Division within the watch tower world.

[John 12.24to28]

43 minutes ago, boyle said:

That's the whole point about the bible. What kind of association is favorable to Jehovah?

It was made clear by Jesus and Paul.

 

It was made clear. Jesus hung out with salt-of-the-earth kind of people. He ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. He spent time with people no one else liked and with people who were unloved. He even showed love for people who were really mean and scary sometimes, like that Legion guy.

 

Paul used to be a Pharisee who wanted Christians dead. Jehovah loved Paul even before Paul repented, while he was on the road to Damascus to go be naughty to some Christians. Jesus opened Paul's eyes so he could see clearly.

 

43 minutes ago, boyle said:

Who visited Abraham? 

 

Jehovah did.

 

The Bible shows that Jehovah visited Abraham. Jehovah materialized a body and visited Abraham. (No man has seen God at anytime in God's full glory, but lots of people have seen Jehovah in a materialized form in the Bible. God materialized and talked to Moses face-to-face in the tent. God materialized and talked to Adam and Eve in the garden, that's why it says they hid from "the face of Jehovah".)

 

"Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day.  He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground."

 

Abraham saw Jehovah in a materialized body.  

 

"Then he said: “Jehovah, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.  Please, let a little water be brought and have your feet washed; then recline under the tree.  Seeing that you have come here to your servant, let me bring a piece of bread so that you may refresh yourselves. Then you may go on your way.” 

 

"At this they said: “All right. You may do as you have spoken.” 

 

Abraham washed Jehovah's feet.

 

"So Abraham hurried to the tent to Sarah and said: “Quick! Get three measures of fine flour, knead the dough, and make loaves of bread.”  Next Abraham ran to the herd and chose a tender and good young bull. He gave it to the attendant, who hurried to prepare it.  He then took butter and milk and the young bull that he had prepared and set the food before them. Then he stood by them under the tree as they were eating." 

 

Jehovah ate.

 

"They said to him: “Where is your wife Sarah?” He replied: “Here in the tent.”  So one of them continued: “I will surely return to you next year at this time, and look! your wife Sarah will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the tent entrance, which was behind the man.  Abraham and Sarah were old, being advanced in years. Sarah was past the age of childbearing.  So Sarah began to laugh to herself, saying: “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I really have this pleasure?”  Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Am I really going to give birth even though I am old?’  Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah? I will return to you next year at this appointed time, and Sarah will have a son.”  But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh!” for she was afraid. At this he said: “Yes! You did laugh.”

 

Jehovah talked to Abraham. (Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?)

 

"When the men got up to leave and looked down toward Sodʹom, Abraham was walking with them to escort them.  Jehovah said: “Am I keeping hidden from Abraham what I am going to do?  Why, Abraham is surely going to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by means of him.  For I have come to know him in order that he may command his sons and his household after him to keep Jehovah’s way by doing what is right and just, so that Jehovah may bring about what he has promised concerning Abraham.” 

 

Jehovah talked more with Abraham.

 

"Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy.  I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” 

 

Jehovah went to check it out personally.

 

"Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham.  Then Abraham approached and said: “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked?  Suppose there are 50 righteous men within the city. Will you, then, sweep them away and not pardon the place for the sake of the 50 righteous who are inside it?  It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?”  Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.”  But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes.  Suppose the 50 righteous should lack five. Because of the five will you destroy the whole city?” To this he said: “I will not destroy it if I find there 45."

 

Jehovah is reasonable.

 

"But yet again he spoke to him and said: “Suppose 40 are found there.” He answered: “I will not do it for the sake of the 40.”  But he continued: “Jehovah, please, do not become hot with anger, but let me go on speaking: Suppose only 30 are found there.” He answered: “I will not do it if I find 30 there.”  But he continued: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah: Suppose only 20 are found there.” He answered: “I will not destroy it for the sake of the 20.”  Finally he said: “Jehovah, please, do not become hot with anger, but let me speak just once more: Suppose only ten are found there.” He answered: “I will not destroy it for the sake of the ten.”  When Jehovah finished speaking to Abraham, he went his way and Abraham returned to his place."

 

Certainly Jehovah will rescue all the little sheep who are in the different sects and everywhere else. 

 

"He does great and unsearchable things, 

Wonderful things that cannot be counted.  

He passes by me, and I cannot see him; 

He moves past me, but I do not discern him."

 

"Search for Jehovah while he may be found. 

Call to him while he is near. 

Let the wicked man leave his way 

And the evil man his thoughts; 

Let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy on him, 

To our God, for he will forgive in a large way."

 

(Goodnight, @boyle 😌🌷)

[derek1956]

These are not Jehovahs Witnesses

Do you go to a convention or a meeting in a football shirt?

Theses are apostates 

What do they have in common with the true faith?

NONE, NOTHING

They even try and copy us

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, derek1956 said:

These are not Jehovahs Witnesses

Do you go to a convention or a meeting in a football shirt?

Theses are apostates 

What do they have in common with the true faith?

NONE, NOTHING

They even try and copy us

 

 

 

Thank you so much for responding, @derek1956. I hope you are well today.🌷

 

Please consider, my brother, these things...

 

"Now I would have you know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit."

 

"John said to him: “Teacher, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he was not following us.”  But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one who will do a powerful work on the basis of my name who will quickly be able to say anything bad about me.  For whoever is not against us is for us.  And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.  But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea."

 

The only time the word "apostates" is used in the New World Translation is when talking about individuals still within Jehovah's Name People, Jehovah's organization:

 

"The elder and highly respected one is the head, 

And the prophet giving false instruction is the tail.  

Those leading this people are causing them to wander, 

And those who are being led are confused.  

That is why Jehovah will not rejoice over their young men, 

And he will have no mercy on their fatherless children and their widows 

Because all of them are apostates and evildoers 

And every mouth is speaking senselessness.  

In view of all this, his anger has not turned back, 

But his hand is still stretched out to strike."

 

"The sinners in Zion are in dread; 

Trembling has seized the apostates:  

‘Who of us can live where there is a consuming fire? 

Who of us can live with unquenchable flames?'"

 

Jesus did not say that "apostates" are identified by what they wear on the outside. He said they can be identified by what comes out of their mouths:

 

"At this he said: “Are you also still without understanding?  Are you not aware that whatever enters into the mouth passes through the stomach and is discharged into the sewer?  However, whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and those things defile a man.  For example, out of the heart come wicked reasonings: murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.  These are the things that defile a man; but to take a meal with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”"

 

"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh.  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

 

"Do not let your adornment be external—the braiding of hair and the wearing of gold ornaments or fine clothing—  but let it be the secret person of the heart in the incorruptible adornment of the quiet and mild spirit, which is of great value in the eyes of God."

 

Is there anywhere in the Bible that says there is a certain dress code for meetings for worship? No. There isn't. Do you really think the poor first century Christians wore ties and dress coats? Russell ran a gentleman's goods store. It's not surprising he would wear nice clothes, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not a commandment from Jesus to wear a suit.

 

It is a command to show love.

 

"Apostates" are not identified by their clothes. They are identified by their lack of love.

 

"You must love your brother as yourself."

 

"Keep on speaking and behaving in such a way as those do who are going to be judged by the law of a free people.  For the one who does not practice mercy will have his judgment without mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

 

Please, be careful @derek1956, that you keep on the true garments of righteousness. We must dress modestly, of course, so that our flesh is covered but other than that Love is the only "required" garment.

 

Jesus said: "Because you say, “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know that you are miserable and pitiful and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be exposed, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes so that you may see."

 

"“Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”"

 

"Let your love be without hypocrisy." 

 

"Love covers a multitude of sins." 

 

"Clothe yourselves with love."

[John 12.24to28]

3 hours ago, boyle said:

I see you have caused a great confusion in understanding

 

You are blind, my dear, so you cannot see anything. That's okay. There is still time. Someday hopefully you will see. I really hope you have a good day, @boyle.💖

[John 12.24to28]

4 hours ago, derek1956 said:

These are not Jehovahs Witnesses

Do you go to a convention or a meeting in a football shirt?

Theses are apostates 

What do they have in common with the true faith?

NONE, NOTHING

They even try and copy us

 

 

 

Dear brother @derek1956, here is some more on clothing...

 

"My brothers, you are not holding to the faith of our glorious Lord Jesus Christ while showing favoritism, are you?  For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in splendid clothing comes into your meeting, but a poor man in filthy clothing also enters,  do you look with favor on the one wearing the splendid clothing and say, “You take this seat here in a fine place,” and do you say to the poor one, “You keep standing” or, “Take that seat there under my footstool”?  If so, do you not have class distinctions among yourselves, and have you not become judges rendering wicked decisions? Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor from the world’s standpoint to be rich in faith and heirs of the Kingdom, which he promised to those who love him?"

 

Also to think about, how does Jehovah judge whether someone is an "unbeliever"? 

 

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?  Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever?  And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”  “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’”  “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

 

Jehovah doesn't say a person is an unbeliever if they don't believe the same way as you or I believe. A "Believer" is someone who believes Jesus is God's Son. Some people are a little bit mixed up on the details. Some people think Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah is patient. He hasn't thrown anybody out yet. Jesus hasn't come to do the judging yet. Is it right for any of us to label a person who says "I believe" as if they are an unbeliever and then cast them outside of our affections, shunning them, and saying "they're not one of Jehovah's witnesses" or "they're not a true Christian"?

 

"Make room for us in your hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one.  I do not say this to condemn you. For I have said before that you are in our hearts to die together and to live together.  I have great freeness of speech toward you. I have great boasting in regard to you. I am filled with comfort; I am overflowing with joy in all our affliction."

 

Jehovah is removing the walls. Jehovah is gathering the flock together. The details of prophecy will be ironed out later. They are not as important as love.

 

"Keep following the Lamb wherever he goes."

 

Even a kid can follow the Lamb. Jesus isn't complicated. Show love.

 

"So calling a young child to him, he stood him in their midst  and said: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens.  Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one who is the greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens;  and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me also.  But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea."

 

Jesus is going to call to account those "stumbling blocks" who try to prevent others from accessing the love of the congregation. Jesus is going to call to account those "stumbling blocks" who make up extra rules to make it difficult for the flock. Jesus is going to call to account those "stumbling blocks" who are causing divisions by means of withholding love from other believers, whether those believers are labeled "disfellowshipped" or "apostate" or "too worldly". (It's just like the corban thing.)

 

“Woe to the world because of the stumbling blocks! Of course, it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes!  If, then, your hand or your foot makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire.  Also, if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Ge·henʹna.  See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven."

 

The time is near for the divisions in the watch tower to end. The UN is going to get rid of all the religious institutions, and then the sheep will follow Jesus instead of men. Jesus will gather us all together. Praise Jehovah.

 

"“What do you think? If a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays, will he not leave the 99 on the mountains and set out on a search for the one that is straying?  And if he finds it, I certainly tell you, he rejoices more over it than over the 99 that have not strayed.  Likewise, it is not a desirable thing to my Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish."

 

We must become "Just like a child" to follow the Lamb.

 

https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/original-songs/just-like-a-child/?content=video

[Space Merchant]

@Srecko Sostar brought this article up a while ago, division is common in all groups and institutions, etc. This article was also brought up by the very EXJW that got terminated off of YouTube because of his views of the whole 1975 thing differed greatly, granted he (and others) mentioned that some JWs have dwelled in speculation of their own, thus creating the division internally.

As for the bit of Communism and Romania, that was also talked about too, for if I remember correctly, comments where made concerning that. I believe it was @Isabella who brought this up also, but did not note the article in question.

That being said, outside of the serious divisions (like Biblical inerrancy vs. infallibility or the COVID-19 stuff), I've seen and heard of religious folks get worked up on things as simple as, and or pretty silly stuff, such as the color of a carpet inside of religious buildings, specific foods sparking outrage between pastors, ministers, etc. As of recent, somewhat concerning, the whole gender situation and it being mixed into the Abrahamic Faiths.

 

@derek1956 Former members of any faith, group, institution and or business, etc. will always say the opposite and or mix things on a social platform, even media. Therefore, the division caused by it, there is usually an agenda at play. This is the case with us Biblical Unitarians whereas division is caused just by adhering to Jesus pre-existing, and because of that, negative things are said concerning those who believe this.

Then again, the world in it's current state, idle hands are the devil’s playground, in relation to that verse, you will find such ones of this magnitude anywhere at any given time, as is those influenced by it.

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

I've seen and heard of religious folks get worked up on things as simple as, and or pretty silly stuff, such as the color of a carpet inside of religious buildings, specific foods sparking outrage between pastors, ministers, etc.

 

I agree that it is silly to have divisions because of non-Bible-command things. (We obviously would not share spiritual fellowship with those who call themselves a brother who practice things that God hates. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is wrong, and murder, etc... Although some of the different churches in Christendom teach various things, the individuals who can be found in those churches really can't be lumped together and judged as one since they don't all adhere to every single teaching of their churches, just like some Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe every single teaching of the FDS.)

 

I haven't yet had the pleasure of talking to any of my brothers from the True Witnesses of Jehovah or any other group like that, but I will welcome them as my brothers should I get the opportunity, just like I will welcome my brothers from Jehovah's Witnesses or my brothers who are believers among the so-called "disfellowshipped" or so-called "apostates" or Christendom. I wouldn't take part in any ritual or practice that I do not think is scriptural, but that doesn't mean I don't consider those ones not to be brothers just because they have a slightly different understanding at present. (Jehovah's Witnesses used to celebrate Christmas and use the cross in worship too. We still consider them as brothers when we talk about them historically.) "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”  And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: “Look! My mother and my brothers!  For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, that one is my brother and sister and mother." If a person is doing their best to follow the Christ, who am I to judge them as not worthy of love and brotherly affection?

 

I will welcome them in love as brothers because that's what Jesus said to do, and "we must obey God as ruler rather than man." All of us are at different stages in our knowledge and understanding of the Bible. If we exclude people when they are first starting to learn because we feel they're not as "holy", how is that imitating the Christ, who was willing to come hang out with all (humankind) of us even though we didn't understand anything correctly? We have permission to love unbelievers. How much more so we should show love for those who already love the Father and the Son! We are family. We don't need more divisions.

 

If we are really one of Jehovah's witnesses, then we have to have love. "God is Love".

[John 12.24to28]

When the beastly governments are gone ("the heavens" of this world) and when the religious institutions are gone (Babylon the Great) and it's just the Kingdom ruling, how much peace there will be. No more divisions, at last!

 

"Loyal love and faithfulness will meet together; 

Righteousness and peace will kiss each other."

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

the world in it's current state, idle hands are the devil’s playground

 

We must keep active in love and actively work to show love to others.

 

"But in your case, beloved ones, we are convinced of better things, things related to salvation, even though we are speaking in this way.  For God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name by ministering and continuing to minister to the holy ones.  But we desire each one of you to show the same industriousness so as to have the full assurance of the hope down to the end,  so that you may not become sluggish, but be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

the division caused by it, there is usually an agenda at play

 

The Devil's agenda is to divide us. Jehovah has a different agenda, and Jehovah's agenda is the One we must follow.

 

"Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God.  And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him."

 

"Union" means to be one with somebody. We must be One in Love with those who acknowledge that Jesus is God's Son. That's Jehovah's agenda.

 

 

"Beloved ones, if this is how God loved us, then we are also under obligation to love one another."

 

"Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God.  And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him.  In this way love has been made perfect in us, so that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment, because just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world."

 

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love.  We love, because he first loved us."

 

"If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.  And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother."

 

"Who really is my brother?" God's Word says our brother is whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God's Son. 

[John 12.24to28]

43 minutes ago, boyle said:

Yes, there are plenty of your kind of brothers that are not associated with the watchtower. Being an unrepentant disfellowshiped person however does not constitute splintering of the watchtower.

 

I am not an "unrepentant" person. I repent for my sins. I have done nothing for which to be "disfellowshipped" and I have not "disfellowshipped" most of those who shun me. (Although I did refuse to say "Amen" to the prayers of the corrupt elders who bore false witness about me and who I knew were actively taking part in serious wrongdoing.) I still "associate" with WTBTS by means of watching the meetings every week and reading the articles and watching the videos online. I do not agree with everything they publish, but I have not separated myself from the organization. The elders literally drove me away (by means of bans and revoking implied invitation) by telling me I am not welcome since I won't stop greeting my brothers - they got mad because I said hello to the friends at the Kingdom Hall and the assembly. (I wrote about the most recent time they ran me off in the Status Update on my profile.)

 

I have not cut off my affections for them, even if some of them cut off their affections for me. I will obey Jesus' command to show love for all the brothers, even if they decide they want to "shun" me. They will come around eventually and realize how foolish it is for them to cause such divisions. Jesus will clear things up soon.

[John 12.24to28]

34 minutes ago, boyle said:

why don't you start behaving first?

 

😝🤪😜🙃🥸🤭😬😎😌😘😉

[John 12.24to28]

Hope you have a lovely day, @boyle!🥰