Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community

[Queen Esther]

@The Librarian  YES?

[Witness]

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But John Clarke is not some naive kid. He has been around the block. He knows insincerity when he sees it. He does regular Bible reading and he knows it is time to apply Isaiah 52:11: 'Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean'

Tom, you do know that Isa 52:11 is quoted by Paul in 2 Cor 6:16-18 of which I listed previously and refers to the Temple, God’s priesthood – right? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you  didn’t realize it, not that you had reprehensible motives.  Isa 52:1 gives us even further insight as to why these priests must “come out” and quit touching the unclean thing.

“Awake, awake!
Put on your strength, O Zion;
Put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city!
For the uncircumcised and the unclean
Shall no longer come to you.” Isa 52:1

Shake yourself from the dust, arise;
Sit down, O Jerusalem!
Loose yourself from the bonds of your neck,
O captive daughter of Zion!  Isa 52:2

 “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.”  Rom 2:28,29

Paul is speaking of spiritual Israel, the Temple -  the anointed ones.  In verse 1 of Isa 52, the “uncircumcised” are spiritual “Gentiles” and is the elder body “representing” the royal priesthood, known scripturally as the “disgusting thing standing in the holy place”.  Matt 24:15

Verse 2 indicates this Temple/priesthood must “obey” under all circumstances, the elder body, thus they are ‘chained’. 

“Now therefore, what have I here,” says the Lord,
“That My people are taken away for nothing?
Those who rule over them
Make them wail,” says the Lord,
“And My name is blasphemed continually every day.
⁶ Therefore My people shall know My name;
Therefore they shall know in that day
That I am He who speaks:
‘Behold, it is I.’”  Isa 52:5,6

If the organization was truly “earthly Zion”, God’ priesthood would be guiding the sheep righteously as He intended, with his true priesthood.  Both male and female anointed ones would teach/guide/comfort as one body under Christ and in Christ’s love.  Does any JW realize that under such circumstances, the ARC would not be an issue?  Gal 3:28

“Your watchmen shall lift up their voices,
With their voices they shall sing together;
For they shall see eye to eye
When the Lord brings back Zion.
⁹ Break forth into joy, sing together,
You waste places of Jerusalem!
For the Lord has comforted His people,
He has redeemed Jerusalem.
¹⁰ The Lord has made bare His holy arm
In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see
The salvation of our God.”  Isa 52:8-10

Matt 24:15-22

 

 

 

 

[Ann O'Maly]

15 hours ago, The Librarian said:

@TrueTomHarley let's not impute bad motives on the part of others. 

honey rather than vinegar.....

And it would be nice not to be subject to ad hominem rants by those who'd rather not engage in rational discussion. 

[TrueTomHarley]

10 hours ago, Witness said:

 

 

10 hours ago, Witness said:

Tom, you do know that Isa 52:11 is quoted by Paul in 2 Cor 6:16-18 of which I listed previously and refers to the Temple,

I think we will not communicate well because we weigh things differently. I put much stock in what has been accomplished. You, as near as I can tell, put no stock in it. 

If the GB's take on Isaiah and other verses were not valid, they would not have 8 million persons gathered as Christ's disciples to show for it. They would, instead, be eight separate cranks, reduced to posting on the internet threads of others, trying to tear them down.

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

And it would be nice not to be subject to ad hominem rants by those who'd rather not engage in rational discussion. 

It's a big word and I'm not sure what it means. Possibly JTR knows.

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

And it would be nice not to be subject to ad hominem rants by those who'd rather not engage in rational discussion. 

It's a big word and I'm not sure what it means. Possibly JTR knows.

Not sure which 'big' word you're referring to. 'Rational'? For definitions of 'big' words, Google is your friend 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think we will not communicate well because we weigh things differently. I put much stock in what has been accomplished. You, as near as I can tell, put no stock in it. 

If anything, Tom, I appreciate your addressing me personally. 

John 3:12; John 18:36; Gal 4:3; Matt 6:19-21; Col 3:1,2; Col 2:8; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 11:3,4

[TrueTomHarley]

21 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 

"let's not impute bad motives on the part of others."

The trouble is, if we're not allowed to discern motive after 8 pages and countless posts, what really is left?

Surely Ann has been able to make her point again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again. Don't you agree?

I mean, what is left but to assign motive?

[Witness]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

That’s the raunchiest ideologue yet, from the intellectual left.

I feel sorry for you, Allen.   You are unaware of what your own organization teaches, which I presented to you above.  

Incredibly, you not only slander those on the outside of Watchtower walls, but those on the inside.  Absolutely no one is right but yourself….and the GB. 

“For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”  Matt 23:12

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 3/9/2017 at 10:21 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

and showed a cartoon which taught little children that abusers look like scary boogeymen (very misleading, as abusers are often 'nice' people they personally know or are related to

No. It is a cartoon. God help our children if they see the cartoon Ann would produce. They will be afraid to ever go near an adult again. Zealots do that sort of thing. They are so single-mindedly focused on their cause that they wreak fear and chaos everywhere else.

The trick is to protect children without terrifying them. Most adults are decent. Ann would portray them all as submerged predators. The deed is monstrous. Therefore it is portrayed as a monster. IF the cartoon was presented as standard TV babysitting fare for children, I might concede Ann has a point. But it is not. The cartoon is a teaching tool for parents. It is under 2 minutes in length. "Mommy' specifically says 'even if it is someone you know or trust." And immediately "tell Mommy or Daddy." Any Witness parent is going to ensure that point stands out when discussing the cartoon with their child.

Has Ann accepted this world's thinking that parents abdicate their role as teachers of their children, and let pop media do the job for them? That would account for her attitude, though it is not the only explanation. Another is that she is unwilling to concede anything but pure villainry can come from the Jehovah's Witness organization.

"The world can be a scary place. But you are never alone with Jehovah," Daddy says. But Ann's cartoon would say: "The world can be a scary place. Watch your back every minute. Any grown-up, no matter how nice they look, might be ready to pounce on you and do you harm. Watch out!"

Tell us in detail the cartoon you would produce, Ann. One that will work with four-year-olds.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

.

.

Four scary cartoons just came to mind .......

 

[Ann O'Maly]

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The trick is to protect children without terrifying them.

Agreed. 

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Most adults are decent. Ann would portray them all as submerged predators. The deed is monstrous. Therefore it is portrayed as a monster.

Portraying abusers as sinister cartoonish boogeymen plants a preconceived idea of what predators are supposed to look like. I mentioned why this was unhelpful and misleading before.

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The cartoon is a teaching tool for parents.

The cartoon is aimed at children. 

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"Mommy' specifically says 'even if it is someone you know or trust." And immediately "tell Mommy or Daddy." Any Witness parent is going to ensure that point stands out when discussing the cartoon with their child.

What if Mommy and/or Daddy are the abusers? What does the cartoon advise the child to do then?

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"The world can be a scary place. But you are never alone with Jehovah," Daddy says. But Ann's cartoon would say: "The world can be a scary place. Watch your back every minute. Any grown-up, no matter how nice they look, might be ready to pounce on you and do you harm. Watch out!"

Well now, I see the scaffolding of a straw man forming in your imagining what kind of cartoon I would make. 

However, you have highlighted another unhelpful part in the cartoon that primes the child to think of the outside world as a scary place, when for abused children it's usually the home that's the scary place.

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Tell us in detail the cartoon you would produce, Ann. One that will work with four-year-olds.

Better qualified people than I have already done so.

Compare the well-thought-out Fight Child Abuse YouTube channel, for example. Here's one of their videos:

Notice that they specify what 'safe' and 'unsafe' touches are, and who might give the child 'unsafe touches' ("someone you know or someone in your family") and that, rather than limit the disclosure to 'mommy or daddy' as with the Caleb and Sophia cartoon, they widen the child's options ("tell your teacher, or another family member"). There are no monster figures to confuse (or amuse) the child in this video. More could be said about how this cartoon differs in approach to the Caleb and Sophia one, but I'll leave it there.

Of course, I'm posting for the benefit of any interested readers. Naturally, I do not expect a calmly reasoned-out response from you @TrueTomHarley, although I live in hope. 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

 

The cartoon is aimed at children. 

No. It is a teaching tool for adults. Every one of Jehovah's Witnesses knows this. If you do not know this, it is because you have been out of circulation too long focusing only on stirring up wrath for those who hate.

JWs are taught to use this video, along with all the other Caleb and Sophia videos, as aides in teaching their children. The videos are not intended to stand alone. They are intended to facilitate instruction, and all in the congregation know this. Parents are encouraged in congregation meetings, which you don't attend, to use them this way.

Our video has the added bonus, completely lacking in yours, of instructing parents on how to teach their children and encouraging them to do so. It is thus family-friendly - a force for family cohesion. We think family is good. In the end, it is family that will protect a child better than any network of outside agencies, who so often drop the ball, counterbalancing the good they do.

Nonetheless, the Barbara Sinatra videos are well-done, and to be sure, 'mommy or daddy' have sometimes proved to be the abusers, particularly in step families. The Barbara Sinatra agency receives high marks from reviews I read on Yelp.

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Naturally, I do not expect a calmly reasoned-out response from you @TrueTomHarley, although

Hey, watch those ad hominem attacks, will you? When did I ever do that to you?