Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood

[TrueTomHarley]

18 minutes ago, AlanF said:

By faith one can believe that the moon is made of cheddar cheese. One can believe that the earth is shaped like a pizza pie.

For once, I will help 4Jah. I’ve turned over a new leaf.

Think Frank Sinatra: “When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie...”

[Ann O'Maly]

33 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Because without them we cannot know the true meaning of scripture.

So your argument appears to be: we can only know the Bible is true or its true meaning when other people - the 'right' people - tell us it is true and explain the meaning to us. Is that correct?

37 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And as for believing 'scientists', they are only men and women. They get paid for results. And he who pays the piper calls the tune.

I see. Are you saying the 'true anointed remnant' are not men and women, and they have no tune to call?

[Arauna]

 Faith according to hebrews 11:1  "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."    The evidence of realities  is not just seen in the complexity and synergistic designs in the physical creation , but very well noted in the main theme of the bible which "purpose" has slowly  been taking shape throughout the ages.  To restore mankind back to God. Many steps of this plan has been fulfilled but the final 1000 years is a reality still hoped for.  If all other parts of the plan came true (i.e. such as the timely arrival of christ) then the final part of the purpose is assured.

There is no way that people who did not know each other and lived hundreds of years apart could write about " one theme" throughout the bible  without some help.  The main theme is logical, consistent, coherent, and has continuity.  I.e  continuity...... : David was born in Bethlehem and Jesus was born in Bethlehem.... in the Davidic line (genealogy), abraham went on mount moriah to sacrifice isaac and a 1000 years later this same spot was purchased and the temple was built by solomon. 

The main theme is about human rulership.... that it is always oppressive and imperfect.... Adam chose independence from the sovreignty of God by using his gift of free will in a selfish way.  Human rulership is therefore predicted  to be a miserable failure because most people make up their own morality "good and bad" as they go along.  Humankind broke their relationship with God. 

God immediately made arrangements to restore his purpose but only after he has given humans a chance to rule themselves..... which will end badly. God will have to step into humankind's affairs to save them from themselves.  He will have proven beyond reasonable doubt  that humans cannot rule themselves successfully without Him.

Jehovah will eventually only use  those persons who willingly choose to be under His direct rulership and willing to obey his self-sacrificing moral standards..as taught by Jesus, the christ.   Successful rulership can only be just and righteous when all humans are equal under god and God ( who can read hearts ) will administer perfect and equal justice.  Humans are always imperfect and are bias...... even if they bring in one set of moral laws - they will still fail because "human rules over another to his detriment"..... for example: USA are supposed to have equality because it has laws in place..... but if it is not equally enforced ....... then there is no equality. UN will being in one set of morals and it will fail ! 

Miracles are also interesting.  Can one accept a miracle as a reality when it advances a specific plan and was predicted ahead of time?   

The trillions of miracles in evolution has no plan, happen by random chance and does not have a stipulated purpose or a final outcome predicted...... just random events.  Even the " intelligent information " sprang into complex patterns " and has no explanation except that it is chance. Trillions x trillions of miracles with no purpose.

The bible on the other hand has steps which lead to a final outcome which has been predicted.  Each step was predicted and fulfilled exactly on time  and also exactly as predicted.

Biblical Faith is not blind........ evolutionary faith is blind because there is no proper fossil record and there is no outcome or purpose. 

Biblical faith has historic "evidence" that many of steps in the plan has already happened ...... so we have an assured expectation that the final outcome will also be as predicted. 

 

[Arauna]

43 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Genesis book speak about "Day" in which

Jehovah speaks of all the creation days as "a day" ..... so it is clear it is not a 24-hour day but an epoch.

[AlanF]

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

 Faith according to hebrews 11:1  "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."    The evidence of realities  is not just seen in the complexity and synergistic designs in the physical creation , but very well noted in the main theme of the bible which "purpose" has slowly  been taking shape throughout the ages.  To restore mankind back to God. Many steps of this plan has been seen but the final 1000 years is a reality still hoped for.  If all other parts of the plan came true (such as the timely arrival of christ) then the final part of the purpose is assured.

There is no way that people who did not know each other and lived hundreds of years apart could write about " one theme" throughout the bible  without some help.  The main theme is logical, consistent, coherent, and has continuity.  I.e  continuity...... David was born in Bethlehem and Jesus was born in Bethlehem.... in the Davidic line (genealogy), abraham went on mount moriah to sacrifice isaac and a 1000 years later this same spot was purchased and the temple was built by solomon. 

The main theme is about human rulership.... that it is always oppressive and imperfect.... Adam chose independence from the sovreignty of God by using his gift of free will in a selfish way.  Human rulership is therefore predicted  to be a miserable failure because most people make up their own morality "good and bad" as they go along.  Humankind broke their relationship with God. 

God immediately made arrangements to restore his purpose but only after he has given humans a chance to rule themselves..... which will end badly. God will have to step into humankind's affairs to save them from themselves.  He will prove beyond reasonable doubt  that humans cannot rule themselves.

Jehovah will eventually only use  those persons who willingly choose to be under His direct rulership and willing to obey his self-sacrificing moral standards..as taught by Jesus, the christ.   Successful rulership can only be just and righteous when all humans are equal under god and God ( who can read hearts ) will administer perfect and equal justice.  Humans are always imperfect and are bias...... even if they bring in one set of moral laws - they will still fail because "human rules over another to his detriment"..... for example: USA are supposed to have equality because it has laws in place..... but if it is not equally enforced ....... then there is no equality. UN will being in one set of morals and it will fail ! 

Miracles are also interesting.  Can one accept a miracle as a reality when it advances a specific plan and was predicted ahead of time?   

The trillions of miracles in evolution has no plan, happen by random chance and does not have a stipulated purpose or a final outcome predicted...... just random events.  Even the " intelligent information " sprang into complex patterns " and has no explanation except that it is chance. 

The bible on the other hand has steps which lead to a final outcome which has been predicted.  Each step was predicted and fulfilled exactly on time  and also exactly as predicted.

Biblical Faith is not blind........ evolutionary faith is blind because there is no proper fossil record and there is no outcome or purpose. 

Biblical faith has historic "evidence" that many of steps in the plan has already happened ...... so we have an assured expectation that the final outcome will also be as predicted. 

 

Yes, the moon is indeed made of cheddar cheese.

The fact is that not a single supposed miracle can be proved to have happened. Not a single predicted event has taken place in the manner clearly predicted. The order of creative events stated in Genesis is demonstrably wrong. Etc. etc. etc.

What is "assured expectation"? Assured by who and what? Words written in a set of books that so clearly contradict reality on so many levels?

For JWs, the total failure of everything predicted and claimed for "the generation of 1914" ought to be a wakeup call. But as Carl Sagan said, religions are tough. After such complete failures they do a reset and reinvent or reinterpret dogmas. But eventually the piper gets paid, as has happened with Harold Camping and so many others.

[AlanF]

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah speaks of all the creation days as "a day" ..... so it is clear it is not a 24-hour day but an epoch.

And according to you, an epoch is 7,000 years long.

[TrueTomHarley]

26 minutes ago, AlanF said:

But as Carl Sagan said [1995]:

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children’s or grandchildren’s time — when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and whats true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), the lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.”

[Srecko Sostar]

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah speaks of all the creation days as "a day" ..... so it is clear it is not a 24-hour day but an epoch.

Translators translated words they found in copies of Scriptures. Did Moses wrote Hebrew word that we have today translated in Bible as - "day"? And did the word he wrote signify what people today think it meant? 

How did Moses understand the inspiration, which told him to write the word “day” or a word that signifies what is not (which need not be understood) a day of 24 hours, but it is 7000 years or some other longer period of time? Should he have been interested in how long the "day" lasted? Did Moses anywhere in his writings gave specific idea how to understand "Creative day" duration? Did he understand or try to understand, did he care, about how long "day" lasted?  Did he (or some other biblical writer) indicate that the duration of the "creative days" should be counted and associated with any prophecy? Or to link them to any interpretation like those that WTJWorg link to 1914 or 1975?

[Arauna]

30 minutes ago, AlanF said:

fact is that not a single supposed miracle can be proved to have

Not one of the miracles in evolution have been proven...... no fossils to prove the interim stages... why?   Because complex life exploded on the world scene (each specie fully developed) in one layer of the earth...... called the Cambrian explosion. 

At least the Talmud writes scathingly of Jesus - so we know he czme to earth. ..... part of a prophecy and part of the plan to redeem mankind.  Many artifacts exist from the period of the israelite kings .I.e. a seal from the "house of David."  Hezekias tunnel, pool of Siloam...... the kings really existed...  Etc.  Israel is a "living history" .... they have been celebrating passover for 3500 years and the saving of Israel during time of queen ester for 2500 years.  I can go on and on. 

[AlanF]

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children’s or grandchildren’s time — when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and whats true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), the lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.”

Your point?

Remember that much of this decline gathered a great deal of steam when Ronald Reagan got into power.

[AlanF]

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Not one of the miracles in evolution have been proven......

Evolution requires no miracles -- only well established science.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

no fossils to prove the interim stages...

Nonsense. Many books proving that all manner of intermediate forms existed have been written. A particularly good one is Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters by Donald Prothero.

The fact that you refuse to read science books is beside the point.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

why?   Because complex life exploded on the world scene (each specie fully developed) in one layer of the earth...... called the Cambrian explosion. 

I've already disproved your lie half a dozen times in this thread alone.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

At least the Talmud writes scathingly of Jesus - so we know he czme to earth. ..... part of a prophecy and part of the plan to redeem mankind.  Many artifacts exist from the period of the israelite kings .I.e. a seal from the "house of David."  Hezekias tunnel, pool of Siloam...... the kings really existed...  Etc.  Israel is a "living history" .... they have been celebrating passover for 3500 years and the saving of Israel during time of queen ester for 2500 years.  I can go on and on. 

Still no proof of miracles. Still no arguments about why Genesis is inspired when it has many physical claims wrong.

[Arauna]

1 minute ago, AlanF said:

decline gathered a great deal of steam

When the usury system was introduced in 1913. When the FED became a private institution and all American taxes went to private bankers.  WW1 AND WW2 and many other wars and coup de Tats were orchestrated by our govt. to get control of wealth and get all countries on a usuary system.

Soon we will be taken over by those 1% wealthiest  who own the wealth and global corporations in the world. Small banks will disappear and everyone will be dependent upon the central bank in their country..... tied to the international bank of settlements, UN banks and central banks.