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TrueTomHarley

Let us Appreciate Brother Lett

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20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Still, if studying the 1000 years book twice was for misguided purpose

I never said it was for a misguided purpose. I can't say I really agree with the purpose, but that was not a concern of mine at the time. My question was more about whether the book would be re-set (in new molten lead linotype) or whether it would be redone for offset printing, and perhaps even an upgrade to the artwork. Also, we had a set of proofreading changes that were not exactly the kind that that the proofreading department could just fix without permission. (And this has an expensive trickle-down effect on the other language editions.) They would be tied in with editorial decisions.

A few month later, for the updated "Truth" book (1968 edition vs the new 1981 edition), several references to 1975 and the probable imminent end in the 1970's, had to be removed and replaced with new content, but this was a more obvious editorial decision, not a proofreading decision.)

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

fear-mongering

Definitely bad, oppressive, a tool of the insecure. There is a tendency for some to try to lever on this basis. Seems to be a kind of convoluted version of what Peter said at Matthew 26:33.

However, I do not think Paul and Barnabas were fear-mongering when they said “We must enter into the Kingdom of God through many tribulations." Acts 14:22, or Paul when he said to the Hebrews, "In your struggle against that sin, you have never yet resisted to the point of having your blood shed." Heb.12:4.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"obedience to men"

Certainly, Peter counseled vigorously against abject "obedience to men" at Acts 5:29: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.", all the more notable as coming from one who displayed the opposite behaviour at times.

However there is a balance in this matter too, as the same Scriptures counsel children to be "obedient to your parents" (Eph.6:1), slaves to "be obedient in everything to those who are your human masters" (Col.3:22) all faithful Christians to mark those who are "not obedient to our word through this letter" (2Thess.3:14), "to be obedient to governments and authorities" (Titus 3:1); and, finally, to "be obedient to those taking the lead among you" (Heb.13:17).

So when a b(B)rother says obeying instructions in what is of little consequence now is good practice for obeying instructions regarding what might be big consequences later, I don't feel blackmailed by some sort of bogey-man tactic really. I just feel that this is someone giving me a bit of good advice on how to turn a bumpy ride into something a little smoother. But then, that's just me. Everybody has their own way of dealing with and reacting to these things it seems. 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

a new kind of burden that will not appear to reflect the true spirit of Christianity. 

I agree entirely with avoiding the creation of a fear-mongered, man-pleasing attitude.

I endorse fully the need to engage in reflecting Jesus' manner in refreshing our fellow worshippers, working to lighten their "burdens" wherever we can.

But at the same time we need to balance the fact that it was Jesus who instructed a heightened level of alertness in "keeping on  the watch", an avoidance of everyday distractions in maintaining a personally calibrated "whole soul" level of activity, and a full appreciation of the "torture stake" element involved in our acceptance of discipleship. ?

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Many sincere brothers now are quick to defend the mistakes of the past by saying that the number of little ones who were stumbled was actually a good thing. We've seem multiple comments on this forum that make that claim. As the misguided logic goes, with 1975, for example, it was a kind of test that only stumbled those who were serving Jehovah with a date in mind.

so called "SIFTING", very popular terminology in one period of organization used to explain described phenomenon and some other situation when Company caused mass (in greater or less numerous scale) disapproval of some parts of members.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But more people will be disheartened over time without being able to put their finger on exactly why.

excellent observation!

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached. This 416-page book, published in 1973, contains vital information that is even more apropos now than when it was first released.

ohh yes, in fact so many informative ideas and interpretations and double, triple time/way of fulfillment. So complicated to understand what in fact author want to teach. Pictures, parables, yesterday, today, tomorrow,  transmitted meaning and true meaning ....In fact not understandable, only way is to learn by memorization and repeat the text ... and play that you understand :)))))))

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But his idea was that it would somehow make people appreciate the Society, its place in our time, and therefore raise the level of activity................(Proverbs 13:12) 12 Expectation postponed makes the heart sick,. . .

It is also written in some apocrypha :)))))))  

A generation of JW and those who will be JW goes and next  generation of JW and those who will be JW comes,       But the earth remains forever.

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14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Heh, JW letters was addressed to Russian Government, Mr Putin, Medvedev and all other political characters that are in "position to changed" Court decisions. So, how can you considered that as Neutral colored letters? When involved at least two parts of governing,  political and judicial power. 

How do you define Christian Activism, Political Activism, and Civil disobedience?

What you're implying is what? That, Jehovah’s Witnesses send their letters to the Orthodox Church? At some point, making sense reflects upon the one making the argument.

Just like in 1975. It was a self-inflicted incident perpetrated by overzealous individuals that misunderstood the Watchtower message. Therefore, there was NO! Test of faith within the organization. However, there are still confused individuals that continue to mislead the public just as any former witness does to continue a known conspiracy theory. So, there is no need to defend the Watchtower with occurrences that were out of their control.

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5 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

Just like in 1975. It was a self-inflicted incident perpetrated by overzealous individuals that misunderstood the Watchtower message.

I was there, and paying attention.

I know better.

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On 8/16/2018 at 12:07 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

MEANWHILE ... the Brothers and Sisters in Malawi were being tortured and killed because Bro. Knoor, who signed an oath of allegiance to the United States Constitution, before God and man, refused,  when there  was only ONE political party in Malawi at the time, to  let them buy a 25 cent National ID card. (foreigners were exempt from that requirement).

I lived through those times, when it was all going on, as contemporary news !

I REMEMBER IT !

I lived through that time too, but I did not pay a lot of attention to it as I was too young.  However, a friend helped me to dig up a WT from 1975 that seems to make a distinction between an oath binding one to a person, and an oath to a country.

Here are a few excerpts:

......."Thoughtful Christians weigh the matter in the light of Bible principles before taking any sworn oath. In doing so, they find that some oaths are Scripturally unacceptable. For example, in the days of the Third Reich, every German soldier was required to take this oath: “I swear by God this holy oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to the Führer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler, the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and that as a brave soldier I shall be prepared at all times to risk my life for this oath.” A person dedicated to Almighty God cannot bind himself unconditionally to a sinful human, for Jehovah exacts “exclusive devotion.”...........Hence, despite severe persecution, faithful Christian witnesses of Jehovah in Germany would take no oaths binding them to Adolf Hitler......

..........A true Christian, then, would not take an oath that would involve him in the controversies of the world or that would subject him unquestioningly to the will of another human. But what if a nation required that such an oath be taken by those desiring to become citizens? Could a person dedicated to God take an oath of that kind with mental reservations, reasoning that sex, age or other factors would make it unlikely that what had been sworn would ever be required? The individual must decide, but it would not be Christian to make a false oath of any kind, even if refusal to do so resulted in being denied the rights of citizenship.........

........A citizen of the United States of America who desires to travel abroad will find the following oath on a passport application: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations, or purpose of evasion: So help me God.” If an applicant finds this objectionable, he is permitted to strike this oath from the passport application, and he will not be denied the document on that basis"...........

Awake 1975/7/22 page 27-28

Interestingly this was written during the presidency of Nathan Knorr. 

edit:

In addition this is what the proclaimers book  ch 29, page 674 had to say:

In Malawi, there is only one political party, and possession of a party card indicates membership. Although the Witnesses are exemplary in paying their taxes, in harmony with their religious beliefs, they decline to buy political party cards. To do so would be a denial of their faith in God’s Kingdom. Because of this, late in 1967, with the encouragement of government officials, gangs of youths throughout Malawi launched an all-out attack on Jehovah’s Witnesses that was unprecedented in its obscenity and sadistic cruelty. Over a thousand devout Christian women were raped. Some were stripped naked before large mobs, beaten with sticks and fists, and then sexually assaulted by one person after another. Nails were driven through the feet of the men and bicycle spokes through their legs, and then they were ordered to run. Throughout the country their homes, furniture, clothing, and food supplies were destroyed.

Bellow are the translated contents of the card. I cannot verify the correctness of the translation as I do not speak Chichewa

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21 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I wish someone who actually through those times as a participant rather than a bystander could give us a comment.

I wish the same....

I also wish someone could explain what the difference was between what happened in Malawi versus what happened in Mexico. But this is completely off topic here. I apologize @TrueTomHarley but this is JTR's fault, he started it

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3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I was there, and paying attention.

I know better.

Then you must be part of that group that read between the lines (tea leaves) and only paid attention to rumors rather than what the Watchtower message was actually conveying.

The fact that you would mention being there as though your words are golden? Doesn’t prove a thing. I would say, many former witnesses say the same thing with various misleading publications. Some posted here without the proper context. Many of us were around back then. When 5 people, see the same accident? you eventually get different stories. This is why there are investigators to sort that information out, to get to the truth. This is where the investigator separates facts from fiction. Undoubtedly, something that can't see said here with reasoning.

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

I also wish someone could explain what the difference was between what happened in Malawi versus what happened in Mexico.

An interesting topic indeed. This may provide you with some useful background despite it's specific agenda if you haven't seen it before: 

https://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/the-truth-of-the-mexican-military-jehovahs-witnesses/

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5 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

hen you must be part of that group that read between the lines (tea leaves) and only paid attention to rumors rather than what the Watchtower message was actually conveying.

Please all who have magazines and publication that are quoted here to send me confirmation about authenticity.  

“The published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man’s creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E. So six thousand years of man’s existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation. So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man’s existence. How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a Sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee Sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God’s part, for, remember, mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the ‘Lord of the Sabbath,’ to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man’s existence.” Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God 1966 pp.26-30

 
“Does God’s rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man’s existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the “time of the end”.”Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20
 

Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth is completed. Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those that are destroyed then.” Kingdom Ministry 1968 Mar p.4

“The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these “last days” will undergo fulfillment.” Watchtower 1968 May 1 p.272

 

“Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the Sabbath like thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.” Watchtower 1968 Aug 15 p.499

“The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the “last days” have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God.” Awake! 1968 Oct 8 p.13

 

“Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school, to pursue a career with a future in this system of things. Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them “brainwash” you with the Devil’s propaganda to get ahead, to make something of yourself in this world. This world has very little time left! Any “future” this world offers is no future! Wisely, then, let God’s Word influence you in selecting a course that will result in your protection and blessing. Make pioneer service, the full-time ministry, with the possibility of Bethel or missionary service your goal. This is a life that offers an everlasting future!” Watchtower 1969 Mar 15 p.171

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not?Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the “last days” in 1914, Jesus foretold: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”-Matt. 24:34. Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!” Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15

“And now, as the year 1975 opens up, some thousands of the anointed remnant, still alive on this earth, look ahead to realizing that joyful prospect. The increasing “great crowd” of their sheep like companions look forward with them to entering the New Order without interruption of life. In the New Order Jehovah God will add to the “length of days” of the anointed remnant on earth to the point of satisfying the members thereof. It remains to be seen whether they will be yet retained here on earth to see the start of the resurrection of the earthly dead and to meet faithful witnesses of ancient, pre-Christian times. They would enjoy that, before being taken off the earthly scene to the heavenly reward with Christ.” Watchtower 1974 Dec 15 p.766

“Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service.Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” Kingdom Ministry May 1974 p.3 How Are You Using Your Life?

“Today there is a great crowd of people who are confident that a destruction of even greater magnitude is now imminent. The evidence is that Jesus’ prophecy will shortly have a major fulfillment, upon this entire system of things. This has been a major factor in influencing many couples to decide not to have children at this time.” Awake! 1974 Nov 8 p.11

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Stephen Lett quote: "We are supposed to comply with or obey what they tell us. Of course that would be with a proviso unless they tell us to do something that is unscriptural. And of course that would be extremely rare. "

Rare or not but Mr Lett clearly said that GB from time to time tells  members something that in fact  is Unscriptural!

 

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7 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

Then you must be part of that group that read between the lines (tea leaves) and only paid attention to rumors rather than what the Watchtower message was actually conveying.

There is a certain idiot on Twitter who has been trolling me lately and he has not been easy to shake.

I do not converse with such characters, though I do announce to them. He said that he assumes I have JW friends and family that I would lose were it discovered that I had "chatted' (his innacurate word) with him. I replied that 'You know what they say about assuming.'

While continually asking for clarification, he inserts observations such as me belonging to a high-control group. Lately I have taken to responding to all requests for elucidation with a link to somethng I have already written. Such as:

"Here is another one for you,, since you keep asking. I really don't want to do this. But I am in a "high-control" group, as you say, and they are making me: http://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2011/04/what-the-is-next.html

Incredibly, he perseveres, even after I sent him one that I said I called my "troll special." But I can outlast him. I have a lot of posts.

9 hours ago, Anna said:

But this is completely off topic here. I apologize @TrueTomHarley but this is JTR's fault, he started it

This is called 'shifting responsibility.' it is what Adam did.

My thread! My big beautiful thread! How it has been hijacked and divereted! That bad Anna.

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please all who have magazines and publication that are quoted here to send me confirmation about authenticity.  

Thank you for proving my point. Not having the proper context by your submission is exactly what I am referring to.

Some zealous individuals, especially, those remaining from the Bible Student era, concluded that the 6000 years that ended in 1975 by the Watchtower estimation, would be a time to rejoice as a possible or probable time for Armageddon, even though the Watchtower clearly proposed it’s intention about the 6000 years ending in 1975, not Armageddon. That movement actually started in the North, here in Canada.

The best thing for this is to read those articles in there totality, and not assume, as many have done in the past, plus other articles that determine that point, that actually defined that moment in time. It was an exciting time indeed, for those that actually lived through it.

Just keep in mind to read the original copy, not those in questionable sites that add words, or at times cut and paste the wrong information. There are audible out there that profess to illustrate, even the President of the Watchtower mentioned it. A good example of audible manipulation.

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26 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I do not converse with such characters, though I do announce to them. He said that he assumes I have JW friends and family that I would lose were it discovered that I had "chatted' (his innacurate word) with him. I replied that 'You know what they say about assuming.'

Enough said, thank you.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Stephen Lett quote: "We are supposed to comply with or obey what they tell us. Of course that would be with a proviso unless they tell us to do something that is unscriptural. And of course that would be extremely rare. "

Rare or not but Mr Lett clearly said that GB from time to time tells  members something that in fact  is Unscriptural!

I watched the video you posted in it's entirety, and the narrator said that Bro. Lett was a "simpleton".  

I was aware of that word, but had never seen it applied to anyone before, so I looked it up.

Merriam-Webster defines "simpleton" as a person completely devoid of common sense. (paraphrased).

I know several people, completely devoid of any common sense, and have walked that path myself.

After I realized I had been a verifiable simpleton, I was deeply ashamed and embarrassed, and resolved to change. ( Eccl: 12:12)

I think I was in the 8th grade, when that happened .... I remember the moment as if it was yesterday.

Sometimes ... a single word  can hit like a grenade, and blow your perceptive world apart.

"Simpleton"

The piece of the puzzle that explains a LOT.

There is a time in everyone's life when he needs to stop thinking like a child, and grow up.

 

 

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I will put some information here that would clear up of which I have gathered.

To be brief, nowhere does it state on the Jehovah's Witnesses behalf that 1975 is the end of the World, and with the information at hand, we can see that the difference between JWs and their opposites, only one side is telling the truth. 1975, however, was in regards of being vigilant, granted the whole 6,000 of creation since Adam. Plus it would have been hypocrisy on their part if they did in fact state that 1975 is the depend and yet they still continue to preach prior to, on, during and after that specific year, granted the Bible did say a time will come when the spreading of the gospel would cease, and then the end would come, which we can see JWs had never stopped preaching any given point during that time.

I will start with a quote:

Quote

Yes, Witnesses did get carried away with speculation about 1975, but it was never an official position taken by the organization. The date was based on the Bible’s chronology which indicated that 1975 marked the end of 6000 years since the creation of Adam. Many equated Adam’s creation with the beginning of God’s day of rest in Genesis, believing that “day” to be a period of 7,000 years.

The though was that at the end of the 6,000 years, Christ would begin his reign of 1,000 years and restore everything to the conditions on earth God originally intended by the end of Jehovah’s 7,000 year day of rest.

However, that view was corrected in 1974 when it was pointed out that the 7th day of Genesis did not begin until sometime after the creation of Eve and we do not know when she was created. Nor do we know, how long Adam was alone in the Garden, which could have been a considerable length of time. God had him name all the animals, the names of which, suggest he studied them for some time before choosing a name for each.

Later, when God finally determined it was time to create Eve he stated that it was “not good for the man to continue alone” and when he brought her to Adam he exclaimed, “At last” this is bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. All of that suggests the possibility that Adam could have been alone for a long period of time before the creation of Eve and we still would have no idea how long it was after Eve’s creation that the 7th day began.

All that said, it was point out that it is impossible to pinpoint a date which might mark the end of the 6,000 year time period.

None of that condemns Witnesses as false prophets, Jesus told his disciple, to “stay on the watch”and to “keep in anticipation” of his return, and there are many examples in the Bible of faithful ones who had God’s timing wrong and needed to adjust their thinking. Even Jesus closest disciples after spending 3 1/2 years listening to him and hearing his parables about traveling far away and returning with Kingly authority, still asked him just before he ascended if he was, “restoring the Kingdom at this time”.

  • Acts 1:6–7 — So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction

Other information we can turn to is a message written, 1 out of 35, date of origin is March 9, 2010, name Paul Leonard, all messages in this regard can be found here, I will post a book of info, granted I am already lecturous as it is: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/JWquestions-and_answers/conversations/topics/3704

Further information, I had to go to the Arabic channels of where I debated with a Trinitarian before, knowing that Arabic JWs tend to show up there at times, one of them who made a response to the 1975 comment directed us to information, of which can be read below, and clearly all of us, even me, read this information of which I will copy/paste here:

Quote

Did the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses Ever Say That Armageddon Was Definitely Going to Come In 1975?


It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975. Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying:

"The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635

You will notice that this appeared in the Watchtower at the end of 1974 and it was referring to what all Witnesses heard at their conventions that summer. So the facts are that anyone who was saying that Armageddon was definitely going to come by 1975 just was not listening carefully. They were doing what critics still do; rip statements out of context and selectively choose only what they want out of the literature.

I was baptized in 1966 so I was there in 1975 and it had absolutely no effect on me nor anyone in my very large family. The reason that it had no effect on 99.9% of Witnesses is because most were listening to what was really being said and not speculating. They were NOT saying that the end would come in 1975.

The truth is that from the start of discussions on 1975, JWs were told not to speculate on what may or may not happen. For some, it was a real test as to why they were JWs. Was it because of a date to save their necks or were they JWs because they loved and appreciated the Truth and Jehovah?


The year 1975 can be calculated from the prophecies in Daniel and confirmed by the events foretold by Christ. This interpretation is in complete agreement with standard rules of exegesis. So the Witnesses’ teaching on 1975 and our being in the “end times” of wicked human society is completely scriptural.

What was said by Witnesses in the ‘60's and ‘70's is still true: the end is still near and we should live our lives performing “holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah” (2Pet.3:11,12).

From 1914 onward, ALL the facets of the "sign" denoting the “end times” have escalated to an unprecedented degree worldwide (Mt.24:3ff). No other time in history has seen all these things come on one generation in such overwhelming measure. Combining this with the Bible chronology’s pointing to 1975 being about 6,000 years since man’s creation proves beyond any doubt that the world has entered its time of the end!
 

In what I received from him, there was more information:

Quote

1975 and Jehovah's Witnesses - The Claims Vs. The Facts


The following will address in order:

  • 1.) The basis for the original speculation of 1975.
  • 2.) How even though there were articles printed that were speculative in nature, not one ever stated that Armageddon would definitely come in 1975 and, in fact, the then President of the Watchtower Society even instructed his listeners against saying anything as such.
  • 3.) The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's acknowledgement of "implied" statements concerning 1975 and the significance of this.
  • 4.) The reason opposers focus on this issue.
  • 5.) How Jehovah's Witnesses accusers employ two sets of rules.

Understanding the Speculation Concerning 1975

"The Witnesses had long shared the belief that the Thousand Year Reign of Christ would follow after 6,000 years of human history. But when would 6,000 years of human existence end? The book Life Everlasting - In Freedom of the Sons of God, released at a series of district conventions held in 1966, pointed to 1975. Right at the convention, as the brothers examined the contents, the new book triggered much discussion about 1975." - Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom; pg. 104, Declaring the Good News Without Letup (1942-1975)

Speculative Articles, But NO Definite Statement

While there was likely a lot of speculation surrounding 1975 by individuals, no publication ever provided a definitive statement saying that the end would come in 1975. Some articles seemed to say that it was highly possible, though they always qualified it.

For example, the 5/01/67 Watchtower says: 

"...1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait and see." 

Other articles frequently used words such as "may", "could" and "possibly"," regarding this.

Even Frederick Franz (the then President of the WBTS) forcefully instructed:

"... don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975."  - Rejoicing over “God’s Sons of Liberty” Spiritual Feast; Heading: the Year 1975; 10/15/66 Watchtower

Acknowledgement of "Implied" Statements

"In the years following 1966, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses acted in harmony with the spirit of that counsel (of Frederick Franz). However, other statements were published on this subject, and some were likely more definite than advisable. This was acknowledged in The Watchtower of March 15, 1980 (see quote below). But Jehovah’s Witnesses were also cautioned to concentrate mainly on doing Jehovah’s will and not to be swept up by dates and expectations of an early salvation." - Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, pg. 104, Declaring the Good News Without Letup (1942-1975)

"There were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year (1975) was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated." - Watchtower, 1980 March 15, p.17, par. 5

Rather than to be met with scepticism or scorn, these acknowledgements of "implied" statements concerning 1975 is an obvious willingness to attempt to learn from them. And this is a relatively unimportant, non-essential issue when contrasted to the fundamentals Jesus laid out for the knowledge necessary for eternal life! (John 17:3)

In comparison, most other religions will not change doctrines(!) such as the Trinity, the immortal soul, and hell fire even though their own scholars admit that these beliefs are not taught in the Bible. Yet Jehovah's Witnesses have always been willing to change any belief in order to harmonize better with increased knowledge of Scriptural teaching.

The Reason Opposers Focus on 1975

The primary reason Jehovah's Witnesses opposers even bring up the topic of 1975 is to try and paint Jehovah's Witnesses as 'False Prophets'. By a definition of their choosing, Jehovah's Witnesses critics ignore what is meant by the word 'prophet' and what was intended by WBTS publications.
(For more, see: "Have Jehovah's Witnesses ever claimed to be an INSPIRED prophet?)

Though some may accuse the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of claiming otherwise, from the beginning, the Watchtower has never claimed to be "inspired and infallible and without mistakes": 

"[the fact that some have Jehovah's spirit] does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's Witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine, The Watchtower, are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." - May 15, 1947, page 157.

Admittedly, earlier WBTS publications have occasionally published information that was speculative in nature and turned out to be mistaken. However, these publications also had provided accompanying statements cautioning it's readers that there was no certainty as to what would happen.

Two Sets of Rules?

Some critics focus solely on Jehovah's Witnesses concerning non-essential, mistaken expectations about the fulfillment of Bible prophecies. Yet at the same time, they ignore these high-profile religious figures who have made mistakes similar to Jehovah’s Witnesses: 

Protestant leader Martin Luther believed that the Turkish war in his day would be 

"the final wrath of God, in which the world will come to an end and Christ will come to destroy Gog and Magog and set free His own"? [John T. Baldwin, "Luther's Eschatological Appraisal of the Turkish Threat in Eine Heerpredigt -wider den Tuerken - Army Sermon Against the Turks]," Andrews University Seminary Studies 33.2 (Autumn 1995), 196. 

He also said that 

"Christ has given a sign by which one can know when the Judgment Day is near. When the Turk will have an end, we can certainly predict that the Judgment must be at the door". - Ibid, p. 201.

And Methodist founder John Wesley wrote: 

"1836 The end of the non-chronos, and of the many kings; the fulfilling of the word, and of the mystery of God; the repentance of the survivors in the great city; the end of the 'little time,' and of the three times and a half; the destruction of the east; the imprisonment of Satan. - Wesley's Notes of the Bible

In 1950, Billy Graham, the well-known US evangelist, told a rally in Los Angeles: 

“I sincerely believe that the Lord draweth nigh. We may have another year, maybe two years, to work for Jesus Christ, and, Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe it is all going to be over ... two years and it’s all going to be over.” - McLoughlin, William G., 1978 Revivals, Awakenings and Reform. University of Chicago Press. Chicago. pp.185. See also “US News and World Report” (December 19, 1994)

Would opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses condemn Luther, Wesley or Graham as false prophets? Or would they correctly conclude that they had simply interpreted Bible prophecy? Likewise, the WBTS is not a false prophet simply because interpreting Bible prophecy is not the same as prophesying.

There is more information in this regard, a whole lot, but you have to really trend those seas to find it. There was also a video that could have put the final nail in the coffin, for this video had shown proof what is addressed, but former JWs took down the video that was made by a non-denominational Christian who exposed the truth, of what was actually said in 1975 vs. that of what former JWs or disgruntled ones have been saying all this time, since his video is removed due to being flagged by former Jws, you have to ask around and dig up this information itself, at times requires forum grave digging which is a hassle to do.

The video was named Response to anti-JW video concerning 1975, however, this video had been hunted down by former Jws and flagged for removal, even alternative sources they went after to remove the video because it would make JWs in the right and former Jws who had spread their message, in the wrong, proof of alternative link not existing anymore: http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/9873011

Here are some other facts:

  • With regard to 1874: It should be noted that ‘The Watchtower’ was not published until 1879 and Russell himself did not become aware of the 1874 date until 1876! So it was hardly a matter of a failed prediction.
  • With regard to 1914:  "We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them" (emphasis added).
  • With regard to 1925: "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year."
  • With regard to 1975: ‘What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?’ asked Brother Franz. ‘Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah’s witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975.

So at this point, it is safe to say who is really in the right, for anyone can say they were there that faithful day, surely some of us youngens weren't, I myself was born and raised in the 90s and had only a Bible while living on the islands growing up, but there are those who actually paid attention and took note of what was said and done from 1974-1976.

But yes, real information can be found out of a sea of conspiracy and or claims regarding this year people are parading around in falsehood when there is actual truth to this matter.

That being said, anyone can be anywhere at any given point in time, the real question is, did so and so take in the information fully and or did the action correctly?

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There is a basic rule I discovered:

The more words a person uses to explain a simple idea ... the less likely it is to be true.

MANY words are used to hypnotize with boredom ... NOT inform.

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Other than that, the whole letter thing is not a political move, nor was the Soviet Era people or others who were well within the realm of Civil Disobedience.

@Srecko Sostar And no, as stated, it was never a political move in their case, even the Russians do not consider it as such. The only political move that was done in regards to Mevedev and the Kremlin was this, in addition, we also have the big Anti-Corruption Protest that was around the same time as the JW ban and the uproar going on in Ukrainian Churches, more than 1,600 Russians have been arrested

Now if JWs did do any political move, they would not be stamped out prior to the election, they would not be targets by professors who know of their neutrality, hence what took place in Russian schools, they would not be said to disrespect the Nationalist Day held by Russians every year and a list of other things, most importantly, they would have been listed on the FSB website, at least the remnants of it, but all you can see there is political actions being done by Alexei Navalny (Алексей Навальный) followers and others political advocates who are not for the Kremlin and are against it. Lastly, the French NGO would not have robbed them dry prior to and after the Pope's visit with Cyrill.

As for Dmitry Medvedev, he cares for no one but his inner circle, nor is he a religious man (but gives a show for Cyrill), but he is a man who has a strong addiction to the Ducks.

 

FYI, the woman on the thumbnail is dubbed an extremist, but she is a professor of a school who had nothing to do with anyone.

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20 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a basic rule I discovered:

The more words a person uses to explain a simple idea ... the less likely it is to be true.

MANY words are used to hypnotize with boredom ... NOT inform.

Yes, but these are not my own words, these are literal facts. I think the letter is a bit much that is why I linked it. 35 pages is a LONG list of information.

That being said, information is key and knowing information brings for accurate truth to this matter, and this one fits the bill nicely, mainly when said information was of ones who lived during that time, in my case, I was not even existing let alone in the womb of my mother. But hey, for me personally, the 90s was a good time to live in, mainly in the Caribbean islands were no high tech tom foolery was in play at all, just a chilled, cool environment and nothing else, and then.... we moved to America, although the environmental change, as time progresses, things before more tech-dependent.

That being said, it is not that much, usually what I go detailed super power mode I make a page, word after word in seconds. The facts coupled with small bits of information is basic stuff. Furthermore, no one really mention the 6,000 part too, so that has to be said.

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26 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

To be brief, nowhere does it state on the Jehovah's Witnesses behalf that 1975 is the end of the World, and with the information at hand, we can see that the difference between JWs and their opposites, only one side is telling the truth. 1975, however, was in regards of being vigilant, granted the whole 6,000 of creation since Adam.

That would be correct. Witnesses that understood knew well enough not to speculate. Commonsense, should dictate, that if God wanted? He could end this system and bring judgment day, anytime he wishes. But, there is a purpose for a timeline. To give every person a chance to repent, thus saving their mortal soul to the last possible moment of human existence as we know it, and live it.

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