Use (application) of Mathew 18:15-17

[JOHN BUTLER]

@BillyTheKid46 If you are referring to me then please explain to me my 'ideology' as you seem to pretend to know me better than i know myself

Quote "Therefore, for people like John, if a person is caught watching child porn versus someone getting caught for child molestation, this activist wants the same judgment and punishment."

Do I ?  I think not actually. If a JW commits a crime then I want that JW punished for that crime. 

How the Elders deal with the sin is down to GB rules, but how the authority deals with the crime is down to the Laws of that Land. 

In my opinion if any JW is found to be doing anything wrong in connection with / relating to / involving children, then it should be made known to the whole congregation asap. And in fairness to / showing love of neighbour, it should be made known to the local community too. Obviously it would only be made known after there was sufficient proof. 

Remembering the 'Good Samaritan' story which Jesus told, it had it's meaning of course. But if it were a true happening then there would have been an investigation to find and punish the robbers.  Anyone knowing who the criminals were would surely have to tell those in authority. It would surely have been their Christian duty to protect their neighbours. 

Do you really think it is right to hide such criminals within any organisation ? 

So returning to your comment Billy 'watching child porn or child molestation', both need reporting to the authorities and if they are JW's then both need reporting to the Elders. 

As you or others have said, the Elders are there to deal with spiritual matters not criminal matters. So there is a need to report it also to outside authorities that have the authority from God to deal with criminal matters. 

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Yep, you got it. The same thing I said. Good for you. I believe we are beginning to understand each other. 😉

Understanding each other, to some level, yes. To explain my thoughts about WT list of sins and separation inside that list, and how that is not good, a little more.

For example: Shepherd book 2012

21. Deliberate, malicious lying; bearing false
witness: (Prov. 6:16, 19; Col. 3:9; Rev. 22:15; it-2
pp. 244-245) Though all lying is bad, judicial action
is taken only if there has been a practice of deliberate,
malicious lying. “Malicious” means deliberately
harmful, harboring ill will or enmity. Lying that justifies
judicial action involves more than just exaggerations
or petty, misleading statements of relatively
minor consequence or lying because of momentary
pressure or fear of man.—Matt. 26:69-75.

22. Generally, elders should not consider administering
discipline if a Christian charges another Christian
with making false statements in a court dispute.
For example, this may involve divorce, child custody
and support, and so forth. The Christian making the
charge can express his concerns to the court that has
the responsibility to determine what is truthful when
rendering a judgment.

Bible verses used in Elders book:

16 here are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17  haughty eyes, a lying tongue,  hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil 19    false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

9 Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 

15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

In this and other WT Instructions about that how JW member are NOT ALWAYS OBLIGATED to TELL THE TRUTH, in other words how LIES are GOOD sometimes and not needed to be Judicially Processed is 100% opposite of what God has said in Bible. 

As I can remember what was written in Bible in other places too, God has never said (or gave that impression) how,  for certain lies there is a license, and that for some other lies there is a punishment. 

WT Elders by this given rule, as new moral principle, have free hand to establish illusory justice, illusory truth based on perverted idea how lie is truth and truth is lie. Isaiah spoke about that also.Woe to those who call evil good and good evil who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet  and sweet for bitter.

When JW Church leaders are ready to justify lies and not want to take disciplinary measures against liar than they are in opposition to God and to His words in Proverbs. Words they put in print in WTJWORG publications to explain how lie is not always a lie. Terrible!

[JOHN BUTLER]

13 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I’m not talking about you. I’m using you as an example. There’s a difference. I have no reason to speak to people like you. I don’t personally know you, nor would I ever want to. I know your kind, that uses bitterness and hate, to justify their actions. I don’t hate you as a person, but I do hate the “action” you have taken. Read scripture correctly to find what Jesus words mean to refer to the latter.

In the same respect, Srecko agreement of your comment proves what I told him earlier about being like Pharaoh. It doesn’t take a genius to see a person for what they really are.

Unfortunately, Srecko has become a “puppet” to the whims of others and mimics the disdain of the Watchtower just to go along with the crowd. What does scripture say about that? What does scripture say about pushing away people from worshipping the one true God and his commandments? It’s sad really to see when people, instant message him to make a controversial point that has no standing with the proof given.

 

Oh dear Kid, you talk as if you are better than me. In fact you twist truth and call me names because you know I speak truth.

You live in a dream world just worshipping the GB and It's Org. Hero worship and idol worship rolled into one. you think God approves of that ? 

As for Srecko, i think he may have been on this forum before I ever joined it. I do know that he has his own mind and his own words and is not a puppet for anyone, that can be clearly seen in his input. 

But maybe you are that Alen person others talk of, maybe you were removed before and have returned with a silly cowboy name. 

Could be that you are sly just like those men you worship. 

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

the misunderstanding you have about the Shepard book.

 Once again The Shepherd book quote: 

Lying that justifies
judicial action involves more than just exaggerations
or petty, misleading statements of relatively
minor consequence or lying because of momentary
pressure or fear of man.

Is it lying lying when you give misleading statement?

Intentionally or not intentionally? No matter are consequence is minor on not minor?

With 3 elements WT and you darkening and fogging  issue: Again, Is lying sin or not?  

Elements in the book are: 1) deliberately and malicious lying 2) minor consequences of lie 3) lying to worldly people

Shepherd book instructing elders that if JW member deliberately lying to Court about something (especially connected to other JW member) is not lie at all. So, if they give you free hand to lie about your Brother in Secular Court how would be if you would lying about some "worldly" people in the Court? That would be not so bad and of no concern??

According to some WTJWORG interpretations if you tell lie to "secular" people about organization and brotherhood, and did that deliberately, it is not lie?!

 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Then you would be able to understand the difference between deliberate lying and unintentional lying.

Oh Billy, I understand the difference. But we are not making issue of Motives here. We have disagreement is it lie A Lie in all circumstances and space and time, or is it permissible to talking lies because someone thinking how he has  "justification" to tell the lie.  

18 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If I told you the traffic light is green when the light was red, and you come to a screeching halt or worse get into an accident. How, should this unintentional lie be handled

First of all, here you talking about colors. Your perception of traffic lights and wrong vision can be reason to talking wrongly to others. If that is not the case, than we can start to discuss about your motives about why you told me fault fact about color of traffic light. Anyway, with no interest to enter into your motives now, dry fact loudly saying to all of us - You told lie (or more politely wording: you have been in wrong) when you spoke about traffic light color. As result, I don't respect you in this color issue.

People hate lies. God hate lies. But  we still lying?! :))

 

The Bible’s Viewpoint - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102000087

Lying—Is It Ever Justified?

“A LITTLE INACCURACY SOMETIMES SAVES TONS OF EXPLANATION.”

THIS comment illustrates how many people feel about lying. Their rationale is that lying is not wrong if it does not harm anyone. Such reasoning even has an academic name—situation ethics, which says that the only law you need to follow is the so-called law of love. In other words, explains author Diane Komp, “if your motivation is right and your heart is right (then the) fact that you lied . . . is no big deal.”

Such a viewpoint is common in today’s world.

This part in article for Public said how lie is a lie and how Situation Ethics is worldly viewpoint, not God's. But still, Secret Elder's Instruction Manual told different- if lie is not intentional and not made big problems, you are not in problem. If lie is intentional but said in Court that is also not big deal.

I am blind, but you acting worst when agree with statement and promote idea how lie is not lie if is justified by Elders Ethics based on WTJWORG Manual.  

 

[Space Merchant]

@Srecko Sostar Your next problem is the fact that such practices is drawn from the Bible itself. How can you correlate such with what you have said here? For I believe last time you confused yourself without anyone stating a word.