Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?

[HollyW]

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

I wonder what kind of distinction one would use with the originator of disobedience and “sin”? would that fall under absolute or relative. I wonder if anyone can assign a metaphor to a real condition of human life without turning into conjecture and speculation.

 

I wonder if the WTS is SO vague to eliminate an entire race of celestial beings to win an argument, between man.

 

Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 17:3, Leviticus 19:17, 1 John 5:16, Galatians 6:1

 

So the underline original question was: Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?

 

The answer for JW’s is, “YES” God is using the WTS in an appropriate manor to dispense Spiritual Food at the proper time. God has not shown the world cause NOT to. Has man shown the world the side of religious imperfection man has to ALL religions? it has. But is it to better man or religion? or is it, Satan using man to attack God’s loyal ones. That’s the understanding people need to consider.

 

so to all that don't have a clue about scripture, learn!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, Allen.  While it's understood that JWs do believe the WTS is the organization God is using, the question is, why?  From your reply, I'd say you believe it's because it has been dispensing the proper food at the proper time.  Is that right?  You must therefore believe there were times when Jehovah wanted wrong teachings to be dispensed as proper food, such as the identity of the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, for instance.

Was it the proper time from 1879 to 1927 to teach that the child born in Rev. 12 was the antichrist?   

[Shiwiii]

 I would hope, that what you learned in “first” grade would be something entirely different in “Fifth” grade.

 

Hogwash, each grade is built upon the previous,  not changing to something opposite 

[Shiwiii]

The WTS will NOT stagnate on its understanding by NOT putting the proper revision in place.

 

Then why has the child abuse policy stayed the same? Not reporting to authorities on EACH AND EVERY CASE!

[HollyW]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

While I appreciate the early teaching of the bible students. They themselves had ventured on a new concept of bible understanding.

This journey was still in its early stages of conception. Just as any secular school that teaches. I would hope, that what you learned in “first” grade would be something entirely different in “Fifth” grade.

For JW”s there was a revision that began in 1931. So, the inquiry’s about the bible student movement therefore applies to the bible student movement in my opinion.

 

There are “Hundreds” of Bible Student Branches throughout the world. I am confident they will answer any questions you might have about Pastor’s Russell up to his death in 1916. And even though the bible students don’t acknowledge Brother Rutherford as a bible student, he indeed finished his career as a bible student. Just keep in mind, the bible student was comprised of many associations and Brother Russell took charge of the People’s Pulpit. While many began to splinter after 1919.

 

For Jehovah’s witnesses through the diligence of the Slave Class has gathered and understand a better conceptual parameter.

 

That’s why I don’t confuse people by using different ideologies through publications to get a scriptural point across.

 

Read The Watchtower: 6/1/2015 p.14

 

If you note. The parameter of understanding has not changed other for simplicity…since 1950 with the Watchtower: 10/15/1950

 

⁶ The word pneuʹma has the basic meaning of invisible, active force, and the new translation brings it out in five ways. First, as an unseen force in action, whether the wind or an impersonal spirit: We read: “The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.” (John 3:8, NW) Second, as an unseen, heavenly person: “God is a Spirit.” (John 4:24, NW) Third, as a mental attitude or inclination: Whereas the King James says, “The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit,” the new version says: “The Lord be with the spirit you show.” (2 Tim. 4:22, NW; also Phil. 4:23, NW) Fourth, as a moving or inspiring force: Instead of using the uncertain expression “in the spirit”, John is made to say: “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.” (Rev. 1:10, NW) This shows John came under the spirit’s power. Fifth, as an utterance inspired by an unseen source: “Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. this is the antichrist’s inspired expression which you have heard was coming.” (1 John 4:1-3, NW) “And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth.. . They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”—Rev. 16:13, 14, NW. [p.386 par.6]

 

Now while, opposers use Matthew 24:45 as a starting point. It is NOT the only application God’s inspired Word uses to determine if one is qualified to undertake the responsibilities of headship. That is true with an anointed witness, Elders, etc.

 

Was it not in early biblical history, those that were anointed by oil were given that responsibility to care for the people of the nation? Did it just pertain to the “King”? did Christ NOT appoint the Apostles to continue his work. Did The Apostles NOT leave instruction by Christ that those that would be appointed would have more responsibilities than the Flock? And would be subjected to a graver punishment by GOD? for excepting that greater responsibility, and if they mislead the flock?

 

Old Testament

 

Exodus 29:7 Context: Consecration of the Priests

 

1 Chronicles 16:21-22 Context: David's Psalm of Thanksgiving

 

Psalm 45:7 Context: Your Throne is Forever

 

Isaiah 61:1 Context: The Year of the Lord's Favor / PROPHET

 

 

 

New Testament

 

Luke 4:18 Context: The Rejection at Nazareth / APOSTLE

 

2 Corinthians 1:21 Context: Paul's Change of Plans / I hope you can see the irony in modern’s time application of this context.

 

James 5:14 Context: The Prayer of Faith / CHURCH ELDER

 

1 John 2:27 context: Continue in Him

 

There are many instance one might fill the role of head of the congregation. The point would be, to understand the intention and context Christ meant to have his Fathers words followed by obedience. That takes a life time, and something you can’t learn in a school setting. It comes from God’s Holy Spirit.

 

That’s why the Governing Body also looks at Acts 6:3 Context: The Choosing of the Seven

 

JW’s strive to learn bible truth. Even if it means receiving a new understanding by God’s Holy Spirit. The WTS will NOT stagnate on its understanding by NOT putting the proper revision in place. The WTS bases everything through our constitution the Holy Bible, that's our doctrine.

 

No, Allen, what I learned in first grade was still just as true as when I was in fifth grade.  Your analogy doesn't work, does it.

Notice how often current WT publications refer back to the early days of the WTS.  The 2014 book "God's Kingdom Rules" even invites you to imagine yourself back in 1914 in the dining hall at the NYC headquarters.  And the brochure "Who Are Doing Jehovah's Will" says that it was Russell and his group of Bible Students who were being blessed with spiritual insight by Jehovah to "rediscover" Bible truths. 

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jehovahs-will/bible-truth-rediscovered/

Yet the bulk of what they were supposedly rediscovering has been discarded by JWs today---so much for the new concept of Bible understanding you spoke of.

It's good that JWs are striving to learn Bible truth because they've got quite a ways to go yet....a good place to start is with the Bible itself and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you.  The WTS cautions that if you rely on just the Bible you will believe in the Trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, and celebrating Christmas.

As to my example of what Russell and his followers were led to believe about the child born in Rev. 12---you now say it was the Messianic Kingdom but when it was being born your church was saying it was the antichrist.  In your relatively new book, "God's Kingdom Rules", that event is pointed back to and the incorrect idea is given that Russell and his followers were being prepared for it.  But how could that be when they thought it was the birth of the antichrist?

[HollyW]

47 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Well I guess your school was as ignorant as you are now. In my school you learned something new each grade!!!!!!!

 

According to who, You, please!!!!!!! read your own hostile post!!!!!!!!

Learning something new is quite different from having learned something false in first grade that had to be corrected in fifth grade.

Has the WTS dropped its required two witnesses to child molestation?  That would be real progress.

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Well I guess your school was as ignorant as you are now. In my school you learned something new each grade!!!!!!!

 

According to who, You, please!!!!!!! read your own hostile post!!!!!!!!

SO What You Are Telling Me Is That You Learned Things Opposite Of What You Learned From Grade To grade? Not a building block from the grade before? Sad. Education is supposed to be a progression upon what you already learned, not a complete reversal of the grade before.

[HollyW]

9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

 

Well I’m sorry to read you weren’t learning in an appropriate pace. Secular school teach different subjects at the proper time. But if you can’t understand that, I understand why? So regardless if my example didn’t meet your agenda, the simple truth is, we learned something new at the proper time. That is also true with your bible understanding. Continue learning, perhaps some might believe what you’re saying, but true followers of the one and only true God, your standard would be lacking knowledge.

 

What, matters are bible truth, not personal opinions from those that embellish in their own glory by pretending to win an untenable argument of faith.

 

With that said, you have your opinion on your faith, while I have my opinion on mine. Once again, we appreciate what the bible students ventured to correct from Christendom. However, if you speak to one of them, they deny the reformation of the bible students. So I guess You don’t have that understanding either.

 

Allen, perhaps reading comprehension wasn't your best subject.   As I said,  learning something new is quite different from having learned something false in first grade that had to be corrected in fifth grade.  Let me give you a 'for instance' to help shed light on what I said.  In first grade 2 + 2 was 4.  In fifth grade it was still the same even when other math concepts were taught. 

Do you understand?

I agree with you that it is Bible truth that matters, not personal opinions about wrong expectations or wrong understandings.  When a religious leader says that Bible truth is the child born in Rev 12 is the antichrist, would that be something Jesus would consider food in due season?  The WTS says he would and did, selecting the WTS as God's sole channel of communication to mankind when they were teaching it.

Does that appear to be reasonable to you?

In every single child molestation case there are already two witnesses: the victim and the predator.  The men on the WTS governing body need to know that and report every accusation to the proper authorities.  They want to hide behind an OT law that was never, ever applied to the molestation or rape of a child.  If they are not in tune with Jehovah's heart on this, they need to step down from their leadership positions.

[HollyW]

8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

No, you are saying that. Reversals, How childish!!!!!

Hmm!!!! Really, so what you are saying…that in first grade, you learned science, or at least your teacher started preparing you for science instead of the ABC’s, reading and writing skills. You went to a lavish school. Some of us weren’t born with a silver spoon in our mouth, or a perfect community as yours. Mindless!!!!

 

But I guess that’s why I learned fairy tales in First Grade, just like Santa Clause was real according to the books. Instead of a gimmick to push toy sales to children. If you believe on what you are saying? You and HollyW deserve each other. I’ll continue living in the real world, where people think.

 

I understand you are lashing out at us personally due to your own frustration, Allen, but that's hardly conducive to having a productive discussion.  In the end you are casting the WTS leaders as first grade teachers who were teaching falsehoods to their followers for decades, and still are.  Is that really what you want to do?

It's interesting you bring up Santa Claus....I was taught he is not real but Jesus is, and Christmas is the celebration of his birth. Please don't tell me JWs don't buy toys for their children.   Just in case you aren't aware of it, your religion celebrated Christmas until the 1920's.   The following was the view of the founder of your religion:

[ZWT 1904, 12/1 p.364] Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate--"Christmas Day."

You can download and read the article at this website: http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/

 

 

[Shiwiii]

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Now, your personal opinion about the two witness rule, that who wrote it in scripture, that neither you or Shwiii seem interested in, and “refuse” to acknowledge where it's written, is something you have been blinded by the vast assumptions you have read, by opposer, ex-witnesses that lie now to collect a pay check that are pressured by some crooked lawyer? I have no doubt there are legitimate claims, and I have been to a few. YOU PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT. THAT’S NOT THE WAY IT WORKS IN ALL OCCASIONS. It is up to the body of Elders to use their “BEST” judgment on how to proceed with a sensitive matter. Even the ARC was blinded by ignorant opposers. Ex-witnesses that called and emailed them, by thinking…this would be the end of the WTS, they attempted to sensationalize a situation that ultimately the ARC found out it was full of “Lies” and “distortions” just like you are deceptively portraying now.

You either failed to do your research or choose to bury your head in the sand. Mr. Jackson admitted that their policy was flawed, but he wanted the ARC to force mandatory reporting so that the burden would not be on the society. So Mr. Jackson acknowledged that the ARC was not full of "lies", but rather correct. 

 

 

[HollyW]

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

 

Oh! I understand comprehension. I just don't misjudge and misunderstand someone, and then try to clean up my mistake with nonsense.

 

You're do that right now.

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As far as the WTS being a channel to God concept. How is it any different than the “POPE” saying the same thing, or any other religion such as the Mormons. 

Thank you for that astute comparison, Allen.  The Catholic Pope and the Mormons being as wrong as the WTS is doesn't make the WTS right, it just make it as wrong as they are.

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Your ridicule, of one religion is what makes no sense. Just like the workaround argument you make with the school progression. Yes, 2+2=4 at any level, Commonality was NOT what I started with, you did. My expression is based on being taught at a given pace. You are NOT taught physics in first grade. So while I am amused by your continued deception, it isn’t fooling anyone.

So 2+2=4 in first and every grade, but you “didn’t learn” 1^4+2^4+3^4+ or + n, = (n2 + n) in first grade. So it’s a progressive movement not a regressive movement. The WTS doesn’t regressive when it comes to bible truth.

 

The WTS does regress in its teachings. Take the identity of the faithful slave, for instance.  It began by teaching that the faithful slave was all of the 144,000.  Then it changed and taught that Russell alone was the faithful slave.  Then they went back to the former teaching, regressing back to the 144,000 being the faithful slave, even saying it was doing violence to the scriptures to exclude any of the 144,000 from the faithful slave designation.  Now they have narrowed it again to just the handful of men on the governing body.

They've done the same with the generation of Matthew 24:34, going back and forth on it being worldly people, then the anointed, then worldly people, then the anointed.

 

[HollyW]

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Now, your personal opinion about the two witness rule, that who wrote it in scripture, that neither you or Shwiii seem interested in, and “refuse” to acknowledge where it's written, is something you have been blinded by the vast assumptions you have read, by opposer, ex-witnesses that lie now to collect a pay check that are pressured by some crooked lawyer? I have no doubt there are legitimate claims, and I have been to a few. YOU PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT. THAT’S NOT THE WAY IT WORKS IN ALL OCCASIONS. It is up to the body of Elders to use their “BEST” judgment on how to proceed with a sensitive matter. Even the ARC was blinded by ignorant opposers. Ex-witnesses that called and emailed them, by thinking…this would be the end of the WTS, they attempted to sensationalize a situation that ultimately the ARC found out it was full of “Lies” and “distortions” just like you are deceptively portraying now. 

It's shameful that victims of abuse have to face this kind of condemnation from JWs such as yourself who are trying to protect the WTS at all costs.  It's difficult enough for a victim of abuse to come forward.  With this kind of criticism awaiting them, it's a wonder any of them have brought this profound fault within the WTS to light.

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So unless you have personal knowledge on what goes on behind a judicial committee, STOP speculating. You are clueless, on what an Elders responsibility is toward the flock with such matters that require wisdom and discernment. The Governing Body can’t be everywhere. The flock book, is a general guideline book, for Elders to understand or have a basic concept on how to proceed with matters.

From the lawsuits brought against them, they are failing miserably.  And from your attitude, they've failed to instill in you their goal of "treating such ones with thoughtfulness, tenderness, and kindness." [2010 Shepherd the Flock of God, p.53]

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So your ignorance continues when you “STATE” my religion celebrated Christmas. My religion stopped that practice. You continue to deceive by joining two different ideologies, just like you are incorrect when you state I am frustrated. I am here to show, whoever comes to this website that read exaggerated lies, and fairy tales, they are just that, conjecture by uneducated bible and cluesless people that are pandering on their own ego. I’m not here to discuss, I here to set the record straight.

I hope that at some point you try to use truth to set the record straight.  Your religion did celebrate Christmas, and were doing so at a time you say Jesus was inspecting them and finding them "faithful and wise", dispensing spiritual food in due season.  Was that the season to be celebrating Christmas?

 

[HollyW]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

It’s a shame, that you use such exploits to exaggerate what truly goes on with sensitive matters. And just to win an argument. With others, you seem intelligent, it’s a shame with real issues you don’t use it.

If you only knew. That just make it more difficult for those that truly have a claim, and governments have to sip through garbage to get to the truth. Sadly, in cases of the WTS, opposers, ex-witnesses, and people riddled with apostasy.

It's obvious you don't have a clue about child abuse.  

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Why don’t you give it a shot at asking any bible Student, and stop attempting to unite the two, just because they used the same publishing house, NOT their ideologies. I hope someday you will stop lying and using the bible for your evil deeds.

The only way your statements make any sense is if you don't know the history of your own religion.