Coincidence or Correlation?

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

This is long; please, bear with me. 

As soon as we place ourselves in the hands of a religious “organization”, men decide how we are to worship. Organizational guidelines will have already been set in place, with expectations established for its members.  The Bible already tells us how to worship – Jesus was telling the woman at the well how to worship – in spirit and in truth.    Through prayerful guidance, we realized spiritual freedom comes through faith in the power of God. 

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”  Gal 5:1 

We have just one biblical account of a letter reaching to all congregations, concerning a major issue affecting the spread of Christianity in pureness.   Just one.  It was dealing with the transformation process of moving away from Jewish law that Jesus fulfilled.  Col 2:14; Eph 2:14-16  Does this give cause for the belief that an organization was present; that men “organized” the preaching work?  Paul and Barnabas addressed a prevalent issue, happening in Antioch and in Jerusalem.  Obviously, the brothers in Jerusalem hadn’t taken care of it until Paul and Barnabas showed up. Acts 15:24

“Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.   They wrote this letter by them:  The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.”  Acts 15:22

Everyone was involved in the process, unlike the GB’s use of a handful of men passing decrees behind closed doors, concerning biased doctrine that has nothing to do with truth in scripture – doctrine that must be swallowed down without a second thought, whether sound from a human standpoint or not.  Matt 24:26; 2 Tim 4:3-5

The decrees that the apostles, elders and the whole church, settled upon:

We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. ²⁸ For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: ²⁹ that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.  Acts 15:27-29

No greater burden!! Did these decrees go beyond the things already written down in God’s Word? 

We have much proof that Holy Spirit directed individuals in the preaching work.

 “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. ¹² For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Gal 1:11

“But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, ¹⁶ to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, ¹⁷ nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.”  Gal 1:15-17

Phillip was directed by Holy Spirit; Acts 8:26,27,29 as well as Barnabas, Acts 13:2

In these early congregation of believers, “elders” were the anointed ones, fulfilling their role as “priests”.  1 Pet 5:1-4

Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.”

1 Pet 2:5 “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

Have you had an opportunity to hear or read Fred Franz’s talk on how the early preaching work was accomplished?  If not, I think you will be surprised. I can’t seem to find the audio version anymore, but you can read it. 

http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/minimoog-898174-gilead-grad-talk-59th-class/

Sometimes, even the Watchtower leaders slip in words of truth but practice the opposite. Jesus words can aptly apply during these fleeting moments:

“Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”  Matt 23:3

CT Russell - "Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216.)

"In view of these facts and also of the nature of the harvest work, and the addition. In fact that each one so gathered is expected to enter into the harvest work as a reaper, and will do so to the extent of his ability and opportunity, it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan; and, it done, would seem to indicate on the part of the Church a desire to conform to the now popular idea of organization or confederacy. (See Isa. 8:12.) ... While, therefore, we do not esteem a visible organization of the gathered ones to be a part of the Lord's plan in the harvest work, as though we expected as an organization to abide here for another age, we do esteem it to be his will that those that love the Lord should speak often one to another of their common hopes and joys, or trials and perplexities, communing together concerning the precious things of his Word, and so help one another, and not forget the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is; and so much the more as they see the day approaching. -- Mal. 3: 16; Heb. 10:25." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384.)

The preaching of the “good news” had great success in the first century. Matt 4:23;3:2; 11:5; Mark 1:14; Acts 20:25; 28:23,31; Luke 2:10,14    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+4%3A23%3B3%3A2%3B+11%3A5%3B+Mark+1%3A14%3B+Acts+20%3A25%3B+28%3A23%2C31%3B+Luke+2%3A10%2C14 &version=NKJV

Yet, in the apostle’s day, how far was the “good news” preached?  Rom 10:18; 1:8; Acts 17:6; Col 1:6,23; 1 Thess 1:8  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.10%3A18%3B+1%3A8%3B+Acts17%3A6%3B+Col.1%3A6%2C23%3B+1Thess.1%3A8.&version=NKJV

The “world” in that day encompassed all tribes, peoples and tongues of God’s nation.  Rev 5:9,10; Acts 10:34,35; 15:4; 13:47; Isa 49:6; Matt 10:6,7,23 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+5%3A9%2C10%3B+Acts+10%3A34%2C35%3B+15%3A4%3B+13%3A47%3B+Isa+49%3A6%3B+Matt+10%3A6%2C7%2C23&version=NKJV

Where is the “good news” preached at the time of the end?

“When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:23

“Israel” –

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,  nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”  Rom 9:6,7 (Rom 2:29)

“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.” 1 Pet 2:9,10

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed”  Rev 7:4

Matt 24:14  from the Greek Kingdom Interlinear (WT):   “And will be preached this good news of the kingdom in whole the inhabited [earth] into witness to all the nations and then the end will come”

Ok, according to Matt 10:23 the preaching work right before the end is to the “cities of Israel” – God’s anointed people.  The “inhabited earth”, “οἰκουμένῃ”, are the “cities of Israel” and God’s “inhabited earth” – “the people of God.” 1 Pet 2: 10; Eph 2:20-22; John 14:23

 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

Rev 14:3 verifies “Israel” in Rev 7:4 above, is the “earth”:

“They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.”

God’s anointed ones are the target of the end time preaching work.  Since the “Gentile” “man of lawless”/”ELDER” body has “trampled upon” God’s anointed priesthood, extinguishing all power of the “holy ones”, the call goes out to FLEE – leave Watchtower’s delusion, their false prophesies, sins, their idolatry to an organization as one’s salvation, behind.  Dan 11:31; 12:11; 2 Tim 3:1,5,7,8

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),  “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:15,16; Isa 56:7; 2 Pet 1:18; Zech 8:2,3; Joel 3:17; Rev 14:1  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A15%2C16%3B+Isa+56%3A7%3B+2+Pet+1%3A18%3B+Zech+8%3A2%2C3%3B+Joel+3%3A17%3B+Rev+14%3A1&version=NKJV

The “holy place” is described in 2 Thess 2:3,4 as God’s Temple, which is the holy priesthood.  1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22,10

 ^“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as Godin the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

This is the sign that the Great Tribulation is at hand.  Everyone, will receive God’s righteous judgment, accordingly.  God’s anointed people and those who happen to be with them, are the focus of Revelation’s prophesy.  THEY have fallen for Satan’s end time delusion, his last piece of work to destroy those in Christ.  Gen 3:15; 2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,4,6-15; 18:4-8

 

 

As soon as we place ourselves in the hands of a religious “organization”, men decide how we are to worship. Organizational guidelines will have already been set in place, with expectations established for its members.  The Bible already tells us how to worship – Jesus was telling the woman at the well how to worship – in spirit and in truth.    Through prayerful guidance, we realized spiritual freedom comes through faith in the power of God. 

Not quite, because there are those who are attempting to be closer to the truth vs those who are not and at times use what they consider as truth to attack others who try to stick to what the bible teaches, reasons why there is religious organizations to this day is because those who bare what isn’t from scripture result in a schism and or split, and those who take into account the scriptures end up forming their group, believing what they teach is really from scripture compared to others who cherry-pick or refrain from teaching what is true. For Organized religion also known as “institutional religion” is religion in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established. Organized religion is typically characterized by an official doctrine, a hierarchical or bureaucratic leadership structure, and a codification of rules and practices.

Religious organizations have been around for a while, predating even the Bible Students and various others, into the days of Rome and beyond. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses/Bible Students, they stem from The Restoration Movement (also known as the American Restoration Movement or the Stone-Campbell Movement, and pejoratively as Campbellism). A Christian movement that began on the United States frontier during the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840) of the early 19th century. The pioneers of this movement were seeking to reform the church from within and sought "the unification of all Christians in a single body patterned after the church of the New Testament. Especially since the mid-20th century, members of these churches do not identify as Protestant but simply as Christian. The history can be read up on here:

Restoration Movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

Second Awakening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening

Note:

The Second Great Awakening, a period of religious revival that occurred in the United States during the early 1800s, saw the development of a number of unrelated churches. They generally saw themselves as restoring the original church of Jesus Christ rather than reforming one of the existing churches. A common belief held by Restorationists was that the other divisions of Christianity had introduced doctrinal defects into Christianity, which was known as the Great Apostasy. In Asia, Iglesia ni Cristo is a known restorationist religion that was established during the early 1900s.

Some of the churches originating during this period are historically connected to early 19th-century camp meetings in the Midwest and Upstate New York. American Millennialism and Adventism, which arose from Evangelical Protestantism, influenced the Jehovah's Witnesses movement and, as a reaction specifically to William Miller, the Seventh-day Adventists. Others, including the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Christian Church in Canada, Churches of Christ, and the Christian churches and churches of Christ, have their roots in the contemporaneous Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, which was centered in Kentucky and Tennessee. Other groups originating in this time period include the Christadelphians and Latter Day Saint movement. While the churches originating in the Second Great Awakening have some superficial similarities, their doctrine and practices vary significantly.

With that in mind, you have to also take into consideration not just the Bible Students in those days, but of others as well. For there had been various groups that have broken off from

I advise you to look into the history of Christianity, for there were reasons as to why some groups have broken off from each other, either from within or from the outside. To ignore this part in Christian history is just a silly thing to do, for it is better understood if one reads up on the history so that they gain a better understanding as to why there is so many denominations in Christianity, why various beliefs that seem identical, etc.

We have just one biblical account of a letter reaching to all congregations, concerning a major issue affecting the spread of Christianity in pureness.   Just one.  It was dealing with the transformation process of moving away from Jewish law that Jesus fulfilled.  Col 2:14; Eph 2:14-16 

Does this give cause for the belief that an organization was present; that men “organized” the preaching work?  Paul and Barnabas addressed a prevalent issue, happening in Antioch and in Jerusalem.  Obviously, the brothers in Jerusalem hadn’t taken care of it until Paul and Barnabas showed up. Acts 15:24

On the contrary,

Epistle to the Colossians (New Testament writing addressed to Christians at Colossae)

We learn in this epistle to the Colossians, sent by Paul, that falsehood and teachings that are not of truth are overwriting and in an attempt to rid the truth, the teachings of the gospel that was spoken by the Messiah. For we see that these persons have blotted out the handwritten records of the teachings, the decrees that are deemed the truth.

Colossians 2:14 [Alive in Christ/ Watch out for Deceivers] reads: by canceling the record [A] of debt that stood against us [C] with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. [D] – ESV

[A]: Exodus 34:27, Deuteronomy 31:24-26, Hebrews 7:18            : Ephesians 2:14, 15

[C]: Romans 7:10, Galatians 3:10                                               [D]: Galatians 3:13, Hebrews 9:15, 1 Peter 2:24

To the Ephesians

What we see in those verses is that of people being one with Christ, taking in knowledge of him and adhering to the teachings he, Jesus, preached, therefore also taking in and learning of the Father, for Jesus himself stated: “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.” - John 14:10 (see to John 7:16, 8:28, 12:49). In doing so, Christians, true Christians not will also have the fullness of God dwelling in them for they know these things (knowledge of the Son in turn taking in knowledge of the Father). In the entirety of Ephesians 2, nothing regarding the affect of the teachings being accursed and or some other doctrine being preached, as you stated the following here: concerning a major issue affecting the spread of Christianity in pureness.   Just one.  It was dealing with the transformation process of moving away from Jewish law that Jesus fulfilled

Ephesians 2:14-16 [Made alive with the Christ (One in Christ), Wall of Separation Destroyed] reads:

(14) For he himself is our peace [A], who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [C] (15) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man [D] in place of the two, so making peace, (16) and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross [E], thereby killing the hostility (by means of himself).

[A]: Colossians 1:19, 20 : Colossians 3:11

[C]: Leviticus 20:26, Colossians 2:13, 14 [D]: 1 Corinthians 12:12, Galatians 3:28

[E]: Hebrews 2:12 [F]: Acts 10:28

“Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.   They wrote this letter by them:  The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.”  Acts 15:22

Acts 15:22 is regarding The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers (Letter from the body of Church Leaders).For when we read such verse you have to take into consideration its context, ignoring context and not explaining it after quoting it will not allow the reader to understand the verse.

For this verse, brief explanation, the Apostles and the Elders, together with the whole church decide to send out chosen men from among them to Antioch. Of course we will easily be familiar with these men mention, being Paul and Barnabas. Along with them, were also Judas (who was called Barsabbas) and Silas, leading men among brethren.

Everyone was involved in the process, unlike the GB’s use of a handful of men passing decrees behind closed doors, concerning biased doctrine that has nothing to do with truth in scripture – doctrine that must be swallowed down without a second thought, whether sound from a human standpoint or not.  Matt 24:26; 2 Tim 4:3-5

Everyone was involved with the process, which is correct, we see this when it came to the decrees regarding the true teachings of scripture, in addition to coming to an agreement when it came to those being sent off to minster to others and the like. You claim the following “the GB’s use of a handful of men passing decrees behind closed doors, concerning biased doctrine that has nothing to do with truth in scripture – doctrine that must be swallowed down without a second thought, whether sound from a human standpoint or not.” yet you do not give any examples at all, expecting us, the readers to take your word for granted without bringing up examples of such? How I see this response is no different from you stating that “the scriptures is 100% inspired” when I gave proof that the scriptures “Isn’t 100% inspired” due to Man’s meddling of the scriptures, and I have given example of this and proof, not spitting out claims for others to “swallow without a thought”.

Also again, if you post scripture, say it and briefly explain it if you can.

Matthew 24:26 [Dangers of being misled by false Christs/The Abomination of Desolation] reads: So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

2 Timothy 4:3-5 [Fully accomplish your ministry, Preach the word urgently] reads: (3) I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. (4) As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy. (5) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.

The question that can be raised, is those who adhere to the Great Commission lairs, are they not close to what that even is or teaches it or do they abandon it, don’t teach something that is vital and was very important to Jesus?

As for what I stated before about “inspired scripture”, you answered that “100% the scriptures were inspired”, so if majority of people state that the scriptures have been tampered with, including our early church fathers, why say such is true, misleading me on something I am very well aware of? So clearly this example used against you just shows that you are mislead yourself, and possibly mislead on other things as well.

The decrees that the apostles, elders and the whole church, settled upon:

We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. ²⁸ For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: ²⁹ that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.  Acts 15:27-29

No greater burden!! Did these decrees go beyond the things already written down in God’s Word? 

The decrees were in fact the teachings, nothing less, nothing more. This is why the early church leaders and elders speak of, time and time again as well as to be careful of falsehood, as well as treating our brothers and sisters. But now the other problem you face is the “Nazareth Vow”, another thing that seems alien to majority of Christians today. All in all, Christians are to adhere to what is said in Acts 15:27-29 as well as God’s Word, for any man or woman can agree to what Acts 15:27-29 says, but at the same time ignore God’s Word itself, for God’s Word isn’t limited to that small section of scripture.

We have much proof that Holy Spirit directed individuals in the preaching work.

 “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. ¹² For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Gal 1:11

Actually, the teachings itself did not originate with man, which is true, and we know that Jesus himself taught these things, at the same time, these teachings are of his own, but from the Father, Almighty God, Yahweh. Because Galatians 1:11, whereas the point is “Paul Called by God (Good news preached by Paul comes from God), verses 11-23”.

That one verse connects to 1 Thessalonians 2:13, for the point of here is “Thessalonians accepted God’s word (Paul's Ministry to the Thessalonians), verses 1-16”.

It reads: And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

That verse also points to verses 2 and 3 found in 1 Thessalonians 1 (The Thessalonians' Faith and Example): (2) We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, (3) remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

So us as Christians know that: The teachings of God’s Word did not originate with us men, for it came through a revelation by Jesus Christ, in turn, the Word of God spoken by Jesus, originates from Yahweh, God the Father Himself. Anything that deviates from such is considered false and or accursed, a teaching that some claim to be of God’s spoken word that became flesh, but speaks differently from that of the scriptures, and therefore, we are to avoid false prophets. This includes false prophets who have “Altered the scriptures/Bible and speak of said altercations as Words inspired by God”.

As for Galatians 1:15-17, just briefly interpret it. For it speaks of Paul being called by God, so to speak as well as Paul’s conversion and early activity, promoting him on what he began to do.

Phillip was directed by Holy Spirit; Acts 8:26,27,29 as well as Barnabas, Acts 13:2

That is true of Barnabas, but also we know that the work has been accomplished, Barnabas along with another minster who accompanied him, were back in Antioch by about 47 C.E. and from there left on a missionary assignment under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Barnabas was indeed a good person, full of both Holy Spirit and of Faith, as we are aware of regarding Acts 11:23, 24. We also know he was a teacher, as well as a prophet in Antioch for we see this in Acts 13:1.

Barnabas, as the apostles have stated, is as among their dear loved ones, among men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, Acts 15:25, 26. Although Barnabas was also not among or even considered to be one of the 12 apostles, he was properly called an apostle in Acts 14:14, for, indeed, he was one, as Acts 13:4, 43 states “being sent out by the Holy Spirit.

Now then regarding Phillip, you are incorrect on one point, just verse 26 because it was an Angel of Yahweh (Angel of the Lord) who spoke to him at first, for it was this divine direction given to Philip at first, THEN we have the Spirit come into play, Acts 8:29, 39, a simple mistake like that can convince a reader that the Spirit is an Angel or that the Angel is the Spirit (for people already know that humanoid spirit beings, bene elohim, are Angels).We now know that both the “Angel of the Lord (Angel of Yahweh)” and the Spirit (Holy Spirit) are employed in guiding Philip to the Eunuch.

This is why you have to read what the scriptures says instead of just saying quoting and or making reference to it, you may know it, but the reader may not know, for as Christians we need to let people know: read for context, explain briefly and or in detail of what the verse even means.

Acts 8 verses 26-40 speaks of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch, in addition, this includes verses 26, 27 and 29. Even when broken down, it still points to The Ethiopian eunuch (26-40).

Acts 8:27-29 reads (I will mark 26 in blue to separate from the verses you mentioned):

(26) Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. (27) And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship (28) and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. (29) And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”

As for verse 39, we see the following: And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

In these early congregation of believers, “elders” were the anointed ones, fulfilling their role as “priests”.  1 Pet 5:1-4

1 Peter 5:1-4 speaks of “Shepherding the Flock”. As elders, they are told on how to care for the flock, as well as to be humble and vigilant, in addition to throw all anxiety on God. It also speaks of avoiding the Devil, who is like a roaring lion, and finally concluding words Final Greetings. Also I would just leave it at the word “Elder” as to some in Christendom, “Elder” and “Priest” is seen as different from each other, somewhat identical.

Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.”

Please look into what Malachi 2:7 points to: Deuteronomy 24:8, 2 Chronicles 15:3, Nehemiah 8:7, 8 and Ezekiel 44: 23, 24 also. Especially with what you made in bold in that verse so it doesn’t seem to go out of context to the reader regarding elders.

1 Pet 2:5 “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrificesacceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

Yes, for the Spiritual house, as mentioned in Ephesians 2:21. Our sacrifices as seen in Hebrews 13:15. Acceptable to God through Jesus, Romans 12:1.

Have you had an opportunity to hear or read Fred Franz’s talk on how the early preaching work was accomplished?  If not, I think you will be surprised. I can’t seem to find the audio version anymore, but you can read it. 

Sometimes, even the Watchtower leaders slip in words of truth but practice the opposite. Jesus words can aptly apply during these fleeting moments:

Can you be more specific and quote these so called “slip in words of truth”? Instead of telling us something to accept, why not post some proof of these claims? Small quotes here and there, it didn’t stop you before. Because I don’t want to swallowed down something without a second thought. So if possible, please cite anything of a change or something you feel that is off instead of just telling us to look into it. As for me, I believe there is an audio somewhere, but some people do not like sharing at all, especially those who claim they have the audio, but lack sufficient proof of having it, or others tend to just keep it for themselves.

“Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”  Matt 23:3

That is true, we are not to accept the falsehood of those claiming to be Christians teach, or that of those who preach that false bible verses are God inspired, however some Christians do it anyways, as well as accursed the teachings, accept falsehood, cherry-pick and the like, as well as ignoring and or abandoning what the Great Commission even means, which is something insanely vital when it comes to not just learning the truth, but teaching it as well. This verse along is compared to Matthew 15:3 and 6, as well as Malachi 2:7,8, to which you have mentioned verse 7 previously.

As for all that red text you posted:

What is missed here is the fact that the Bible Student Movement is an “organization” that originated from the second awakening. CTR was pretty much saying here that there are other organizations (religious ones) who do not teach what is the truth and or the very teachings that come from the bible for they interpret it differently than what the scriptures say, hence what he continues on to say here: “The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." For if we go back to that point and time, one can easily see the number of denominations and their teachings, including some denominations that do not exist anymore, all under the Christian banner, for even CTR is aware of some Christians, who take in practices like occultism, which he himself calls it Spiritism (Spiritualism and the occult for CTR even attacked Spiritualism):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

You may want to re-check some of the history itself regarding 1^st century teachings of Christianity (during Jesus’ day and after his death within the 1^st century itself). For even the 1st century findings know who God the Father is, and they know of his Chosen Messiah (God's Christ), Jesus. One doesn't have to go far to make the research.
 

As for the rest, I read through it, but I suggest you take into account when you quote scripture or when you say it, read it for context, then when it is understood,then you are open to explain it, briefly and or in details, just posting links left and right isn't going to do you much. For one is to read the verses, read it for context and interpret it, and should they post it, one must give brief and or detailed information of what that verse is trying to say, to us for anyone of us here can go to read it, but one needs to keep in mind that even the "guests" here want to better understand what a specific verse means, regardless of one's religious background.

Plus most people are not a fan of anything regarding King James, me included.

Aside from that, how well versed are you in Christology and Theology when it comes to early Christians? I see you coined "1st century" so I am a bit curious.

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think in all fairness it can easily be seen that there was an earthly organisation of Christians from the time of Jesus onwards. 

What we think of the JW Org / WT GB now is of course a totally different matter. I do not think they are inspired of God, and I think they have jumped forward as and when they see fit, not relying on God to guide them. As for the Child Abuse, that seems to prove to me that the JW Org is not serving God properly.

However, I still feel that God will have a clean Organisation of some sort  before Armageddon. I also believe that some JW's will get through Armageddon and some who are not JW's will also get through. It will be an individual judgement.

I understand your feeling for that. However, there is an earthly organization, because what we need to remember what is said regarding Matthew 16:18, that informs us of the following "Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ".

The verse says: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

I am going to quote an Egyptian Girl, a Christian, that mentioned this because it was brought up in a Christian forum sometime ago, and I figured it is interesting regarding a religious organization on earth.

Quote

Peter evidently did not view himself as the rock or a literal rock on which Jesus would build his Church, since he wrote at 1 Peter 2 v4-8 that Jesus was the long-foretold foundation cornerstone, chosen by God himself. Similarly, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus as the foundation and the spiritual rock, 1 Corinthians 3 v11; 10 v4. So Jesus’s say and meaning on this to an effect, You, the one I called Peter, a Piece of Rock, have discerned the true identity of the Christ, this rock, the one who will serve as the foundation of the Christian Church.

Jesus said, but from the perspective of Peter, he didn't view himself as literally a rock until Jesus began explaining to him as to how and why Peter will be the foundation and or rock in figurative sense. That's why I referenced a bit this passage, 1 Peter 2 v4-8.

Some would say that Jesus was describing the statement that Peter had just made, that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God" as being the “rock” of faith that would be the foundation of the church.

Jesus foretells the formation of the Christian Church, made up of anointed chosen Christians, who as living stones are being “built up into a spiritual house, 1 Peter 2 v4, 5. Church is a rendered word from a Greek word off of the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus (or within the Septuagint that is also part of CS) from the 4th century, which often refers to the entire nation of God’s people, Deuteronomy 23 v3; 31 v30.

In Acts 7 v38, the Israelites who were called out of Egypt are referred to as a Church. Similarly, Christians who are called out of darkness” and chosen out of the world make up the Church of God, 1Peter 2 v9; John 15 v19, 1Corinthains 1 v2.

The Bible speaks of the dead as being within unto the gates of death, Ps 107 v18 and the gates of the Sheol Isa 38 v10 (or Hell, Grave, Hades in other translation), that is, subject to the power of death. Jesus promises victory over the Sheol, meaning that the gates of the Sheol will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection.

The Lord’s own resurrection confirmed the truthfulness of his promise, Matthew 16 v21. Because the Church is built on Jesus (and Jesus, also known as Christ is the Head of the Church, Colossians 1 v18), the one who can release those in death, it cannot be overpowered by or permanently restrained by Sheol. Acts 2 v31;Re 1 v18;20v13, 14.
As passing through the gates of Sheol would imply Death. So what Jesus is saying is that this Church will never die, it will never go out of existence.
This also goes for those who may say Jesus may be referring to his death: Sheol could not contain him, and it will not contain the Church either, those who are called out to belong to Christ. The Church will never succumb with the physical death of its members and fail; it will never die, as stated before.

The thing is, there is an organization, because it wouldn't make sense for Jesus to come back and not gather those of his church, for in scripture,it says it exist and death will not prevail against it.

As for inspired, most Christians are not inspired, however, they tend to be guided by Holy Spirit when it comes to taking in knowledge of both God and his Son. And I believe I stated before that mankind is imperfect, Jehovah's Witnesses are imperfect as well, so how they handle things doesn't justify that they are in the wrong, for if we are to attack something, we should be attacking the government, for they deem that religious institutions are open to handle things on their own, internally, and if they want, they can seek outside help if something is too much for them to handle, reasons why there is the term "Separation of Church and State" and the like.

But as for JWs, it may probably depend on what the elders says and how the family is to takes action, for if it were me and my child is victim, I would talk to the elders of what happen even having my child speak, and whether they tell me or not, I will go to the police so they can handle this, what can be done internally on the church's side, the elders,will most likely give some details on who the person is and I myself as a parent can see if so and so is indeed the person who did the crime. 

We also have to avoid any scenario that is Avenger of Blood-like, which has happen in our day and age (with either the church leaders being victim and or the pastors, or the person in question being a victim themselves, with either outcome being something tragic). There are reasons as to why some people do not like getting involve in something, so they stick to advising on what to do, doing small bits of investigation, giving you some information so that it can be handled outside of the church if the situation calls for it, if they believe something can be handled internally they will stick to that as well when it comes to something minor.

For someone people, even if advised, will often take action in their own hands with old fashion vigilante justice that reaps a brutal outcome that stems several consequences for both sides. Experienced Jehovah's Witnesses are known as pacifist in the eyes of Christendom, so it would be a shock if someone comes to them with intent to inflict physical violence because of advise to go seek assistance after something is done on their end.

But I believe I made the example before in another thread. In addition to that, those who commit child abuse, we have to remember they too are not right in the head, and some church leaders will either handle the situation themselves internally, or if done internally, they will advise parents to take action, and that's that, especially since most cases of abuse takes place within the very household of the victim.

And yes, all people who seek salvation by knowing Jesus is Lord and believing in God the Father, Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH, can and will be saved. So it is better to be close to the truth than be far from it.We also have to remember salvation can easily be lost, so we have o be careful, repent for what we do. One of the reasons I am not among those who are going against JWs is because I am not for Christian infighting, for such action just makes us pawns to the world's system. However, as Non-Trinitarians, when Trinitarian belief speaks of things that isn't in scripture (accursed Galatians 1:1-11), as a Non-Trinitarian, be it a JW or not, you are to stand up for what is true.For if you know the truth,you defend it, and when you do this, you ill confront those who will defend a false doctrine, and will deem you a fanatic, a false Christian, a Cultist, a Zealot, because you don't adhere to mainstream's Christianity, but this should not worry you, for if you believe in what is true, believe in the God that has raised Jesus from the dead and stick to scripture, then salvation is already in your hands.

In the end, God knows who is for him, and by means of his Son, the righteous and the meek will inherit the earth, and gain eternal life because they endured to the end.
 

[JOHN BUTLER]

This is an addition added after rereading your comment, but I wanted to put it here first. I really loved your last two paragraphs. They make complete sense. Thank you. 

I agree with you on most of your comment here. I will have to get my head together, reread your comment, and come back to you slightly later in the day. I am not anti -JW. I only left the Org because of what I'd discovered regarding the Child Abuse problems. However, from what I've gathered online, the Australian JW Org handed over the documents to the ARC, The UK JW Org handed over the documents to the Charity Commision, but, the USA JW Org /WT or Governing Body, or their legal departments, are refusing to hand over, what might possibly be twenty years worth of child Abuse accusations documents to the Supreme Court of California. Now if the online news is true, this is costing the American (or earthwide) JW Org $2,000 per day in fines. amounting to, it seems, over $2 million so far. ( Unfortunately i cannot seem to find any updates on this, which is frustrating. Is the JW Org actually paying this ? Do they still owe this ? Has it all been squashed and forgotten ? ) But I'm going off course herre. My point was that the Org in different countries are acting in different ways regarding this situation. Therefore it is splitting up the 'oneness' of the Organisation. In my opinion it cannot be 'against the law or rules of God' to obey 'the law of the land' in this matter. If it was then surely the Org in Australia and UK have gone against God ? It makes no sense. 

As for your last sentence, I fully agree with you. But, do we endure within an earthly organisation or do we endure alone ? We will of course be judged as individuals whether we are within or outside an Org. I do truly feel that the JW Org are right in many of their teachings and i can see the need for a lot of their instruction. but obviously the Org cannot be allowed to continue with it's wrongful course regarding Child Abuse / Pedophilea and some other issues. So for me its a case of, will God cleanse the JW Org ? Will God chose another Org ? Or will God help us as individuals to 'go it alone' ?  

Now backtracking a bit on your comments above. 

"But as for JWs, it may probably depend on what the elders says and how the family is to takes action, for if it were me and my child is victim, I would talk to the elders of what happen even having my child speak, and whether they tell me or not, I will go to the police so they can handle this, what can be done internally on the church's side, the elders,will most likely give some details on who the person is and I myself as a parent can see if so and so is indeed the person who did the crime". 

There are two issues here but once again I have no proof of the claims being made, only reading of many court cases that have quoted these things.

1. Many claims are being made (leading to many court cases) in the JW Org of different countries, that Elders were instructed to tell people not to report any child abuse to the police or any outside authority, as it would bring shame on the Org / Jehovah. Along with this there are also claims that people were threatened with being disfellowshipped for reporting things to the police / outside authorities.   And in some cases it would seem that people have been disfellowshipped and felt most alone as no one would even talk to them. 

2. Again claims have been made that the GB gave instruction that the Elders should not warn the congregation of pedophiles within their congregation. Therefore congregation members would not know they needed to be extra careful and they would have no idea who was 'unsafe'  for their children to be with. Remembering that the Kingdom Hall, though only being  a building and a meeting place, is supposed to be a very safe place for people to meet together, not only to give praise, but to feel secure and relaxed in each others company.  

So if these claims are true then the Elders 'hands are tied' and they cannot do anything of their own choice. 

I will add here, ( and this is what i find worrying ) that I had a case way back in 2009, when i reported an Elder to the Body of Elders of my congregation for something very serious and personal. Well, I say I reported it to the 'Body of Elders', and here is another problem, it seems my letter was only seen by two or three Elders and the rest of the Elders knew nothing about it. Anyway, I was called into the Kingdom Hall, to 'talk it through' with, what I thought would be the 'body of elders'. As it happened there were only two Elders present. One sat behind me and said nothing. The other Elder did all the talking and it was obvious from the outset that he had made his mind up about the matter before even listening to me. He did not even listen to my accusations against the Elder, it was easy to see that he was 'closing his ears to it all'. But what he did do was to say to me that I would be disfellowshipped if i did not retract everything i had said against that Elder. My response was simple, I told him, if he thought he had the authority to disfellowship me then he should go ahead and do it. I didn't wait for an answer, i got up and left the hall..... Needless to say nothing happened and i wasn't disfellowshipped. In fact i wasn't even reproved.

But what i found out for myself was,  the Elders would only believe what they wanted to believe, and, not all Elders are informed about things taking place within their own congregation. Hence when I resigned from the Org, I sent out emails to as many of the Elders as I could. (We have a list of Elders and their phone numbers and email addresses). So I was sure that most of the Elders knew I had resigned.... 

The reason I've added that personal experience is to show that i have fair to good reason not to trust the body of Elders, and to show that any person that may try to report Child Abuse or any other wrongdoing, may not get a fair hearing, especially if the accused is an Elder. I honestly think they 'protect their own' as it were. 

So I have a serious problem here. Do i return to the JW Org, which would mean being obedient to 'men' / Elders / Governing Body that i do not trust ?  Do I look for a different Org ? Or do i just 'go it alone' and try to serve God 'my own way'. If i went my own way would God help me if i prayed to him regularly? I honestly do not know what God wants from me, but i do know that serving God is of the utmost importance. God deserves to be served, He deserves praise and thanks, and as you have said, we should stand up for the truth and truthful teachings. 

I hope some of this makes sense. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

It all makes perfect sense ..... it is based on what is real, and not some Disneyland fantasy.

To understand why, with all the crap going on, I still "throw my hat in the ring" with Jehovah's Witnesses, you would have to see the movie "Hacksaw Ridge", to understand why people who are severely mistreated consider the mission more important than the bullys, the clueless, and the deeply flawed leadership that are blind guides, but are working for Theocratic interests and the common good, with their hands also tied behind their backs by policy wonks who have no clue as to what Justice and Mercy and fairness really is.

Throughout History, there is ALWAYS a time when Justice is supplanted by money interests ... people start building great construction projects.

Justice must be tempered with mercy for blind pawns doing the best they are allowed to be.

John 9:41

 

You do not fight wars with the Armies you want .... you fight wars with THE ARMIES YOU HAVE.

 

My suggestion, John Butler, is to "follow Jehovah's Chariot" closely, but follow the clown car on the road to life at a respectful distance, and realize the clown car  is NOT  dependable.

Nothing really is.

[Witness]

On 2/19/2018 at 9:43 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

However, I still feel that God will have a clean Organisation of some sort  before Armageddon. I also believe that some JW's will get through Armageddon and some who are not JW's will also get through. It will be an individual judgement. 

The true “mountainlike” organization is an administration of priests, chosen to become heirs of the earth as “firstfruits”, (James 1:18)  followed by the rest of God’s children to live on the earth – to also share in the inheritance of the earth that Jesus was the first to inherit.  The “144,000” are to serve God, Christ, and ALL children of God.  Just as the early priesthood served the needs of the people as well as taught them God’s laws; so too will the priests under their High Priest, Christ.  Eph 1:9-12; 1 Pet 2:9,10; Rom 8:19; Gal 3:9; Gen 13:14; 28:14; Heb 2:5,16; Rev 22:1,2; Ezek 34:27   

This is God’s organization and the only organization that He accepts.  It is pure, not tainted by Satan’s world.  You can learn more through the links I have earlier provided. 

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.  This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.  For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."  Heb.11:1,2,8,10,16; Rev.21

"So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal." 2Cor.4:18

So let us imitate our spiritual forefather Abraham, who lived by Faith, and not by sight (2Cor.5:7; Heb.6:11; 13:7).

 

[Space Merchant]

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

This is an addition added after rereading your comment, but I wanted to put it here first. I really loved your last two paragraphs. They make complete sense. Thank you. 

I agree with you on most of your comment here. I will have to get my head together, reread your comment, and come back to you slightly later in the day. I am not anti -JW. I only left the Org because of what I'd discovered regarding the Child Abuse problems. However, from what I've gathered online, the Australian JW Org handed over the documents to the ARC, The UK JW Org handed over the documents to the Charity Commision, but, the USA JW Org /WT or Governing Body, or their legal departments, are refusing to hand over, what might possibly be twenty years worth of child Abuse accusations documents to the Supreme Court of California. Now if the online news is true, this is costing the American (or earthwide) JW Org $2,000 per day in fines. amounting to, it seems, over $2 million so far. ( Unfortunately i cannot seem to find any updates on this, which is frustrating. Is the JW Org actually paying this ? Do they still owe this ? Has it all been squashed and forgotten ? ) But I'm going off course herre. My point was that the Org in different countries are acting in different ways regarding this situation. Therefore it is splitting up the 'oneness' of the Organisation. In my opinion it cannot be 'against the law or rules of God' to obey 'the law of the land' in this matter. If it was then surely the Org in Australia and UK have gone against God ? It makes no sense. 

No problem and your feeling towards something is understandable, you are among the lucky ones because when one goes anti-faith, they end up becoming anti-religion, and beyond that point becomes pure hatred and propaganda to attack the faith of others and or a specific group, at times it is done passively by those who repeatedly attack and or push conspiracy of a faith.

I am aware of the ARC and have been since the very beginning, especially 2012, which most people have never mentioned. Child Abuse is a global thing, in religion, schools, clubs, even in some businesses where children and or teens are present on the other side of the spectrum, you have people in today's world and society that promotes pedophilia as if it is something normal, pushing people to be okay with something which is obviously wrong, resulting in those with pedophilia urges to not seek out help and or act upon their urges. Now regarding the ARC, I watched and I read for all religious groups involved, even the Jehovah's Witnesses and how they response when questioned by the ARC members, as well as those of the victims, for anyone confronting the victim of child abuse be it they are involved or not is not an easy thing to do when the victim speaks on those who they wanted help from. In the end of the ARC, there had been final reports that have been made open to the public, regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses' final report, it speaks of what the JWs have learned, the actions JWs will take in promoting the safety for the children and even mentions the Two-Witness Rule, which was better explained and or clarified in the final reports document, etc.

 

I know about that one also, I believe it was $2,000 USD per day until evidence and or documents, any information of the abuse is given, $48,000 USD by the time of an appeal and the Campos situation of him hopping from one JW church to another, especially after his confession, thus eventually fleeing to the country he came from, Mexico.

Some documents were handed over, perhaps not as recent from the Linda Vista JW church, for it had showed that Campos' actions were known, but Campos himself may have confessed and convinced the JW elders of his repentance,  for Campos did state the following "He wants to return to Jehovah" as well as the willingness to face his victims to get their forgiveness, as what I am reading says. When even asked the church publicly, it is uncertain his victim(s) were present during that time nor were the members of that church were aware of his actions since he did not mention it, even when asking for forgiveness.

The whole Campos thing is a mixed back of skittles, so I will link it here for you to look at, for at least this source is neutral, going for either side, just stating facts, mind you, there is some words in this article that are not PG rated, so be advised:

Quote

A lawsuit is now settled between a former victim of sexual abuse and Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the court's website, the case is under a "conditional settlement." The terms and conditions of the settlement are not public.

José Lopez filed the lawsuit back in 2012, nearly 20 years after church elder Gonzalo Campos molested him and several other young children who were members of the Linda Vista congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

As reported by the Reader, Campos, who fled to Mexico to escape criminal charges, admitted to committing the acts to Lopez’s and another victim's attorney, Devin Storey, while giving testimony in one of the cases.

“I touched him in his private parts,” Campos testified.

Attorney Storey: “Did you touch his penis?”

Campos: “Yes.”

Storey: “Did you penetrate him?”

Campos: “Yes. Yes.”

Storey: “How many times?”

Campos: “More than once. I don’t know.”

In 2009, five other alleged victims sued the Watchtower and Bible and Tract Society of New York, the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, over the molestation by Campos and the Watchtower's refusal to act.

That case settled for an undisclosed amount in 2012, the same year that Lopez filed his lawsuit and a year before another victim, Osbaldo Padron, filed his.

Then, in 2015, a state court judge ruled that the Watchtower had failed to cooperate with discovery in the Lopez case. The judge awarded a $13.5 million judgment in favor of Lopez.

The Watchtower later appealed the decision and managed to get the decision rescinded and promised to produce the requested documents.

Meanwhile, a fight over documents was also occurring in Padron's case, the one filed shortly after Lopez’s lawsuit.

At issue was Watchtower’s refusal to turn over a letter from headquarters that asked for the names of alleged sexual abusers in the church.

But at the same time other documents had been released by the Linda Vista congregation, which showed the congregation and headquarters were aware that Campos had sexually assaulted young boys and a girl but still considered him eligible to return to the congregation.

“In our meeting with him he said he was very repentant for what he did,” wrote an elder at Linda Vista's congregation to Watchtower headquarters in New York in 1999.

“He stated that he wanted to return to Jehovah. He is willing to face the victims and ask their forgiveness. He now wants to obey Jehovah. Before, when he would speak to people on the platform he would not meditate on what he was doing. Although he needed to confess, he felt shameful and had fear of mankind. He would deceive himself thinking that he could continue serving as an elder. Now he realized that he could not change without help. Ever since his expulsion he has not abused anyone. He has read articles of the publications regarding his sin. He says he does not see or read pornographic information. He stated that ever since expulsion he has worked on having a relationship with Jehovah and the expulsion has served to strengthen him spiritually. He does not miss meetings, and he even takes notes of the program. He also said that he is willing to continue accepting Jehovah’s discipline.”

While the two sides continued to fight over discovery in the Lopez case, another judge issued sanctions against the Watchtower for refusing to turn over documents in the Padron case.

The Watchtower also appealed that decision as well.

As covered by the Reader, in November a state appellate court rejected the appeal, sending the case back to state court and keeping the $4000-per-day sanctions in place.

Meanwhile, as the Padron case was heading back to state court, attorneys for Lopez and Watchtower agreed to settle the Lopez case.

Lopez’s attorney, Irwin Zalkin, did not respond to a request for comment prior to publication of this article.

There is no word yet whether Padron's case has also been settled. A hearing is scheduled for next month.

The reality is, when it comes to most religious institutions, and or clubs, the handing over of documents/evidence and or its handling is always like this even in cases of child abuse, especially when previous and or older documents and or evidence pertaining to something isn't always found or like most areas if they have kept a database for an X amount of days it may or may not still be present there, putting those in question to turn in documents and or evidence of something difficult, so it is uncertain of how older documents is stored.

For the churches can teach, educate persons of the church, inform them about such, but it will be applied by people, especially parents with children, but those who is among the fold who have intent to do something to children will listen with one ear and what is said goes out the other, for their sick intent is strong. I say this because it is also a problem with us Unitairans, we teach about how to handle child abuse and the signs, but apparently it is still a problem.

 

Also it has not been forgotten. Cases take time, for the progress is on going and the more time it takes, the more details and information will soon be available public to see. The best thing to do is check back with updates ever week or so, perhaps a month at a time, for that is how it goes with situations regarding child abuse, murder, suicide, genocide, and unsolved mysteries, etc.

patience is key.

As for the money, I do not know if they still owe it for it was a lesser sanction applied to the WT and or had since ceased paying.

I wouldn't say acting different due to being in other countries, it usually depends on if they have the information or not, usually when a group and or business does not have up to date information of things, they tend to kill time trying to come up with something and or see most recent information they have, in this case, regarding the ARC not only did the JWs have most of the evidence and documents, but there physical proof of evidence is the words of the those in authority who actually had their say in the ARC. As for the $4k a day case, Campos had his way of trying to  talk his way out of trouble, as for the JWs they may have known something, but may not have any past evidence, only until later victims came forward, the recent information is documents have been made present, separate case, but the same abuser, with documents of another JW church, perhaps the one he went to, convinced and confessed to. 

As for obeying Law, Religious Law and Secular Law is a tricky subject, it doesn't only apply to JWs but for other faiths, and at times Religious and Secular Law do not always connected well with each other,  and there has been several examples of this already; for there is a point where religious law takes care of what the church needs and does and not always is secular law involved until some action causes them to get involved, that being child abuse should such goes beyond what the church, any church can handle. As so I wouldn't also say going against God for if you look into religious laws and laws of the land, the information is there. I actually had a link to some information, but I would have to go through my bookmarks to see if it is there still, which also applies to my previous comment about internal matters of the church.

 

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for your last sentence, I fully agree with you. But, do we endure within an earthly organisation or do we endure alone ? We will of course be judged as individuals whether we are within or outside an Org. I do truly feel that the JW Org are right in many of their teachings and i can see the need for a lot of their instruction. but obviously the Org cannot be allowed to continue with it's wrongful course regarding Child Abuse / Pedophilea and some other issues. So for me its a case of, will God cleanse the JW Org ? Will God chose another Org ? Or will God help us as individuals to 'go it alone' ?  

Well the thing is the righteous and the meek will inherit the earth. I know the JWs preach this, especially in regards to Salvation. Some have said the following:"If you are not a JW, you will be destroyed" I can tell you right now that this is false. Because anyone who follows the bible, especially that of the Old Testament, since some Christians do not accept the OT or pretend like it doesn't exist, will know Salvation is for all persons, be it you being part of a religious organization or not, however, the main difference between the two is that organized religious not only try to shepherd their flock,the followers to be religiously strong and maintain their faith, stuff like this isn't easy, for people of a church go under strict discipline in scripture, and they adhere to the Great Commission, actually going out there to preach and make disciples, convert people to learn the faith, become teachers and they too make disciples, doing this as it is part of their life as a Christian, as did the disciples, as did the early Christians, etc.and this path isn't an easy one.

Then you have those who endure alone. There is no problem with that, but you are still suppose to do what Jesus said regarding the Great Commission. What you can do is preach the word of God briefly to people when you have the chance, but you have to preach what is right an true, for most lone Christians tend to teach what is false.

In order to make God known, you have to follow the Son, do what he does when he preaches and teaches, as long as you do this, acknowledging Jesus and the on who has resurrected him, in doing so when the end times come to a close, you knowing who God is, and the Son, and teaching others so they can teach as well will also inherit the earth. Unlike organized religion, you have to be bible ready and adept to what is written because  one can easily take a false scripture or doctrine and preach/teach that is true.

As for both organized religions and lone Christians, teaching what is true will cause you to have A LOT OF ENEMIES, followed by persecution and or being pawns of religious/christian infighting.

All in all, people who really follow Christ, and slave for the one who has resurrected him, will be favored by the Father, so do not let anyone try to trick you using scripture to get you into believing of what is false or those trying to attack you thinking that you believe in false verses and or doctrines.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

1. Many claims are being made (leading to many court cases) in the JW Org of different countries, that Elders were instructed to tell people not to report any child abuse to the police or any outside authority, as it would bring shame on the Org / Jehovah. Along with this there are also claims that people were threatened with being disfellowshipped for reporting things to the police / outside authorities.   And in some cases it would seem that people have been disfellowshipped and felt most alone as no one would even talk to them. 

2. Again claims have been made that the GB gave instruction that the Elders should not warn the congregation of pedophiles within their congregation. Therefore congregation members would not know they needed to be extra careful and they would have no idea who was 'unsafe'  for their children to be with. Remembering that the Kingdom Hall, though only being  a building and a meeting place, is supposed to be a very safe place for people to meet together, not only to give praise, but to feel secure and relaxed in each others company.  

So if these claims are true then the Elders 'hands are tied' and they cannot do anything of their own choice. 

1. These are claims of course because most if JWs and or any Christian tells you to seek out authorities, that is not withholding anyone from taking that advise, especially if the church tries to do something internally or not, and giving advise to do something does not have threats that follow. This is why it is important to find a conclusion to these claims to know if it is fact or false, in addition to that, it also pertains to what I had said before of some people just not wanting to get involved and insisting the victim and or their parents to seek out police assistance, especially since most child abuse cases begin in the household, usually by the Father. For what is true is that the Father of the household are usually the ones to commit these acts, and if the man isn't a Father, he will have access to children if he is a member of a church, a school, a club, etc. I would say women also do this, but most cases it is done in schools whereas the pedophile is the teacher, for women committing these acts in a church or club is rather rare, but the sad thing is, they get off the hook easier than men, thus proving the justice system is not only having double standards on race, but of one's sex and background. As for the churches, should any of the like take place, some will call the police themselves, others will advise you to seek out the police.

2. If the JW church elders have said that, it would contradict what they speak on child abuse in their articles. This goes with my first answer, so these are claims and I have seen such claims a lot elsewhere. Because if they know that something like this is a problem, they wouldn't inform the other church elders to stay quite about it. They may have tried to handle things internally, but it would seem that they were either not clear with the elders and or not explaining things right; going with the final reports of ARC. As for choice, it would depend on the elder, especially one who is better equipped to handle the situation. An elder who knows how to give advise and to counsel in regards of something vs. one who doesn't have a clue of what to do, having pressure on himself. However I wouldn't say they do not care for members of the church, for if an elder and or the brothers of that church is willing to protect the church by being extra vigilante of those who come in, that tells you something. However when it comes to pedophilia and child abuse, it is a situation that not everyone is comfortable of having such a burden on their shoulders, especially if it is the first time they encounter such, knowing it is wrong, yes, but knowing how to handle it and try to do some effort is another thing.

I would say the JW church can keep its rules, since the ARC informs in its final reports of the witness rule, which people are wrongly speaking about, I take the ARC's word for what it is. What can be done is JW leaders can work on a way to train the elders in seeing signs of abuse, and be comfortable with dealing with the situation as well as helping the the victim. They may not really get involved when it comes to having police involvement, but they can be encouraged should any addition information is needed, the victim and or their family can hand over the number of a trained elder to give the police further details, and until the situation is handled, the church can address publicly of so-and-so who has committed child abuse, or they can simply say that, in a PG way that so-and-so is no longer a JW, excommunicated. All in all, I would say, train the elders, and be clear about the rules of the church.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I will add here, ( and this is what i find worrying ) that I had a case way back in 2009, when i reported an Elder to the Body of Elders of my congregation for something very serious and personal. Well, I say I reported it to the 'Body of Elders', and here is another problem, it seems my letter was only seen by two or three Elders and the rest of the Elders knew nothing about it. Anyway, I was called into the Kingdom Hall, to 'talk it through' with, what I thought would be the 'body of elders'. As it happened there were only two Elders present. One sat behind me and said nothing. The other Elder did all the talking and it was obvious from the outset that he had made his mind up about the matter before even listening to me. He did not even listen to my accusations against the Elder, it was easy to see that he was 'closing his ears to it all'. But what he did do was to say to me that I would be disfellowshipped if i did not retract everything i had said against that Elder. My response was simple, I told him, if he thought he had the authority to disfellowship me then he should go ahead and do it. I didn't wait for an answer, i got up and left the hall..... Needless to say nothing happened and i wasn't disfellowshipped. In fact i wasn't even reproved.

Sorry about what happen there. As with every church, there will always be that one strict elder and or pastor and said elder/pastors way of doing things and handling things for even in the church of God, some will tend to take their position with high regard in a not so good way. Seeing only 2-3 of them knew about your situation, they may have just themselves decided to handle it and or they are not a well so connected bunch at that JW church for it seems clear that only a small number of them knew out of the bunch, for well connected brothers tend to handle situations as a team, so to speak, but it seems that group of brothers were not as close and connected at all. I don't think he would be able to excommunicate you anyways because the other elders were not aware, they would raise question, maybe ask for the information that you handed in and or having you come in to hear what you had to say, which will put that elder who didn't give the answer to you in a bad spot, and that will make you the victor in that situation.

In all churches that practice excommunication, the action to excommunicate someone is to be address by all heads of that church, since the elder was not able to say anything, he must have knew that, for he can't take an action unless the other elders agree not only agree with him, but are aware of your complaint by the information you made present, so technically, he was avoiding shooting himself in the foot.

But yeah, not all JWs are lucky, for some JW churches actually have down to earth members and elders, some who are well connected with each other because of culture, an example I can give is a Swahili JW church, not only they share the same faith, they look out for each other as if they are blood relatives, well connected and not super strict. Because I am cool with the African community, I know a couple of JWs, one of which who didn't get excommunicated because of peer pressure to smoke, the only reason he remains is because over time one of the elders knew, and one of them actually helped him overcome the addiction. This was like back in 2013-2014, college/school, days. Sadly he does not live in America anymore, he is still a JW though, but the thing is about school, you don't have your friends living by you as the years go by.

Another situation of someone not being excommunicated was someone of my faith, someone close who had been dealing with issues regarding addiction and depression, he had since been cleared of this because the church leaders of the church were aware of this and I chipped in to help the person, as well as my Father, who is a helper at the church. But I can say for the others I know who have their own faith and or not that religious, one person I knew who took her own life because of the addiction.

But yes, some elders or pastors will always be strict, some will be strict because of rank and or position, but they will not really risk taking a decision unless the others are involved for they could well be risking their position. As for your case, the man had no power to do anything, pretty much a Shepherd gone rogue due to his position. Perhaps he has learned his lesson as did the other one who was present that time.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

But what i found out for myself was,  the Elders would only believe what they wanted to believe, and, not all Elders are informed about things taking place within their own congregation. Hence when I resigned from the Org, I sent out emails to as many of the Elders as I could. (We have a list of Elders and their phone numbers and email addresses). So I was sure that most of the Elders knew I had resigned.... 

We also have a list of names, numbers an emails, usually to contact the church members to see how they are doing, if they forgot something we let them know we will drop something off, provisions if someone needs, send information, etc. This is a common practice with majority of churches.

But yeah as I said before, each elder is different. Like a bag of skittles, you don't know what you are going to get the first time, or the second time, it isn't always the same,be it the situation position and or negative. As for that elder, the lesson is probably learnt that day. Also probably if you sent your information of the complaint via email, that would probably made your case stronger and probably avoiding that strict elder.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So I have a serious problem here. Do i return to the JW Org, which would mean being obedient to 'men' / Elders / Governing Body that i do not trust ?  Do I look for a different Org ? Or do i just 'go it alone' and try to serve God 'my own way'. If i went my own way would God help me if i prayed to him regularly? I honestly do not know what God wants from me, but i do know that serving God is of the utmost importance. God deserves to be served, He deserves praise and thanks, and as you have said, we should stand up for the truth and truthful teachings. 

I hope some of this makes sense. 

The choice you have is up to you. leaders of a church or of any organized religion are only acting as shepherds to the flock, as Jesus had said in the gospel of John, for one shepherd to a flock and one flock to a shepherd, elsewhere, he speaks of feeding the flock, the sheep. You would be lucky to find a JW church that is 100% connected like a family by its members and or family, for those who connect this strong is purely based on culture of the people, including those of who are part of that culture of whom they preach to. You would be surprised of people of another race or nation that only speak to those who really know their bible an example would be, if one were to question you on the Shal'iach principle of agency that was used by the Jews in the Old and New Testament.

Another thing is you have to be careful, there is no own way of serving God, for that is a mindset and action you do not want to fall into because that can easily led one astray from what is true be it you are a JW convert, a current one or a former (this goes for non JWs and or people of other faiths similar to them). I say this because a guy I learn from who goes by the name of Brother Kel, he isn't a fan of the Trinity, nor is he a fan of Jehovah's Witnesses, however, he tends to defend them a lot because people assuming their teachings are incorrect, even address that JWs are lucky because almost everything outside of the truth of what the bible says and those attempting to learn the bible their own way will result in a potential spiritual danger. I don't see why also claim that that church leaders of the JW faith are like gods, for the bible says there is a shepherd to a flock, and the shepherd's job is to maintain the flock. This includes helping, protecting, and giving the tools necessary for members of the church to use to better learn the bible. If you do not want to be a permanent member of the church, what you can do is probably just go every other day and sit in the back, and when it ends, you just leave, this is common with people of other churches, come in, listen, then leave, but again that is up to you, another thing you can do is with your bible, take time to do self bible study and since you are doing this alone, you have to be strict with yourself to learn scripture because there will a time you will be tested by means of biblical knowledge, in some cases, history of Christianity itself, knowing scripture enables you to be ready for what is ahead, as well as those who will attempt to challenge you, as a plus, you can attempt to learn a bit of Hebrew and or Greek, to make you stand out should you are in a position to either speak of the gospel and or should someone try to trick you by twisting scripture and or attempt to accuse you of not knowing the bible, not knowing that you are well-versed in scripture and Christian history. Since you are a former JW, what you learn as a JW will also be a plus.

In the end, God wants you and everyone else to do what is right, he will also want you to follow in the footsteps of his Son, and like him, you are to endure because there will be trial and error ahead, as well as help others to not lost faith and encourage them to keep on enduring. Praying should be done 24/7 and continue to thank God, continue to ask him to bless you and your family, as well as to look out for those who speak of him, pray for those being persecuted, as well as those who seek forgiveness, all in all, prayer to God makes you closer to him. For being one with God,  the Father will also dwell in you just as he dwells in Jesus.

So continue to do good in God's eyes, just as the Son did good in his eyes, as did the followers who speak and teach the truth.

 

Edit: Also if you want, I have access to ARC information, since the anti-jw out there are not cutting to the actual facts and not really saying of what is true Also if I find any more information on the other cases, I will include it here to, since it is still on going.

[JOHN BUTLER]

Thank you for all this information and encouragement. It is a great help to me. I do feel lost as if in a wasteland, a desert. I am also having moments of depression. I have anti-depressant tablets but try not to take them as they make me feel too tired and make my mind 'cloudy'.  I do pray very often and for many reasons, to thank God for His wonderful creation and for life itself, and for guidance, and to help me not to become bitter and angry. I pray for the help of His holy spirit, to be kind and gentle with others, and to try to get understanding from the scriptures. I also, as you have mentioned, pray for others and ask God to help those whom are truly searching for Him.... 

More information on the ARC and any other would be very welcomed, thank you. 

May God be with you and your family.