"Seeing" Jehovah

[Moise Racette]

Bible discussions are, only affirmed by its intellect. Scriptural understanding has been a challenge for humanity after its original intent was lost. Now, interpretation by many have a variation. A composite to the truth. 

(Job 38:1-7) 38 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the windstorm:  2 “Who is this who is obscuring my counsel And speaking without knowledge?  3 Brace yourself, please, like a man; I will question you, and you inform me.  4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you think you understand.  5 Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched a measuring line across it?  6 Into what were its pedestals sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone,  7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
 

How does a true Christian make that distinction? That is the purpose in many ways how the Watchtower brings the original understanding back. By explaining the reasoning and wisdom of the ancient world through God's inspired word, not theirs.

How do you convince a person that is opposed to a certain interpretation? You don't. What one can do, is show the fallacy of the posters interpretation. Since this is a public forum, then, the reader should be willing to understand the differences.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Nothing is impossible for Jehovah.

Yes - but are you now making Jehovah into a kind of angel that can materialize? .....with human desires who wants to mix with humans..... like the wicked angels did?  The bible itself says the highest heavens cannot contain Jehovah.... I quoted the scripture above.  

Actually, "Nothing is impossible for Jehovah", is AnaNana's comment, although it is true. 

Isa 55:9 - "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

In any case we cannot put Jesus on par with Jehovah - he is merely a creation of jehovah and it was jehovah who emptied him to come to earth and be born as a human. 

"merely", is a bit of an understatement.

Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, ⁷ but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. ⁸ And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. ⁹ Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, ¹⁰ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, ¹¹ and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.   Philippians 2

 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. 18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.  Col 1

All things are held together in him - that is, creation - the heavens and the earth.  Watchtower does a lot of dismissing of the role and the power of Jesus Christ.  

 

 

[Moise Racette]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Actually, "Nothing is impossible for Jehovah", is AnaNana's comment, although it is true. 

While the comment is true, the intent isn't. That is the poster's topic, "seeing God" which no man will ever do, nor experience.

That doesn't mean, that no man can feel his presence, which some did in ancient times. Therefore, two different ideologies that are ignored by that poster as you willfully pointed it out as a mistake in bible understanding.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

"merely", is a bit of an understatement.

Jesus always had, and continues to have, a bigger role in creation. He was the master builder with creation and the son of man to redeem humanity. Thus, being elevated above the angels without holding a position of, actually, being God.

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, xero said:

Jehovah can accomplish. It is not possible for Jehovah to make a square circle, because a circle is by definition not square. With regard to his "existence" in 3D land, Jehovah could animate a being to do and say what he would have him do or say (like Balaam or his ass) but he could never truncate his existence so as to be encapsulated by the kind of existence we humans experience. 

I like the thoughts you expressed above. Not only is it scientific but it also brings out the meaning of jehovahs name: he causes to become - in order for his purposes to come to full  fruition. So he always  accomplishes his full will. 

I may also add that jehovah's thoughts are much much higher than ours... and  he is humble and allows us to be very close to him  (he is our father and lifegiver),, but we must always have that higher respect, worshipful attitude and awe - because He is awesome! In addition, we have our physical fathers we can hug when we need a physical hug. 

The wholesome fear and love of Jehovah gives us a sense of purpose and direction. We are like little children playing in front of jehovah and He is the parent keeping a watchful eye on us.... we have freedom like a todler to go about our activities but the todler runs to His father everytime he feels threatened or needs assurance.

We only understand partialy - as Paul said in 1 kor 13 - but one day we will understand a perfect relationship with Him and the full meaning of living in his love and approval while always recognising our limitations and our dependence on Him....

We can never be on the same level as Jehovah and have Him cavorting with us here on earth in physical form! 

He has other means to be close to us and we should appreciate that which he has given us.  We can get closer to his thoughts by reading our bible regularly and meditating on it.  We willthen think like a mature man. 

[Arauna]

10 hours ago, Moise Racette said:

Jesus always had, and continues to have, a bigger role in creation. He was the master builder with creation and the son of man to redeem humanity. Thus, being elevated above the angels without holding a position of, actually, being God.

True, by the use of the word "merely" I meant that Jesus will always be a creation of Jehovah and Jesus later became the legal guarantee for our sins to be forgiven and a resurrection from a deserved death. He is the highest in the universe next to Jehovah and was elevated to this position by Jehovah. But our forefathers did see him in human form when he walked the earth.

Never did Jesus ever think of being equal to Jehovah because Jehovah was his life-giver as well.  He proved so faithful in what he said, thought and did that he maintained a "perfect" subjection to Jehovah. As a reward he received immortality and incorruptibility - given his own source of life. Jehovah trusted him completely.

[Moise Racette]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

But our forefathers did see him in human form when he walked the earth.

I hope the poster is referring to "Jesus" when he walked on earth and NOT God that our forefathers heard and felt.

[Guest]

"Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open."

 

It is not on account of the "swine" and the "dogs" that I am speaking. Those who would fit the description of "swine" and "dogs" will be outside the Kingdom.

 

"Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying."

 

I am speaking on account of the chosen ones, those little sheep who are chosen by Jehovah and drawn by him to his Son. I am speaking in union with Christ and in the sight of God. Here is what Jesus says:

 

"I am the fine shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me...And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

 

Jehovah sent Jesus to heal the family. The entire family.

 

“Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.  For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel."

 

There are many works greater than the ones Jesus has already done.

 

"Jesus was indignant and said to them: “Let the young children come to me; do not try to stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such ones.  Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.”  And he took the children into his arms and began blessing them, laying his hands on them."

 

Those who are anointed with holy spirit will be like "elders" in the sense described figuratively in Revelation. The other sheep are younger children in that they are made perfect sons of God at the end of the 1000 year reign. God is not partial. He does not separate his family members. Satan is the one who wants to separate the family and blame it on God. Men who want to lord it over others like to make such divisions. These divisions give them a sense of "riches" and "glory" the same as the Devil desires.

 

"Jesus looked at him and felt love for him and said, “One thing is missing about you: Go, sell what things you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.”  But he grew sad at the answer and went away grieved, for he had many possessions. After looking around, Jesus said to his disciples: “How difficult it will be for those with money to enter into the Kingdom of God!”  But the disciples were surprised at his words. Jesus then responded: “Children, how difficult it is to enter into the Kingdom of God!  It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.”  They became still more astounded and said to him: “Who possibly can be saved?”  Looking straight at them, Jesus said: “With men it is impossible but not so with God, for all things are possible with God."

 

For those who are willing to give up their prominence and glory from men and competition and pride, there will be the true riches and glory being beloved children of God.

 

"And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free."

 

"Dogs" and "swine" do not want to come to the Christ, because such ones would have to give up their glory and become like little children. Little children can understand the truth, because the truth is simple. Jehovah is Our Father. Nothing is impossible for Him. Sons of the Devil cannot understand these things, because they do not understand love. For such wicked ones, the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is a business, a competition, a way of vying for importance based on training sessions and brownie points and number of placements or number of hours or whatever. For true Witnesses of Jehovah, the organization means being part of a family. Jesus was willing to minister without a title or counting "time". He wore the same outfit most days, and he didn't go around calling himself "The Faithful And Discreet Slave" in fact he said not to call anyone "Good Teacher" or "Father" on earth because only Jehovah is our Good One and Father in heaven.

 

"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying:  “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say. They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments.  They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues  and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men.  But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers.  Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.  Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.  But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

 

Pharisees, scribes, dogs, swine, offspring of the Devil...these were all the words Jesus used to describe those who are not his sheep.

 

"But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep.  My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.  I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.  What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father.  I and the Father are one."

 

Jesus sent me, that is why I am here to share this message. It is not my message, and I do not seek glory for myself or for any man. It is the same message you have heard from the beginning, as John said. God is Love. You will see the certainly see the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one by the way they react to this message.

 

"Most truly I say to you, whoever receives anyone I send receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me."

 

It is just as Jesus said...

 

"...my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from and where I am going.  You judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all.  And yet even if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me."

 

Judge for yourselves as to whether these things are true. You will see the "Pharisees" and "scribes" try to hinder the little children from coming to the Father. They are blind guides, those Pharisees, and they trample what is holy. Jehovah will remove such ones in time. Jesus said any plant not planted by His Father would be uprooted. They are the weeds, and they like to persecute those sent by the Lord.

 

"Woe to you, because you build the tombs of the prophets, but your forefathers killed them!  Certainly you are witnesses of the deeds of your forefathers, and yet you approve of them, for they killed the prophets but you are building their tombs.  That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them,  so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation,  from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation. “Woe to you who are versed in the Law, because you took away the key of knowledge. You yourselves did not go in, and you hinder those going in."

 

Jehovah is calling all His little children, not just the anointed. Jehovah is healing the family. "He Causes To Become". If He can cause the ancient Israelites to hear his voice from the mountain, is it too much for Jehovah to cause them to see him at the appointed time? It is not yet the appointed time, but is the hand of Jehovah short? Who dictates to Jehovah what he is able to do or not do? Some scribes and Pharisees on a forum? 

 

Why is there a priesthood? Not to have an exalted class. To fix the family, minister to the family, serve the younger children and help them so all can have the glorious freedom of the children of God.

 

Why did Jacob get the name "Israel"? His children had already crossed over the fords. The angel was between him and his children. Jacob was willing to wrestle all night with an angel in order to get the blessing, to be with and protect his family, his entire family. "Contender With God".

 

The promise was for the entire family.

 

(What kind of father only embraces a fraction of his kids and only sees the others from a distance? That is what Satan wants people to think Jehovah is like. Jehovah is not like that. Jehovah is like what Jesus would do. Would Jesus only hug the apostles and not the kids? You know the answer. Jesus said when we see him, we see what Jehovah is like because Jesus does things the way Jehovah does.)

 

Jehovah is Contending. He is contending so that He can be with His Entire Family. He is wrestling with the biggest issue anyone has ever wrestled with. He didn't have to put himself through all this pain. He chose to go through this. He sees all the pain everyone has gone through, and He hurts more than we do because of it, so great is His compassion and love. Why did He do all this?

 

"Let the young children come to me."

 

You will have to know that He Is Jehovah. God is Love.

 

Praise Jah!

[Moise Racette]

16 minutes ago, AnnaNana said:

"Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open."

Fits the posters ideology and stance perfectly. No one should listen to an apostate state of mind.

[Arauna]

You have veered away from the subject you posted....and gone all superfine, self-righteous apostle on us.

I do not discuss subjects with people who have your state of mind.  You think you are superior. 

[Guest]

Jehovah's ways are higher than our ways. His thinking is higher. A Good Father is willing to reach down and pick up his child. Jehovah invented good fathers. He is the Best One. His way of being a Father is better than we can know. It is more than superabundantly beyond all we can ask and conceive.

 

Jehovah walked with Adam in the garden. Jehovah blew the breath of life into Adam's nostrils. When Adam sinned, he hid from the face of Jehovah. (You can't hide from a voice.)

 

The punishment for their sin was getting kicked out from the garden. They couldn't hang out with Jehovah anymore. Paradise isn't just a fancy garden. It includes hanging out with our Father.

 

Obviously, Jehovah did not show them his higher-than-heavenly-glory "face", because "no one can see my face and live". That's the face we can't handle. But that doesn't negate the rest of the scriptures. Jehovah spoke to Moses "face-to-face". Men can be in New York and stream a talk worldwide to millions at the same time and be "seen". Jehovah can interact with perfect humans on a one-to-one physical basis if He so chooses. If He can make a "voice" then He can make a "face" and a "body". He's Jehovah.

 

Flesh and blood humans cannot see Jehovah's heavenly glory. But they can interact with a materialized body. Jehovah can materialize a body to visit his own family. The scriptures are clear that Jehovah blew the breath of life into Adam's nostrils. "The One making the ear, can He not hear? The One who made the eye, can He not see?" The One making the human body, can He not visit in a human body? If Jehovah can give angels the ability to do something, is it not because Jehovah himself can do the same? If He can listen to all prayers at the same time, why not speak in "person" to many at the same time? If He can see everyone at the same time, why not be "seen" at the same time if He so chooses? He can make the sun stand still. He can make the shadows go backwards on a step. Is anything too difficult for Jehovah?

 

Why do you think Jehovah is going to treat his faithful earthly children as if they are dead? Jehovah is not like that.

 

Adam became "dead" to Jehovah after Adam willingly sinned. We were all born under that arrangement, death. Jesus came so we can be alive.

 

Today, the organization adheres to a God-dishonoring arrangement called "disfellowshipping". In this arrangement, one cast out is treated as if dead even though they are living. No one in the congregation is supposed to talk to or hang out with the "disfellowshipped" one. 

 

Why would Jehovah treat the faithful other sheep in the same way the organization treats "disfellowshipped" ones? Even after they are made perfect at the end of the 1,000 year reign, is Jehovah going to treat faithful other sheep like how you treat "disfellowshipped" ones, by not talking to them or not hanging out with them?

 

"You are very much mistaken.” "He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him."

 

The precious blood of the ransom makes the impossible possible.

 

“O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring him here to me.” Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was cured from that hour.  Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said: “Why could we not expel it?”  He said to them: “Because of your little faith. For truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard grain, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

 

Faithless and twisted ones want to prevent children from being with their Father. The demons gave Jesus a hard time in the first century. He rebuked them. 

 

Family is close. Jehovah is coming. "Make the way of Jehovah straight, you people!" "Give glory to God!" "Bow down before him in holy adornment, make melody to him, make melody!"

 

It is fitting to praise Jehovah. He is healing the breach in the family, uniting the family, so that His faithful heavenly sons and His faithful earthly sons may enjoy life together the way God intended. 

 

"For this reason I bend my knees to the Father, to whom every family in heaven and on earth owes its name.  I pray that he may grant you through the abundance of his glory to be made mighty in the man you are inside, with power through his spirit,  and that through your faith you may have the Christ dwell in your hearts with love. May you be rooted and established on the foundation,  in order that with all the holy ones you may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth,  and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness that God gives."

 

Praise Jehovah for His Loyal Love.

[Moise Racette]

1 minute ago, AnnaNana said:

Jehovah's ways are higher than our ways. His thinking is higher. A Good Father is willing to reach down and pick up his child. Jehovah invented good fathers. He is the Best One. His way of being a Father is better than we can know. It is more than superabundantly beyond all we can ask and conceive.

Indeed, they are, our heavenly father is far greater than any man imaginable, short of Christ perfect state of mind on earth. Then why not follow Christ lead and start being a true Christian, not a pretender that just wishes to post, nonsense.