Why won't the head of the wt org admit it?

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

so you know that in the past few weeks the "Onion" has been peeled back to reveal that Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party and their cronies are the ones that have been colluding with the Russians, and it goes all the way back to Ted Kennedy.

sigh ... If you only did one tenth as much to support the Christian leadership that has proven 10 times more effective in preventing child abuse, as you do your favorite politician.

[Shiwiii]

On 2/24/2018 at 9:06 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Because it is not, relatively speaking.

Study 54 of the report, a follow-up to Study 29, makes possible an apples-to-apples comparison. Study 54 looked at the 17 instances of child abuse from the Witness organization that had been reported in the interim, from August 2015 to January 2017. Nine were historical cases and none involved an elder. All occurred in a familial setting. Of the seventeen, two had refused to report as they were adult survivors and it was their right not to report. The number of Witnesses in all Australia at the time was 67,418.

An apples-to-apples comparison becomes possible with a pool size large enough to be significant. Out of a total national Australian population of 23,968,973, The Australian Institute of Family Studies reported 41,622 notifications of child sexual abuse, (2014-2015) and the Commission likely reviewed some of them. Seemingly, the safest place a child could be was in the Jehovah’s Witness community, for proportionately, one would have expected 117 incidents, 100 more than the actual number. (The disparity is even greater, since a 17 month period for the Witnesses is compared to a 12-month period for all Australia) Do the math discover from these figures that a child is ten times safer in the Witness community than in the overall world.

What the ARC criticized was procedures for handling abuse cases that have occured. It was not their mission to look at whether, in a given setting, abuse was more or less likely to happen in the first place. Had it been, they would have awarded JWs a Family Glory award, just like Putin did to the Russian Witness family.

What you, Space Merchant, Tom and anyone else minimizing the issue by focusing on one country and the small population of jws in said country, are missing the point. Think globally not locally. You are living in a dream world if you think OZ is a one off thing. 

Countries participating thus far that we know of:

UK

Holland

USA

Austraila

Canada

This is like the Olympics of investigation of the wt and their practices.  Why would all of these countries be looking into the wt if there was no problem? They wouldn't

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Why would all of these countries be looking into the wt

Because the Watchtower did what no one else was proactive enough to do. 

With an eye to keeping clean as a congregation before God's eyes - as clean as possible - which the Bible obligates Christians to do, they chose to look into reports of abuse, and not hide their heads in the sand, as did everyone else. That is why there is this list of 1006 over 60 years that you and Rook have focused on. 

Everyone else (except for clergy) have had crimes of child sexual abuse discovered independently by authorities, and no connection is ever made with whatever religion they belong to.

[Shiwiii]

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Because the Watchtower did what no one else was proactive enough to do. 

Give me a break, unless you mean cover up pedo's better than the Catholics. you are delusional. 

10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

With an eye to keeping clean as a congregation before God's eyes - as clean as possible - which the Bible obligates Christians to do, they chose to look into reports of abuse, and not hide their heads in the sand, as did everyone else.

Is it keeping the cong clean when KNOWN pedo's are allowed to be reinstated and have access to kids again? Is it keeping the cong clean when an elders sin can be washed away by a loophole because he's an elder and anyone else who commits the same gets the shun? 

In the Shepherd the Flock of God book under the chapter "Appointment and Deletion of Elders and Ministerial Servants", on pg. 38, paragraph 19 it says:

If it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past: The body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true: The immorality or other serious wrongdoing occurred more than a few years ago, and he is genuinely repentant, recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned. (Perhaps he has even confessed to his sin, seeking help with his guilty conscience.) He has been serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of God's blessing, and has the respect of the congregation.

24 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That is why there is this list of 1006 over 60 years that you and Rook have focused on. 

Again Tom, look at the world picture and not this little slice that you think makes the wt look good. By the way, it is ONLY the jws who think the WT looks good in OZ. 

 

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone else (except for clergy) have had crimes of child sexual abuse discovered independently by authorities, and no connection is ever made with whatever religion they belong to.

you are correct, but it doesn't take the spotlight off of the wt when the practices of the wt foster this kind of behavior

[TrueTomHarley]

7 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you are correct

You could have just left it there.

8 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

but it doesn't take the spotlight off of the wt

The spotlight is only on them because they were proactive enough to look into something everyone else ran away from. Other faiths did not know or want to know whether members actually applied Bible teachings or not. Through neglect of what turns out to be a most serious problem, they produced no record for the ARC or anyone else to hold hearings on.

The other case studies the ARC investigated (there were 57 altogether) were social or govenment institutions or schools, who tracked abuse incidents. Other religions did not touch such things.

The finding that should be spotlighted, though it was not because its mission was something else, is that children appear to be 10 times safer in the Witness community than in the general Austrailain popluation. 

[Shiwiii]

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The spotlight is only on them because they were proactive enough to look into something everyone else ran away from. Other faiths did not know or want to know whether members actually applied Bible teachings or not. Through neglect of what turns out to be a most serious problem, they produced no record for the ARC or anyone else to hold hearings on.

The other case studies the ARC investigated (there were 57 altogether) were social or govenment institutions or schools, who tracked abuse incidents. Other religions did not touch such things.

The finding that should be spotlighted, though it was not because its mission was something else, is that children appear to be 10 times safer in the Witness community than in the general Austrailain popluation. 

being called to the carpet is NOT being proactive. Again, it is only jws who believe that the ARC was a good thing for the wt. 

[TrueTomHarley]

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

being called to the carpet is NOT being proactive. Again, it is only jws who believe that the ARC was a good thing for the wt. 

Let us look at this another way and appreciate what 'proactive' really is:

17 JW abuse incidents in the 17 months under consideration is one per month. Let us therefore call it 12, so as to equalize time periods with the other numbers considered. We have:

12 abuse incidents were reported among the 67,418 Witnesses in Australia during the same one-year time period that 41,621 abuse incidents were reported among the entire Australian population of 23, 968, 973.

If greater Australia experienced child sexual abuse in the same proportion that Jehovah's Witnesses did, it would have reported 4,266 incidences, not 41, 621. (Do the math, or find somebody who can)

That means there are 37,355 annual incidences of child sexual abuse that would not have occurred had the entire country been Jehovah's Witnesses.

The ARC focused on 1006 JW reports of abuse over a 60 year period. This was their job and they acted honorably. They were not able to look at any other denominations because, for whatever reason, none of them tracked abuse among their parishioners. The other 55 case studies the ARC examined are all institutions of some sort.

They could not be expected to focus on the 37,355 reports in one year. That was not their job. They focused on the 1006 reports over 60 years, which was their job.

However, if they were truly proactive, they would have focused on the 37,355 preventable abuses. They would have recommended that all persons in Australia become Jehovah's Witnesses.

This is because, expressed mathematically, we see that 

37,355 > 1006

It is even more lop-sided than that because the 37,355 is in a single year, and the 1006 is over 60 years.

How's that for proactive?

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If greater Australia experienced child sexual abuse in the same proportion that Jehovah's Witnesses did, it would have reported 4,266 incidences, not 41, 621. (Do the math, or find somebody who can)

Here lies the problem, you are interested in math and how adding numbers and dividing by the number of people who are not jws......etc. Instead of looking at how ANY child abuse case is handled within the org. THAT IS THE PROBLEM TOM, the org does not help the abused, but rather the abuser. That's the whole reason why the ARC investigated. 

 

And by the way, nothing in your post has any relation to the meaning of proactive. 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Here lies the problem, you are interested in math and how adding numbers and dividing by the number of people who are not jws.

Yes, because when you discuss groups of people digitally or on paper, they become numbers.

23 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Instead of looking at how ANY child abuse case is handled within the org...That's the whole reason why the ARC investigated.

Yes, they are concerned with the smaller picture, not the greater overall one. I acknowledged that. 

Since there are no figures at all from any other denomination, we can conclude that their policies of child sexual abuse is defined by Sergeant Shultz: "I know nothiiinnnggggg!"

[Shiwiii]

 

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, they are concerned with the smaller picture, not the greater overall one.

Thank you

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I looked at TTH's figures and there is so much wrong with how the problem was set up as to be embarrassing to look at.

I weary of giving detailed explanations, so I will just give an analogy. Either you get it or you don't.

TTH teaching a class::

"Ok students... If a strong man can dig a post hole in 60 seconds ... how long will it take for 60 strong men to dig that same post hole?"

If you answered one second ... the math works out, but it is not reality based.

[Space Merchant]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:40 AM, Shiwiii said:

What you, Space Merchant, Tom and anyone else minimizing the issue by focusing on one country and the small population of jws in said country, are missing the point. Think globally not locally. You are living in a dream world if you think OZ is a one off thing. 

Countries participating thus far that we know of:

UK

Holland

USA

Austraila

Canada

This is like the Olympics of investigation of the wt and their practices.  Why would all of these countries be looking into the wt if there was no problem? They wouldn't

No one is minimizing anything, for it is you who do not understand, we read the case studies and the final reports, you haven't, which is evident in your previous comments. For we take into account of the information we have before us and understand where the ARC's conclusion is about, some of us, like me, have been following ARC since 2012 (there is a HUGE timeline and it is on their website), for I didn't just jump on the ship very late into the game as you obviously did, use the line and read everything of all cases and reports and the very beginning of ARC actions towards the religious groups.

And no, don't bring the Olympics into this because last I check your focus was solely on the Watchtower, for if you did care about the child abuse issues than your comment would have been regarding all children not just children from a  single group, obliviously a single tarted religious group for all your questions and comments in your first post was directed to the Watchtower only or do you not recall what you even posted?

For we were talking about solely child abuse, we wouldn't be focused solely on a religion, let alone a religious group, but even if outside things are mentioned, people who read things are aware of things and do not jump to claims and assumptions of others over what is true.

It is agreeable that child abuse is a problem. But some people do not understand that, which I have said time and time again to which some seem to ignore it, is a worldwide global issue when it comes to violence and sexual immorality, this includes child abuse. It takes place in schools, religions, clubs, even businesses that there to support children, sports, etc. An example would be us Unitarians having someone from among our denominations being arrested due to child abuse: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacredcows/2017/08/red-pill-minister-gets-almost-5-years-prison-child-porn/

No man or woman is unaware of these things and are well aware that predators of either of the sexes, be it man or woman, can creep their way into such clubs and organizations in order to get their hands on children - Plus, since we are talking about religion and child abuse, hence the thread, you have to educate yourself and understand on how the law works, when it comes to things such as religious law, secular law, as well as how the church/state operate if they are separate. Most of the time, such instances take place in the household of the victim as well.

In addition to that, some would just advise the victim and or the victim's parents to seek out the aid of the police for no one is stopping them from doing so, for, as I said time and time again also, some people will make note, but will not get involved (Bystander Effect), in turn, just offer advise in what to do next. Be it relatives, friends, peers, etc. Churches are known to handle things internally, especially when it comes to their community of those who share the faith, so it does not opt them out either - for the only thing they can do at times is just advise you and or the family who knows of the abuse also, to take action.

Other then that, it would seem that people give praise to the ARC regarding the Watchtower, but ignore or act like the final reports and case studies of the religious group do not exist, for this information is public to everyone and the world. As for the Watchtower, the Final reports in ARC has given them something to look into, to better clarify the rules to elders in the faith.

But it is understandable, and there are ways to combat it, usually educating people on what these things are and how to handle them, to understand the signs of abuse and the like. For the abused have voices, yes, but a powerful voice is strong enough to dismantle an abuser(s).

If you want to fight child abuse of any kind, there are smart and better ways of doing it. Trying to bring down a religion isn't the best way of doing it, for what difference is there between you and the anti-religion, black flag and cross wielding, people who want to see all faiths by knocked down permanently?