Jump to content
The World News Media

How present and communicative was Jehovah during the time prior to the flood?


Recommended Posts

  • Member

There's a lot in the way of implicit communication, but not so much explicit. 

1,656 years....a lot of time for things to happen...we have the seed prophesy, we have Cain and Abel engaging in sacrifice for some reason....nothing in the way of what led to this reasoning, we can only speculate....Enoch apparently has a lot to say which is upsetting to some....angels forsaking their dwelling place...Nephils running around...violence filling the earth....people "calling on the name of Jehovah" and finally Noah being told to build the ark and to get in it....plus no one in Seth's line does anything technologically interesting...

The first 6 chapters are the most enigmatic of the whole of the Bible.....IMHO

If you don't speculate, you'd have a 1,656 year gap....

Imagine that you're living then. What do you know, and how do you know it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Views 2.1k
  • Replies 40
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

All true, but what I've been getting at in all my posts is that we often don't recognize the presumptions and speculations WE ourselves make and how solid these are or are not in some cases. It's when

Making assumptions is dangerous, it can lead to false teaching.

In order to understand what the Bible says, AND what it ALMOST says, one has to care deeply about understanding ALL things (whether we are good at it is a whole other discussion ... especially if we a

  • Member
2 hours ago, xero said:

If you don't speculate,

Speculation was not necessary.    Life went on as they selfishly enjoyed their lives and drank, ate and got married until the flood came and swept them all  away.  Many did not care about god - they had no spiritual need or a longing for God. The promise was given and many must have known about it: those who remembered Jehovah knew that he would eventually bring a seed that would  eliminate the seed of Satan and his legacy. The tree of life was something they may have looked forward to because we see its symbolism in drawings soon after the flood.

The sword was still keeping people out of the original garden of Eden which was "verboten" for sinful humankind.  Everyone knew what it meant and must have known what happened.   All knew the name of the true god..... but unfortunately in time of Enoch already the world had turned wicked.  It was just a matter of time before things really became so bad  that Jehovah wanted to literally cleanse the earth of the demons and Nephilim and all living/ breathing  flesh.

Jehovah still had his Spirit to give to those who asked for it.  It does not seem as though many did worship him they way He wants to be worshipped. Noah's cousins and aunts were not in the ark. Noah must have been protected by angels because the Nephilim and Satan would have wanted to thwart Jehovah's plan to bring forth a Messiah. Enoch received a sign that he had pleased god before he was taken... 

The purpose of Jehovah went ahead after the flood.  One need not make up stories about this either.  Life went on as usual with killing, selfishness, wars, oppression and slavery...... due the the flaw of sin inside humankind,  this is part of all life on earth.  I am sure this escalated before the flood as well.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

What I'm getting at is that even in @arauna's reply there is a tremendous amount of speculation. We can only know what's written, and what is written is pretty sparse. We don't know whether the garden remained to exist until the flood. We don't know why these came up w/the idea that Jehovah would want some stuff in the form of an offering. That in itself seems to show a retarded conception of God, like somehow you could ever "give" or need to "give" him anything. In the context there are assumptions that people would know what "Doing good" was, or what "Sin" was.  We don't know how it was that these assumed an offering was accepted. We don't know whether these had an audible or visual representation of Jehovah or both. I'm quite familiar w/the standard speculations, because that's what these are w/o biblical confirmation as to the details. I'm just pointing out how we easily make a lot of assumptions because we're not there and not involved. Perhaps we imagine ourselves as in a superior position, and perhaps we are w/regard to knowledge, but we don't "know". 


Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Please clarify so I can answer you!   Name the things you do not accept........  I want to test your understanding of the bible......

We assume there were ALWAYS angels blocking the way to the garden and that the garden was ever present for people to go and gawk at the entrance until the flood.

We don't know how long the garden was there, nor how long the angels were posted. Jehovah may have allowed a natural disaster to flatten the garden and all that was in it for all we know. The bible doesn't say. 

We DO know it was removed by the flood at the very least.

We don't know what led Cain and Abel to come up w/the idea of sacrifice. The bible implies but doesn't state how they came up w/the idea.

Was it their idea? Was it suggested to them by Adam and Eve? Was it suggested by an angelic messenger? We don't know, and the bible is silent there.

Regardless (or irregardless :) )  of how the idea came to them, we also don't know how it became manifest that any sacrifice was acceptable or not, nor why it would be that it could be so infuriating for a sacrifice not to be accepted.

If it was simply divinely burned up, like in the case of Elijah and the Baal prophets, then what you have is Cain getting all worked up because his veggies didn't get roasted, but the animal meat Abel provided DID get roasted.

What made it acceptable or not? We speculate, and perhaps rightly, but perhaps not. Perhaps there was nothing wrong with it (Cain's) and it was simply a test to see how Cain would react. We don't know.

We DO know that he was counseled about doing good and watching out for sin.

No law at this point, so what constituted sin? We don't know, but we can speculate. Was it simply listening to the inner conscience or were there verbal instructions given which we don't know about?

What was the mark of Cain and why would he be so worked up over the idea that people might kill him? Ostensibly at this time there weren't people about who didn't know him. 

Right away at Genesis 3:15 there is a discussion of two seed. The serpent's (Nachash) and the woman's. Why are we already discussing the serpent's seed? Did they already exist in some form metaphorically or in reality? We know even Eve was speculating later it seems by saying "I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah" on Cains' birth and later with Seth after Abel is murdered by referring to the seed replacement in Gen 4:25. Seems she imagined something which turned out not to be the case, but still imagined she was the "woman".

Then too there is the enigma as to this rapid technological advancement and we see this all in Cain's lineage, not Seths. Why? No explanation. Did the sons of the true god head on down and teach humans all these things? We don't know, and the bible doesn't say. We can speculate, but we don't know.

What was the "Calling on the name of Jehovah"? (Genesis 4:26) Lots of speculation here. Who is right? I don't know.

Also...were the Nephilim infertile themselves? We don't know. Hybrids are usually, but not always.

What else transpired?

I would imagine a lot of idolatry and that much of the myths and legends surrounding these pagan nations post deluge are recollections of what actually took place prior to the deluge. But I have to imagine, because the Bible is silent as to these details.

Population growth estimates suggest between 750 million and 4 billion alive at the flood. These are speculative estimates, but that's a lot of people and living as long as these did live, a lot could have transpired.

Also, we assume, but don't know that every Nephil was male. It may have been, but we don't know. Also we don't know if other chimeric creatures may have been created which needed to be destroyed.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

BTW look as you will there is no requirement I have found for burying the dead (touching dead bodies? yes, burying the dead? No) It strikes me that people just made a lot of assumptions and Jehovah let people roll w/it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
9 minutes ago, xero said:

natural disaster to flatten the garden and all that was in it for all we know.

Now that is even greater speculation than I gave you!  Because my speculation is taken from the bible...... yours is your own idea completely - grounded on a bogus weather report?!

11 minutes ago, xero said:

We DO know it was removed by the flood at the very least.

Now that is more like it - so assume what you DO know - from the bible!


12 minutes ago, xero said:

The bible implies but doesn't state how they came up w/the idea.

It is natural to want to give something in gratitude - Abel had sheep so he gave that!  His brother must have imitated him because the bible says he did not have love for his brother. he gave what he had.....  "By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain,+ and through that faith he received the witness that he was righteous, for God approved* his gifts,+ and although he died, he still speaks+ through his faith."

God warned Cain about wickedness in his heart :  he needed to get self-control or it will master him

"gen 4:6

 Then Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor?* But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?”

After that Cain said to his brother Abel: “Let us go over into the field.” He had premeditated a murder because he was "warned by no one less than Jehovah himself!

19 minutes ago, xero said:

We speculate, and perhaps rightly, but perhaps not

The above is in the bible so it is not speculation....... 

20 minutes ago, xero said:

Did the sons of the true god head on down and teach humans all these things?

Intelligent human beings figured out many things before the flood.... how to make music instruments.....and iron....  How to make bitumen (Noah made bitumen for the ark....... so do not think along the lines of the world which say they were Neanderthals......they were intelligent and capable. 

25 minutes ago, xero said:

What was the "Calling on the name of Jehovah"? (Genesis 4:26)

exactly what is says - one need not speculate on it.  It says they did ....... obviously they knew his name...... Adam and eve were still living and able to tell them for sure!  We do not know if they called on him in faith because only Enoch was truly righteous..... Adam was also around to see the result of their own rebellion against Jehovah. Lamech's sons made instruments and  iron.  " The poem that Lamech composed for his wives (Ge 4:23, 24) reflects the violent spirit of that day. Lamech’s poem ran: “Hear my voice, you wives of Lamech; give ear to my saying: A man I have killed for wounding me, yes, a young man for giving me a blow. If seven times Cain is to be avenged, then Lamech seventy times and seven.” Evidently Lamech was presenting a case of self-defense, pleading that his act was not one of deliberate murder, like that of Cain. Lamech claimed that, in defending himself, he had killed the man who struck and wounded him. Therefore, his poem stood as a plea for immunity against anyone desiring to get revenge against him for killing his attacker."

30 minutes ago, xero said:

infertile themselves? We don't know. Hybrids are usually, but not always.

I have never seen a true hybrid bring forth child-bearing babies...... not if they are truly 2 different kinds.     Even large cats do not always produce offspring which can produce offspring..... and that is one kind of animal..... 


32 minutes ago, xero said:

legends surrounding these pagan nations post deluge are recollections of what actually took place prior to the deluge.

Bingo -  soon after we see Nimrod creating opposition to Jehovah.. again......and Jehovah having to step in.  The history of humankind is evil because we have a flaw - sin.   what do we learn from this?   Every time man has a fresh start - they mess up again because of selfishness and greed and oppress and kill, 


34 minutes ago, xero said:

ut don't know that every Nephil was male

it says - they took wives!  So they must have taken human form - unless you have been influenced by the new philosophies - which most probable will say they were transgender - lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

Too, every time I read about Cain, I think of some moral retard. This loser runs into a tad of resistance and he blames other people for his problems. He would have fit in w/the SJWS today. Whine, whine, whine. "Boo hoo! Someone might kill me!"

I suppose I would have said "Tough. You should have listened. I should wipe you out for whining alone. Get out of here, you disgust me."



Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Popular Contributors

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One issue with historian Flavius Josephus is that he suggests that the Royal Captain of the (Guard) can also be regarded as General Nebuzaradan. A confusion arises from Josephus' account of the captives mentioned in Jeremiah, as he claims that they were taken from Egypt instead of Babylon. Since Nebuchadnezzar was occupied in Rilah, he directed his generals to lay siege to Jerusalem. This could potentially account for the numerous dispatches that Nebuchadnezzar would have sent to the west, but the considerable distance to Borsippa still poses a challenge. As a result, the Babylonians managed to gain control of regions such as Aram (Syria), Ammon, and Moab. The only territories that remained were the coastal cities, where the Egyptians held sway. King Josiah decided to form an alliance with Babylon instead of being under Egyptian rule. So, that part of the territory was covered until King Josiah was defeated.  It's interesting how they started back then in 4129, but still end up with the same conclusion with Zedekiah's Defeat 3522 607 B.C. 3419 607 B.C. even though their AM is different.  
    • In the era of the Bible Students within the Watchtower, there were numerous beginnings. It is essential to bear in mind that each congregation functioned autonomously, granting the Elders the freedom to assert their own assertions and interpretations. Most people embraced the principles that Pastor Russell was trying to convey. You could argue that what you are experiencing now, they also experienced back then. The key difference is that unity was interpreted differently. Back then it had value where today there is none. To address your inquiry, while I cannot recall the exact details, it is believed to have been either 4129 or 4126. Some groups, however, adopted Ussher's 4004. It is worth mentioning that they have now discarded it and revised it to either 3954 or 3958, although I personally find little interest in this matter. I believe I encountered this information in the book titled "The Time is at Hand," though it may also be referenced in their convention report. Regardless, this is part of their compelling study series 3. Please take a moment to review and confirm the date. I am currently focused on Riblah. The Bible Students who firmly believe that Israel is the prophetic sign of Armageddon have made noteworthy adjustments to their chronology. They have included significant dates such as 1947/8 and 1967/8, as well as more recent dates. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that, according to their calculations, 2024 holds immense importance. The ongoing tension of Iran targeting Israel directly from its own territory amplifies the gravity of the situation. If their trajectory continues, the subsequent captivating event will occur in 2029, rather than as previously speculated, in 2034 by some.
    • Would it be too much to ask what was the bible students starting point of creation?
    • @JW Insider Your summary is irrelevant, as I do not make any assertions regarding BC/AD other than their usage by scholars and in history, as you yourself have also acknowledged on numerous occasions, thus rendering your point invalid and evasive. The Watchtower leverages external viewpoints, including secular evidence, to substantiate the accuracy of their chronological interpretations. There are numerous approaches to dating events. Personally, I explore various alternative methods that lead to the same conclusion as the Watchtower. However, the most captivating approach is to utilize secular chronology to arrive at the same outcome. By relying solely on secular chronology, the pattern still aligns, albeit with a distinct interpretation of the available data. Nevertheless, the ultimate result remains unchanged. This is why when you get upset, when you are proven wrong, you, Tom, and those with the authority to ban take action, because you like others cannot handle the truth. In this case, your infamous tablet VAT 4956 has become useless in this situation. I do agree with you on one thing: you are not an expert, just like COJ. However, I must admit that this foolish individual was not the first to debate the chronology with the Watchtower and abandon it based on personal beliefs. He simply happened to be the most recent one that's on record.
  • Members

    • henri

      henri 0

      Last active:
    • Pudgy

      Pudgy 2,405

      Last active:
    • Anna

      Anna 5,083

      Last active:
    • Mic Drop

      Mic Drop 95

      Last active:
    • George J Strakey

      George J Strakey 10

      Last active:
    • K625XM

      K625XM 0

      Last active:
  • Recent Status Updates

  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
    • Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
    • Most Online

    Newest Member
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.