Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?

[Shiwiii]

13 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

 

So your simple hypothesis, if perfection can be spotted or not is too vain. A perfect being can have spots and a spotted being can be influenced by sin.

 

Then it is not perfect. Perfection has no flaw. You cannot create a flaw within a perfect diamond, either it is there or it is not. 

You can choose to believe that something is perfect and can still not be perfect by choice, if you wish. But, in that scenario the perfection is a mirage and really didn't exist, you just chose to believe it was.

 

13 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Can Satan corrupt free will? Jesus answered it by NOT being influenced by the Devil. So, that proves that MAN does have the ability NOT to be influence by evil and therefore can return to perfection, and one day will.

 Jesus became a man, but His qualities and abilities are far beyond what a normal man can do. 

If your belief that it is possible for a human to be perfect, why has there NEVER been a person who attained this? 

[HollyW]

On 7/27/2016 at 1:32 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Do you not think Adam was perfect when he rebelled against Jehovah and attempted to destroy his own offspring?

 Adam was perfect but you are wrong to accuse him of attempting to destroy his offspring. 

Quote

They do not have an excuse. That's why "... fire came down out of heaven and consumed them" Rev 20:9

Yet they are perfect JWs with more or less a thousand years of studying WTS publications to have reached that perfect state, and they are persuaded to war against other JWs.

I'll start a thread about this WTS teaching that a vast number of JWs will be persuaded to go to war against their fellow JWs, and we can get into more detail about it, if you'd like.

In the meantime, I notice you haven't responded to the question in the OP, maybe you could do so now:

Why do you believe the WTS is the organization Jehovah is using?

 

[HollyW]

On 7/28/2016 at 1:43 PM, Shiwiii said:

Nope, not robots at all.

My question to you to clear this up a bit would be what is perfection? 

Is perfection having an internal flaw? blemish? Or is it perfect without spot?

The WTS definition of perfect in this instance is to "meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually."

[w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!  

[HollyW]

On 7/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, Jesus.defender said:

Jehovah has NO organization on Earth. We cannot see this in the Bible at all.

Well, JWs believe the WTS is Jehovah's organization here on earth and that's why they are willing to accept teachings from it that later turn out to be wrong.  That's why I've asked them: Why do you believe the WTS is the organization Jehovah is using?

I was expecting to get more than just "why not?" but so far that seems to be it.

[JWTheologian]

On 7/29/2016 at 8:20 AM, Shiwiii said:

Then it is not perfect. Perfection has no flaw. You cannot create a flaw within a perfect diamond, either it is there or it is not. 

You can choose to believe that something is perfect and can still not be perfect by choice, if you wish. But, in that scenario the perfection is a mirage and really didn't exist, you just chose to believe it was.

By who’s standard of perfection are you referring to. A diamond cut can achieve an excellent outlook, the embodiment therefore is only to the cutter to decide his work is flawless and perfect.

In reality, another diamond cutter can concede there are micro flaws in that perfect diamond.

Therefore, you are implying your hypothesis is above GOD’s LAW, by suggesting God’s creation was indeed not perfect. At what point in time did you event a time machine to come to this conclusion? At what point in time did GOD declare you a governed deity to challenge him, through what… science? Sorcery? That is the only imagery afforded.

On 7/29/2016 at 8:20 AM, Shiwiii said:

Jesus became a man, but His qualities and abilities are far beyond what a normal man can do. 

If your belief that it is possible for a human to be perfect, why has there NEVER been a person who attained this? 

That would be the point. The only Perfect being by his sacrifice was killed by who, imperfect humans. So we had an example for excellence, until someone decided there was a flaw in that man. Was it for the GOOD of the people or for their personal gain. That’s what makes Scripture valid, and misguided philosophy not.

[Evacuated]

On 7/29/2016 at 15:20, Shiwiii said:

Perfection has no flaw

This maybe a common dictionary definition, but is just inadequate when dealing with the biblical concept. 

This is clear, for example, when looking at Heb 2:10; Heb 5:9 relating to Jesus.

Also, in considering the application of Jesus words at Matt 5:48 and Matt 19:21.

So any argumentation using this rather narrow English definition in discussing the biblical concept is, quite simply,.....flawed.

[Shiwiii]

19 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

That would be the point. The only Perfect being by his sacrifice was killed by who, imperfect humans. So we had an example for excellence, until someone decided there was a flaw in that man. Was it for the GOOD of the people or for their personal gain. That’s what makes Scripture valid, and misguided philosophy not.

 

So now you agree that there has only been ONE perfect, Jesus. 

There goes the theory that Adam and Eve were perfect.

[Witness]

On 7/28/2016 at 10:05 AM, JWTheologian said:

The governing body, are just fellow Christians striving what every Christian strives for, everlasting life. The only ones holding the GB on a pedestal are people like you.

JWT, are you telling me that these men are viewed as no different than any anointed one in the organization? 

Here is the situation with the anointed throughout the organization.  Compare to those labeled as the “faithful and discreet slave”, just your fellow Christians.

^“ Do those of the other sheep need to know the names of all those who are anointed today? The short answer is no. Why not? Because even if someone has received the heavenly calling, that person has received only an invitation, not a final confirmation of the reward. That is why Satan raises up “false prophets . . . to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.” w16 January pp. 22-27

You certainly know the names of the GB members.  Have they received their final confirmation of a reward as “just fellow Christians”?  1 Cor 4:8

 ^“In addition, anointed Christians do not view themselves as being part of an elite club.”  (same article)

To view some “uninspired” ones as “faithful and discreet”, recognized by all, then tell the rest of Christ’s priesthood to be viewed as nonexistent is hypocrisy and a “trampling of God’s Temple” as I have previously brought out.  Eph 4:25; 1 Cor 12:18  Should we assume that the GB knows how God has placed each member of the Body?  Or as 1 Cor 12:18 says, it is just as God pleases?  You can choose to ignore this, or choose to recognize the profaning of His Temple by those who expect obedience to them – the Gentile elder body.   Ezek 44:7; Rom 2:29; Matt 24:15,16

“Worse still, if they received special treatment, anointed Christians might find it difficult to remain humble” (same article)

Can the GB “remain humble” as they exalt themselves, lording it over their brothers?  If you think it’s  possible, then why are their own bodily members in Christ expected to be obedient to them?

Notice this quote, referencing the “modern day priestly class” but efficiently leaving out the entire anointed Body (1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 1:5,6) and directing full attention to the Governing Body:

How grateful we can be for the services provided by the modern-day priestly class! “The faithful and discreet slave” takes the lead in providing timely spiritual food that helps us to discern the difference between what is unclean and what is clean in Jehovah’s eyes.  W 07/8/1 p 8,11

For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.  Gal 6:3

Each anointed one has, as his or her head – Christ!  All sheep have as their head, Christ!  Not a GB who demands obedience to them!  3 John 1:9-11; Luke 22:25-27  If one in the anointed Body were to "lead" another in truth, it is IN TRUTH, and not shifting doctrine or failed dates, or into the enforcement of an organization that is assumed to be salvation.  Matt 7:15-20

While you call it unity that the Body of Christ and all sheep are fed a spiritual food from the “slave” without question; not even considering the possibility of what is being served as faulty, lies, errors, as the organization has a history of; in reality, the organization definitely classifies the Body, dividing the anointed from the GB; blocking their headship in Christ by expected obedience to a false priesthood and the GB.    God’s Chosen ones are not to sit back and allow 7 men to “feed the sheep” without using their right to question failed and faulty doctrine.  Mal 2:7; 1 John 2:20-23; 2 Cor 11:12

There is no understanding or recognition of each part of the Body, or how love between all is love shared in the vine of Christ through Holy Spirit.  1 Cor 12:1-31; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 1:10  This is proven as soon as another anointed one questions these false prophets on a doctrine – the wicked slave is exposed through their mandatory disfellowshiping doctrine.  These questioning ones become hated and determined to be an brother.  John 8:40,47; Matt 23:32; Zech 7:11

“Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.  We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.  Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:13-15

An efficient “steward” of God’s anointed spiritual household, (Eph 2:20-22) one that provides and gleans for all and from all as a true steward would, can prove to be either fit or unfit; faithful or wicked; all determined on their treatment of the other members in the Chosen Body. 1 Tim 3:15; Luke 12:42; 1 Pet 4:17; Luke 12:37,45,45 The GB has concealed the truth in these matters.   In order to hide their own undoing, your uninspired GB has decided Jesus’ parables are nothing but stories and warnings …

“Jesus was not there foretelling that an evil slave class would arise. Rather, he was warning the faithful slave not to display the traits of an evil slave.” w15 3/15 pp. 19-24

…yet the truth has come to the fore.  They willingly condone the “beating” of their own brother for their expected acquiescing in silence, also for their rejecting idolatry toward an “image”, and doctrines made by man.  Rom 14:4; Matt 24:48,49; Isa 28:28; Rev 17:6

^“ If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?  And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.” 1 John 4:20,21

Each slave of Christ is to be responsible stewards of the word. 1 Cor 4:1,2;Luke 12:48  The anointed in the congregations have fallen asleep to their assignment because of the unfit spiritual food that they take in.  Matt 25:5; Rev 3:3

“But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.  Matt 25:5

These virgins, upon awakening must chose the “oil” for their lamps – should they buy it from a GB who “sells oil” or will it be from their own“reserve” and further Holy spirit directly from Christ? Matt.25:9,10; Rev.13:17 (Rev 19:20; 20:4)

The confirmation that you are under the thumb of a wicked slave is found in the changing doctrine of “generation”, changing in order to “fit” the 1914 supposed arrival of Christ’s Kingdom.

“But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards”  Matt 24:48,49

This 1914 doctrine of the “birth” of God’s Kingdom seems to be followed by labor pains.  Since when does birth come before labor?

Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

“Jesus answered, “Be careful! Don’t let anyone fool you.  Many people will come and use my name. They will say, ‘I am the Messiah.’ And they will fool many people.  You will hear about wars that are being fought. And you will hear stories about other wars beginning. But don’t be afraid. These things must happen before the end comes.  Nations will fight against other nations. Kingdoms will fight against other kingdoms. There will be times when there is no food for people to eat. And there will be earthquakes in different places. These things are only the beginning of troubles, like the first pains of a woman giving birth.”  Matt 24:4-8

The “Messiah” is salvation (Yahweh is salvation), yet the organization declares itself as salvation.  Acts 4:12

“Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation”  W/81/11  p 212

1914 is part of the lie spewed out by the dragon, like a flood after the “woman” covenant – those Chosen ones in Christ, and his seed.  Could it be that we must humble ourselves and realize that we have been fooled just as thousands have over the centuries by listening to false prophets? 

“And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”  Rev 12:17

The GB, your “fellow Christians” foster a long history of misleading lies that continue to transform into “new light”. Isa 5:20 How can they stand before Christ comfortably knowing the organization has misled thousands of lives with unfulfilled dates and changing doctrine?  Mark 9:42   Here are a few, taught with “no doubt”, and with the Lord’s “stamp of his seal”.  This equates to false prophesy.

"The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D." (Prophecy, 1929, p. 65)

 "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line.... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." (Watchtower, p. 150, May 15, 1922)

 "In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation." (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, p29, 1966 [Note: 4026 BC to 1975AD = 6000 years])

“But the prophet who dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’  You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?’  When a prophet speaks in the Lord’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”  Deut 18:20-22

Freedom is not found in the organization, but only in Christ.  False prophesy, idolatry, and misleading Christ’s sheep are not how one abides in his word. 

“Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”  John 8:31,32

"Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, to shed blood, to destroy people, and to get dishonest gain. 28 Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ when the Lord had not spoken. " Ezek 22:26-28

http://pearl-finetrees.blogspot.com/

 

 

[JWTheologian]

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So now you agree that there has only been ONE perfect, Jesus. 

There goes the theory that Adam and Eve were perfect.

Incorrect!!!!!!! Don't put words on peoples mouth, that's so deceptive!!!!!!!!!! But then again, that's you.

That stayed “TRUE” to his Fathers definition of what a perfect man should be, Without Sin?

Yes, Jesus achieved that goal, however as perfect humans Adam and Eve failed, even though Satan used the same method to disrupt perfection through evil.

So let’s not start twisting words around again. If anything, at least use the secular definition of the word.

"SIN"

an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

"a sin in the eyes of God"

synonyms:immoral act, wrong, wrongdoing, act of evil/wickedness, transgression, crime, offense, misdeed,

[Shiwiii]

2 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Incorrect!!!!!!! Don't put words on peoples mouth, that's so deceptive!!!!!!!!!! But then again, that's you.

That stayed “TRUE” to his Fathers definition of what a perfect man should be, Without Sin?

 

Yes, Jesus achieved that goal, however as perfect humans Adam and Eve failed, even though Satan used the same method to disrupt perfection through evil.

 

So let’s not start twisting words around again. If anything, at least use the secular definition of the word.

 

"SIN"

an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

"a sin in the eyes of God"

synonyms:immoral act, wrong, wrongdoing, act of evil/wickedness, transgression, crime, offense, misdeed,

You acknowledged and even said that Jesus was the only Perfect. 

Here is your statement,  if you happen to have forgot:

The only Perfect being by his sacrifice was killed by who, imperfect humans. 

You said it, I didn't have to put words in your mouth!

[JWTheologian]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

JWT, are you telling me that these men are viewed as no different than any anointed one in the organization? 

 

Here is the situation with the anointed throughout the organization.  Compare to those labeled as the “faithful and discreet slave”, just your fellow Christians.

We view the anointed as fellow worshippers of Jehovah. We don't heighten their status just because in the WTS writing, they are seen with a greater responsibility. They, don’t think of themselves that way. However, since they hold a higher standard of excellence and morality? GOD does hold them to a different standard just as he did with the Apostles and Prophets(MEN). Your distortion implies, they cannot possibly hold that calling of being anointed by "GOD" not “MAN” to undertake those responsibilities.

Remember, by your own words, you believe you have that undertaking and responsibility. The question is? Who appointed you, to say the Governing Body cannot be considered to be appointed by the Holy Spirit even by your biblical quotations, that’s exactly what they follow. The Constitution of the JW’s Doctrine.

ARC: Quotation:

42 Justice Donald Stewart: Q. Do you, as members of the Governing Body, regard

43 yourselves as being appointed by Jehovah God or under the

44 capacity or authority of Jehovah God?

45 Geoffrey Jackson: A. What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our

46 brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility

47 to guard or to be guardians of doctrine. So just the same

.14/08/2015 (155) 15936 G W JACKSON (Mr Stewart)

Transcript produced by DTI1

with elders, they are referred to as being appointed by

2 holy spirit, as you probably are aware, we believe that

3 means that when an elder is in harmony with what the Bible

4 says is required of an elder, then he is appointed by the

5 holy spirit. So the same is true with the Governing Body.

 

The Governing Body follows the pattern set by “the apostles and elders in Jerusalem” in the first century, who made important decisions on behalf of the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15:2) Like those faithful men, the members of the Governing Body are not the leaders of our organization. They look to the Bible for guidance, acknowledging that Jehovah God has appointed Jesus Christ as the Head of the congregation. —1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23.

 

Once again You can recite anything you want to apply your distorted understanding. but until you learn scripture in a way NOT to interject your own personal opinion. Your personal views are contradictory and accepting of your own fallacy parameters. Perhaps you should reread what you wrote, and apply your ideology to yourself.

I understanding your entire argument is predicated in an illusion of 7 men giving out their own doctrine. The Jim Jones style. Perhaps you subscribe to that ideology, but JW’s don’t. We have a responsibility to understand scripture individually to come to the same understanding as subscribed by Christ instruction. Jesus never advised anyone to read scripture to get different outcomes. That’s just nonsense.

Just as the nonsensical view you want people to believe, that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, think their better than their fellow believers. I don’t know when you started misleading people, but…I’m here to set the record straight. They as men are not greater, but they do have a greater responsibility to the flock. I’ve had dinner with some of them, and they’ve stayed in my Parents’ house long ago. They seemed to be normal human beings to me.

[JWTheologian]

11 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

You acknowledged and even said that Jesus was the only Perfect. 

Here is your statement,  if you happen to have forgot:

The only Perfect being by his sacrifice was killed by who, imperfect humans. 

You said it, I didn't have to put words in your mouth!

I also stated:JWT: In what context. Secular or biblical. One has to define the parameters. Someone mentioned if ADAM was perfect. The answer was “YES” God’s creation was made without sin and free to think for themselves. It was only after the introduction of evil intent that man was corrupted and manifested to imperfection through sin.

So lets not start distorting my context by misleading the "facts". That's childish.

Definition of Childish: silly and immature