No! Please!! Not another thread about 1914!!!

[bruceq]

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

bruceg:

You should appreciate that SOME people go into sewers to find out what is going on.

For about 5 years I used to design sewers, and sewage treatment plants .. and have walked in flowing sewers with turds and waste of all kinds floating past my feet.  I have broken up obstructions, and repaired walls and ceilings where roots and breaks occurred.

Unless you take a crap and pee in a bucket, and bury it in your yard you should APPRECIATE Sanitary Engineers who, as a classic example, raised the entire City of Chicago so the gravity sewers would stop making the City a place of pestilence and disease.

Sanitary Engineers have saved MORE LIVES than all the doctors of the 20th Century ... AND infinitely more than Theologians ...   BECAUSE they were willing to pop a manhole, and go down that ladder into the stinking steaming sewer below.

The same is true for those who insist on TRUTH ... no matter whose "ox gets gored".

For those that disparage people who are willing to walk in the crap, and elevate those who ignore that it is there, and TELL YOU not to look at it  ... both their sewers AND their Theology will be full of crap, and it will back up ... AND KILL THEM.

.

 

You are not approved to give any interpretation or guidance to anyone. Sorry.

Also someone does not need to quote from an apostate to promote the teachings of Christendom - which is apostate !!!

"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

This is not a worldly philosophy it is from God's Word !!! 

"You are no part of the world" Jn 17

I am sure some others will come along to defend the apostate ideas that go against Jehovah's Witnesses in regards to 1914. But ask yourself what religion are we suppose to go to if JW are wrong? Just figure it out by ourselves perhaps? We have 30,000 religions which one has the truth on 1914?  Or perhaps like Korah and the 250 rebels who said "they" were God's loyal people and wanted to "reform" His people. We all know what happened to them and who really Jehovah considers loyal. And that is why I am leaving since being here is not LOYAL as has been stated! {Read entire book of Numbers and Jude}.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

4 minutes ago, bruceq said:

You are not approved to give any interpretation or guidance to anyone. Sorry.

Few things in this world really frighten me ... but THAT philosophy is one of them.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

I have had the same experiences as insider but I do not brag about it.Or look haughty by answering people with pages and pages of junk that most just don't have the time to read anyway.  I agree none of us here are really loyal since we are here. Roving about is fine if it is ones foray but some have flagrantly been disloyal by promoting from apostate websites.

 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have also come to regard him, I hope not incorrectly, as a provider of accurate information, within the limits of human perception. When he writes about 'out there' topics, he does not do what apostates do: throw as much dirt out there as they can, uncritically, hoping that as much of it as possible will stick.

His sympathies lie with the home team. He does not want to send them back to the showers.

I usually avoid trying to explain myself in any detail, but with this specific confluence of comments, I'll take that risk. I've said several of these things before, but this time I'll do it without scriptures, so that no one need take it too seriously.

• First, I believe that we all have a Christian duty to test, prove, make sure, and question. Some don't believe that, and that's just fine, too -- for them.
• Second, as you might imagine, I am not really anonymous to everyone, after giving away enough of my history, experiences, background, family history, age, year of marriage, year of baptism, past locations, current location. So I would agree that much of this is a lot like writing a long drawn-out letter to the Society. I have already talked openly (on this subject) to a few current members of the Writing Dept, which includes two of the current GB Helpers. These are brothers I have known long enough to feel "safe." I have also put some of my questions in writing, but I do admit that these have also been effectively anonymous. I am a coward! I no longer have any direct contact with any GB members. I have talked to Brother Lett longer than any of the others, but that was in his most recent assignment before being asked to join the GB. If this is considered bragging, I don't consider it so, but it's only right that I present enough of my background, my biases, and my reasons.
• Third, I chose this forum because the number of participants is low, especially the number who will engage in doctrinal discussions. I do not choose to have such open discussions with anyone in our congregation, or any other congregation. My wife, parents, a former Bethel roommate, a current Bethelite, and an uncle who is a circuit overseer, are the only regular exceptions. This is because if someone reacted in an immature way to something I said, or I was misquoted or misunderstood, then unnecessary problems could arise. On a forum, I can try to choose my words more carefully, edit when I go too far, etc. But more than that, a forum gives everyone deniability in the sense that no one has to accept that I'm telling the truth. Some who have studied and questioned the same issues will recognize that I am trying to tell the truth, but if someone else here does not wish to deal with the same questions then they can (and will) simply dismiss me as a crack-pot or apostate or haughty braggart. That's actually the beauty of a forum. I don't have to feel that I am presenting anything to anyone who doesn't want to hear it. A forum provides this "utility" by default, because there will always be someone with the views of bruceq, or AllenSmith, coming to the rescue to provide what they feel is a proper warning to others. Just in case that's not enough, I always try to utilize a fairly direct presentation style and a much-too-long-and-wordy style that will also provide a turn-off to those who don't want to deal with it, and will act as a kind of filter to make sure that those who wish to follow really do wish to follow.
• Fourth, on the issue of apostate (ex-JW) websites or books. I don't go to or refer anyone to apostate websites. I don't quote from ex-JW websites. I own 5 of the books people consider to be highly apostate, but all of these books are also books that the Society also owns. Also, the 5th of these books, was recommended by Brother Harry Peloyam while on the phone to the Society to get an answer to a question I had on the Hitler/Rutherford letter. He literally recommended M. James Penton's book on Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich. I have two books by Raymond Franz, one by Carl Olof Jonsson (which I purchased in the midst of a discussion with Rolf Furuli), and two books by M. James Penton. I also bought two books by B. W. Schulz, although I have never checked to see if any of the writers/researchers are ex-JWs or apostates, yet. The Society's Writing Department, while I was there, kept at least one copy of most of the apostate books in a separate cabinet from the main libraries. After I left Bethel, I'm told by someone who has used them, that they purchased at least two copies of all these same books I just mentioned for the "apostate cabinet." In any particular topic, I have waited for someone else (e.g., Allen Smith) to begin quoting books by Raymond Franz (or, if necessary, Carl O. Jonsson) before quoting from them myself. From what I remember, there has been no quoting from apostate books or sites by anyone on this particular topic.
• Fifth, I have already admitted that I handled research assignments for both the Art Dept while working there for 4 years, and simultaneously handled research assignments for Brother Schroeder for just about three full years at Bethel and 2 more years after leaving. This involved a lot of reading of both the older and the newer publications and even proofreading some materials that came from the Teaching Committee. It's not like I was in the Writing Department, but I was in the Bethel and Gilead libraries almost daily and sometimes even in Brooklyn and Manhattan libraries at times. This did put me in contact with many members of the Writing Dept and several became life-long friends. And, yes, I grew to dislike a couple of them, too.
• Sixth, I'm a firm believer in transparency. I think that so many things would be much easier to understand and we would be seen as much more honest if we just stated what we know, without trying to hide anything. I think that in these days of search tools and databases that nothing remains hidden anyway. So we might as well get out in front of some of the issues that we wish would just go away. I think there is nothing wrong with showing the human side of people we have worked with, and admitting our own foibles, too. Knowing that Jehovah has worked with imperfect people and still accomplished so much is not anything to be ashamed of, just as it wasn't something that the Bible tries to hide from us when discussing various Bible characters.
• Seventh, Anna actually noticed the very point that triggered this particular conversation. I have had similar conversations here before, but never put all the potential related items out there to deal with at the same time. In fact, I've argued against doing this in the recent past. I think that it's easier to get through items of dirty laundry, or embarrassing episodes, or problematic doctrinal proof-texts, if we deal with them one at a time. But in this case, I put out several issues related to 1914 all at once. That's because the video about 1975 that has been brought up really does refer to putting the scriptures ahead of current teachings when something doesn't seem right. In this case, what doesn't seem right (to me) is the fact that every single feature of the 1914 doctrine is "problematic" in some way from a scriptural point of view. It actually seems surmountable when we deal with just one at a time, so that wouldn't have made the point as well about what "seems" wrong.

Well, enough for now . . .

 

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Since the true religion would be preaching the "good news of the kingdom in ALL the earth"  I GOOGLED "God's Kingdom" to see who is fulfilling that prophecy. Answer JW.ORG. Then I looked under "Last Days", "Prophecy", Armageddon" and of course "Ransom Sacrifice"? Same result!  Then after that I searched under :"God's Name", "Who go to heaven", "What happens when you die", "Why does God allow suffering" and so forth...JW.ORG came up FIRST in all these searches which is impossible because even to get on the first page of google's search is extremely unlikely given there are OVER a BILLION websites out there but to be NUMBER ONE at the top of the page on ALL of these searches?

Hm. You do realize that Google remembers your computer's search history, your likes and interests, don't you? Therefore, if you are a frequent visitor to jw.org, Google will bias your searches toward the sites you've shown past interest in.

When I opened a Chrome incognito window and searched "the kingdom of God," my first result was a wikipedia article, my second was the gotquestions site, third was the lifehopeandtruth site, and JW.org came fourth.

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, bruceq said:

You have also quoted and shown cartoons from apostate websites as Truetom  pointed out some time ago to me

Actually, those sites are all jealous of him, for his collection far surpasses their own for numbers and quality. The secret is to water and fertilize them each day. Don't hold back on the cow manure.

I actually do not recall pointing it out. If I did, then it is 'silly me,' for it is a little like pointing out that bears live in the woods.

[TrueTomHarley]

7 hours ago, bruceq said:

by answering people with pages and pages of junk that most just don't have the time to read anyway.

Since that is the case, it probably is less of an issue than you suppose. He makes the same point himself in his ever-so-lengthy rebuttal - so lengthy that I nodded off before I got to it.

Does JWI need an apologist? He has not asked for one. Nevertheless, perhaps I am like him in a few regards. Perhaps I am more like him than he himself is.

1.) I am a good writer, if one is not fussy.

2.) I can explain Jehovah's Witnesses inside and out - at least the portions of it that interest me. Not all do, such as things that happened in Russell's time. Who cares? These days complete villains makeover their image in decades

3.) I am not good at anything else.

Therefore, if I choose to offer my 'gift,'  it is going to be writing about the faith I know so well. I can and do write about other things, but the dialogue ultimately comes around to the same thing: 'it's all screwed up because we 'need the kingdom.''

Now, if my gift is anything other than writing, I can offer it to my heart's content, and receive nothing but praise for it. But if I write about the thing that most interests me, I am subject to misinterpretation by some on my own team who think that is wrong. Of course, i could write about how we know there is no hell-fire or trinity, but that gets old and you find yourself talking to the most stubborn people on the planet. So I write about topics of the day. Alas, we have some people who misinterpret mere knowledge of political things as 'taking a side.'

Perhaps JWI has felt some of that frustration. If he has not, I have.

I have not read Franz' book, the same as I have not read ARC report material gift-wrapped for me by those who hate us. I am not opposed to reading the report itself, and I no doubt will, as such material is included in the new book. As to Franz' book, there hardly seems a point to my reading it, since everyone else sums it up for me. However, it's hard for me to find fault with him for writing it - whatever he goes on to say is another thing. He leaves Bethel as he is getting on in years. it is a 'vow of poverty' place; he does not leave with a 401K. What is he to do? Work at Mickey D's?

[Anna]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I actually do not recall pointing it out. If I did, then it is 'silly me,'

Actually I think it's me that pointed it out....so silly me

[TrueTomHarley]

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Just think, when we are all (hopefully) sitting at dinner in the new world, and someone mentions 1914, or 1975, or the overlapping generation

For whatever it is worth, when I think of it, which is not often, I imagine I will die in this system. Of course, I am 'up there,' but not absurdly up there. And when world conditions seem too outrageous, I imagine the end could come sooner. But for the most part, I don't think of it, instead preferring verses that assure us that Jehovah will pull us through perilous time.

I don't spin my lack of interest in dates into a virtue. Perhaps it indicates dullness. But it strikes me as reading a bus schedule that some try to worry out every detail. When the bus comes, it comes. If I have been behaving, I should be okay.

38 minutes ago, Anna said:

I mean JTR, flattering speech?

He's not tripping ME up with his flattering speech, let me tell you that.

[Anna]

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He's not tripping ME up with his flattering speech, let me tell you that.

[Anna]

 

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Please quote ANYTHING I have ever stated that is NOT TRUE.  

PICK ONE ... and challenge me.

Samuel Herd's supposed $20K Rolex. (sorry Librarian, off topic)

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But it strikes me as reading a bus schedule that some try to worry out every detail. When the bus comes, it comes. If I have been behaving, I should be okay.

I really like this.

When I used to use buses to get home at night as a teenager, there were no electronic schedule indicators. Just a printed sheet on the stop, if it had not been vandalised. It was notoriously difficult to figure out the schedule. The print was too small, the light too dim, the mind too clouded, the need to relieve nature too pressing. And the schedule always contained exceptions to scheduling for late hours and weekends in even tinier print, indicated by impossibly small asterisks and the like. And if the bus number was different for the out-of-hours service.......! It was so easy to misinterpret and a frustrating excercise. But what a relief it was when a bus actually came! On time, as far as the driver was concerned. The schedule? No longer of any real interest. Maybe I'd check on the bus to see where I had got it wrong. So easy in retrospect. The important thing? I was at the stop to get the bus when it came.

I think there's an illustration in there somewhere. I'll have to figure it out when I get time...........maybe something about the driver choosing the passengers....................Hmmm....

[Evacuated]

13 hours ago, bruceq said:

Well since I am no longer wanted and this place is infested with apostates as my final act as terminator:

Hey @bruceq, I hope you're not ducking out here? You bring some useful information to the table when you are not engaging in an emotional exchange!

Without pointing any fingers unnecessarily at others, you are acting unwisely if you engage with ones you consider to be apostates. Not just because it's a prohibited excercise (2John 9-11). Apostates are indicted by Jehovah because they have  "disheartened the righteous one" and "have strengthened the hands of the wicked one" (Ez.13:22). Do not loose the force of Jesus illustration of the "ravenous woves" (Matt.7:15). You cannot fight them on a level playing field. They will literally have you for breakfast! You will come out dis-heartened!

And even if your judgement of some is too harsh (by my estimate), they may still not play by rules of etiquette you hold dear. You are in great danger of 'answering...according to their foolishness' (Pro.26:4), with harm to your own peace of mind.

But, despite the acknowledged dangers of an internet forum, which can indeed be a bit like playing soccer blindfolded at times, you do have some control.

There is an option to ignore users that you can turn on, to avoid those excercises known as "flaming" that you sometimes appear to get caught in.

Perhaps @Librarian could provide an instruction on how to turn this facility "on", as the recent platform migration appears to have switched it "off".