Conscience individual and collective

[JW Insider]

Just now, César Chávez said:

The word "threatening" is a big word for someone who processes to have a son as a lawyer. 

That's exactly why I chose that word carefully.

[xero]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Yes. Unfortunately, I believe he has been "threatened" in different ways by both "academia" (not academia.edu) and by the WTS. His bio on Academia.edu shows how his Doctoral thesis was rejected because of his religion, considered fundamentalist by the university:

In 2005, I took a Master's degree in Biblical Hebrew with Dominique Gonnet: https://www.sources-chretiennes.mom.fr/index.php?pageid=equipe&id=966 and I started a thesis in archaeology and history of ancient worlds at the Maison de l'Orient, University of Lyon 2, under the supervision of Professor Pierre Villard. —December 2007. The defense of my thesis was postponed to an undetermined date when my thesis director was informed of my religion. He nevertheless agreed to transfer it to INALCO under the supervision of Daniel Bodi. —December 2009. The defense was cancelled when the director of the doctoral school opposed my registration by explaining to my thesis director that she did not want her university to endorse a “fundamentalist”.

He has a number of works available on Amazon and since my fascination is around archaeology and chronology I'm ordering a couple.

[JW Insider]

On 4/22/2021 at 10:42 AM, xero said:

He has a number of works available on Amazon and since my fascination is around archaeology and chronology I'm ordering a couple.

I have so far found all of his work to be thoughtful and well researched. It looks like he uses every opportunity on almost any Biblical topic to try to support the WTS research against the "accepted" scholarship  as far as he is able. He defends Daniel, Esther, Darius, Artaxerxes, Exodus, Job, Noah, etc., against the common claims of most modern critical scholars. I have found almost everything he's written to be quite interesting. His work on the Divine Name is some of the best support of the pronunciation Jehovah I have seen. Others have tried to defend the pronunciation Jehovah (Yehovah) but with a lot of crackpot claims and methods to get attention (Nehemia Gordon, etc.).

Also, I think CC is referring to Pekka Mansikka, but you will have to make up your own mind on him. I found his "logic" to be so non-existent that I gave up trying to discuss his claims. But perhaps others will find something useful there, too.

[Witness]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:34 AM, César Chávez said:

My question to John was, do you need to literally hear the words? I understand the Catholic faith does so. If you need to hear the words, then you premise is in false religion.

So, what the early disciples heard and followed, as the command of Jesus Christ, would identify them as serving “false religion”. You may want to unravel your own lie. 

I am not saying that “every” word has to be spoken, but when the thrust of the command disintegrates, and a new “command” takes its place – a false religion becomes very evident.

Wt 1955/7/1 p. 411 - "A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit." 

 Wt 1966 Oct 1 pp.603-604 - "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization.

Oh, but times have changed!  JWs DO dedicate themselves to both a religion and an organization.

Wt 1985/7/1 p. 30 - “On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?”

The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.  No one then, was baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit.

“The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism." Watchtower 1985 Jun 1 p.30

There.  Christ’s command has disintegrated.  This is far from the “right heart condition” needed, to undergo the baptism that Christ outlined to his disciples.  It is the right heart condition that men require, for initiation into false religion.   These questions that one must agree to, is none other than deception.

If there are excuses made for the questions, then whose commands are being upheld?  Those of powerful men, or those of Jesus Christ?  If a JW says, well I dedicated my life to God and Christ, and not to an organization";  then I ask, why are you a JW, and an "associate"/member of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

 

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

What you are trying to defend are the words.

Matt 24:25 – “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

Mark 8:38 – “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Luke 4:32 – “They were amazed at his teaching, because his words had authority.”

Luke 6:47-49 – “As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. ⁴⁸ They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. ⁴⁹ But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

There should be NO confusion when someone gets baptized, his life belongs to God.

I agree, but here is the confusion:

2 hours ago, Witness said:

“The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism." Watchtower 1985 Jun 1 p.30

This question expects one to dedicate their life to the organization and to the doctrine of the organization  - WORDS of men, whatever doctrine may come or go.  No one, as stated below, should dedicate themselves to a religion or an organization. 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Wt 1966 Oct 1 pp.603-604 - "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization.

This is truth, but the LIE is practiced – a lie that is doctrine of men and not the words of Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 4:3 - "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."  

The Truth is found in the words of Jesus Christ.  

2 Tim 2:15 - Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

[Pudgy]

Correctly handling the "Word of Truth", is the same as correctly handling a saw, a hammer, a level, or any other tool. 

WORDS are the tools with which we think.

If we use tools in a wrong way, what we build will be crap.

If we use words in a wrong way, what we think will be crap.

My considered dogged opinion is that Sen-yor Chavez is on the verge of hysterical panic.

[Srecko Sostar]

If the words spoken are not important during the baptism ceremony, then there is no need to ask WTJWorg questions for the “candidate”.
Also, if someone has already been baptized in any other religion, then it is not important to be re-baptized if they change the religious community, because according to some comments it could be inferred that baptism is just a ceremony that does not deserve as much attention as the decision, made previous, to follow Christ.

"Word" is important, as insignificant as it may seem at times. Well, God also spoke the Word, one or more Words when He created the world. "And God said, let it be ...." So, the spirit could act even without the spoken Word, triggered by Thoughts. But, as Pudgy said, the word is a tool, a tool of the thought process hidden in a person. The thought remains hidden until it is uttered. 

Of course I don’t know how God uttered the words that Moses speaks of in Genesis. For Moses writes that God said the words, not that He just uttered them in thought. Well, I guess then he would write that God Thought something and then the Spirit moved because of the Thought.

But this is a bit irrelevant considering what kind of Words WTJWorg uses which is a product of the Thought Process of GB and other “theologians” in WTJWorg.

@Witnessthanks for WT quotes that showed how words are tools for deceiving JW members. 

 

One thought flashed through my mind about something in comment.

Jesus initiated the “new commandments,” which made all the “old commandments” rejected and unnecessary. In a sense, the old has become a "false religion." The Jewish religious system is, even according to WTJWorg, rejected by God. Watch out, "rejected by God." What is rejected by God is worthless. It has become part of global religiously worthless things that God does not accept or acknowledge as true. So, in one categorical sense, the former (truth) of/in the "Jewish religion" became a "false religion." A very awkward thought, and a spoken word, isn't it? But no Christian, of any denomination along with JW members, will say that the “Jewish religion” is the "right" religion, but the “wrong/false" one. 

The ways of God are miraculous and strange.  

[xero]

I suspect that there may be more people of the autistic spectrum among opposers.

https://www.autismtas.org.au/about-autism/key-areas-of-difference/social-communication-differences/

My wife is undiagnosed, but I suspect on the spectrum.

Opposers, it seems have problems with the whole vs parts and their relations to each other.

One might hear in any congregation a clue to an ASD person go like this:

ASD Person - "In the WT of year, month, they said X, but in the WT of year, month they said Y. They lied!"

Normal person - "Consider the context, they may have said X, but in the context of this statement Z also was true which changes the Y they said into something more like Q, if you follow me."

ASD "If they meant Q, then why didn't they say Q?"

Normal person "Do you have balance issues when you walk? Do you like making rules for your social interactions? Is your communication with people one-sided?"

ASD "Why do you ask?"

Normal Person "You have signs of being ASD. You're not neurotypical. Your filter on the world is different."

 

[Pudgy]

Sen-yor Chavez ... if I may pose a relevant question ....

It seems that from what I have been reading in the past few months here on the Archive, that EVERYBODY without exception is mentally ill .... except you?

My Guardian is ASD .... he even labels my dog water bowl and food bowl with a tape label maker, which I have noticed is also labeled with a yellow tape "Label Maker" on the label maker.   And on the label of the label maker's label that says "Label Maker", is a tiny label that says "Label",

 

[Pudgy]

... oh and don't forget, if you think you feel a stroke coming on, just double up on those fertility pills ....

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

you are dedicating your life to God by means of a dedicated organization

Who, when and in what way did someone “dedicate” an “organization”? 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The emergence in water is the important thing. Catholics use words to complete a tradition. 

WTJWorg using words too, don't they? Is it about tradition also?