The book "Seola" aka "Angels and Women", mummies, and a plethora of other curiosities from the 1800's onward

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

How is that different when using Russell's words to make a claim that ultimately wasn't Russell's ideology, and inadvertently pretend it was. It would be NO different than calling Russell an Adventist, just because some of his friends from other denominations contributed articles to the tower.

That's a good and thoughtful question in my opinion. You are right; it's not much different at all. It's easy to make a mistake in looking back over thousands of pages of material that is not all 100% consistent. Even though I never said that Russell was a universalist, it's good that you pointed out this might have been easily misunderstood.

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

It would be NO different than calling Russell an Adventist, just because some of his friends from other denominations contributed articles to the tower.

This is also correct. Just because Russell was very interested in the Adventist chronology among other ideas, did NOT make him Adventist. This is why I would also not call him an Adventists, even if several of his beliefs were much closer to Adventism than most other religions of his time.

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Are we to understand, people here need to "see" a disclaimer in order to understand the concept of endorsement?

It's probably an important factor to see what he actually said he believed without so much concern over whether he felt it put him under a certain label or category. It's also possible to "protest too much" that a person does (or does not) belong in a certain category.

[JW Insider]

I still think the timeline is informative in helping us decide just why this book was promoted in this fashion by the Watch Tower Society. We discussed the initial announcment in the The Golden Age, July 30, 1924 p. 702. For some reason this announcement said nothing about what made the book so important or just how it could help them ward off spiritism. This was the second major book that Woodworth promoted, and both of them tried to play off their close association with Charles T Russell for sales. (Finished Mystery and Angels & Women).

But the actual author of the book Seola was never mentioned. Neither was the reviser named, only that it was a close friend of Russell revising a book that Russell had recommended to his friends. According to Brother Herd, Russell endorsed the book and had written the foreward in the book. Russell did NOT write the foreword in the book, and we only learn second or third hand that Russell had endorsed the book. We know of nothing of the book from Russell himself, or even from Russell's lifetime.

In promoting the book through Watch Tower publications, they never mentioned that the original author was a woman, or that they believed she was acting as a spirit medium. Imagine how surprised you would be if you ordered 2 cartons of these books so that everyone in your congregation (a.k.a., "company") could get this new wonderful information about avoiding spiritism. You open up the book and are anxious to get a glimpse of just how "the faithful and discreet slave" had, in effect, posthumously (again!) provided spiritual food to the household of faith. (Russell was still the "faithful and discreet slave" at this point. Woodworth had proposed a new explanation of a parable that would have made Rutherford the fulfillment of a "steward" from a different parable, but it didn't really "stick" yet.)

So you open up the book "Angels and Women" and you anxiously read the foreword:

• "dictated to the woman who wrote by one of the fallen angels who desired to return to divine favor" -- Angels and Women, page 5.

In other words, it was dictated by a demon, and endorsed just because the Society held the view that some of the demons were honest and wanted to repent. You'd probably be thinking, "It's no wonder they left this part out of the advertisement." And that's no doubt what must have happened. They got letters. The Watch Tower publications didn't mention it again until December 3, 1924, after as much as 6 months of sales.

In the December 3, 1924 Golden Age they went ahead and printed just one letter of concern, and one enthusiastic letter of support, and then defended their continued endorsement of the book. Note how the concerns are cleverly downplayed:

Angels and Women

WE PRESENT some letters regarding this book (a review of which recently appeared in our columns) which we feel sure will be of interest to our readers:

TO THE GOLDEN AGE:

Pardon me for taking this much of your time on what may be so simple a matter; but I was approached about going into a club to get a certain book called, "Angels and Women". I made some inquiries, and was told that it was a book that a fallen angel dictated to a women, showing a desire to come back into harmony with God; and that Pastor Russell approved of the book. I had never heard of the book before; and as we are to shun anything akin to spiritism I should like to know positively whether the book has your approval before buying one; so if it is not asking to much would like a reply.

(Mrs.) W. S. Davis, Los Angeles, Cal.

Notice how she (Davis) is not complaining about buying the book under false pretenses, only that she has somehow learned "that it was a book that a fallen angel dictated to a woman" and that this doesn't sound like the right way to shun spiritism. So she'll still buy the book as long as they can assure her that it really had the approval of Pastor Russell and whether it really has the current approval of The Golden Age, in spite of these facts.

Then, of course, they follow this up with a glowing, enthusiastic letter of appreciation.

Anyone who has worked in marketing (I have) knows exactly why it had to be done this way. It's always a matter of handling objections in such a way that you can still produce an action on the part of the buyer. It says:  "You might have heard that this book is not really a book that helps you avoid spiritism, but that it's actually a book that is the product of spiritism. Perhaps this had made you wary about buying the book. Well guess what? You can rest assured that Pastor Russell himself really did endorse this book and the Watch Tower Society still endorses this book. So what are you waiting for? Have no fear! Buy this book today!"

I'll get to the positive letter in the next post.

[JW Insider]

In the timeline, the initial announcement and promotion in July 1924, was covered,  and now have begun to discuss the response to the book starting in the December 3, 1924 issue of Golden Age. Next is the positive response. (Again don't miss the signs of marketing within the letter itself.)

 

Angels and Women . . .

TO THE GOLDEN AGE:

With much pleasure and profit has the book, "Angels and Women" been read by Truth friends. It contains much to encourage one to loyalty and faith in God.

Do you think that it would be a real service to purchase these books in quantities of ten or more copies at a time so as to get the special $1 per copy rate that you have so kindly secured for us, and thus to have them on hand as Christmas and birthday presents or for other gift occasions to give to our relatives and friends, whom we have been unable to otherwise interest in Present Truth or only slightly so?

Would not some be disposed to read a fascinating novel of this kind, who might not be able to get first interested in "The Harp" or STUDIES?

Would this not be considered one way of instructing the people about matters concerning which there is so much ignorance, and direct them to the real Bible keys, the WATCH TOWER publications?

Should we send such orders to THE GOLDEN AGE?

If not, will you kindly give us the complete address of the A. B. Abac Company? There are many who would like to get a little more information regarding these items.

An Appreciative Reader

The first sentence by one appreciative reader somehow speaks for how much pleasure and profit this book has provided to "Truth friends." It's about loyalty and faith in God.

But notice that the second paragraph, highlighted in red above, looks completely like a common marketing ploy. It's merely a rewording and reminder of the original advertisement. And a new reminder that this would make a great Christmas gift, just in time. It's partly rhetorical in that there is no such thing as No for an answer. It's just like those radio ads or cheap TV ads where two persons converse:

• Mary: Can you give me some advice John? I have Problem X (x=hair loss, loose gums, 12 toes, etc)
• John: You are in luck, Mary. There is a wonderful new product that takes care of "Problem X" -- perfect for you!
• Mary: That's great, and I also love the fact that it's on sale now at my favorite pharmacy for buy 2 get one free! [Fake knowledge that Mary didn't really have, but the ad writers thought sounded better from her.]
• John: Right you are, Mary! And the sale runs from now until Christmas!!! [jingle, ka-ching! jingle, ka-ching! . . . repeat until fade-out]

And of course this new Golden Age advertisement in the guise of a letter is setting up the idea that this is a great witnessing tool as a stepping stone (or "gateway" book) to get them to buy real WATCH TOWER publications.

Again this "one" appreciative reader speaks for the many who would like to get more information regarding these items, apparently knowing all along that such orders will actually need to go to the A. B. Abac Company.

In my next post I'll cover the response to these letters in the same issue of the Golden Age.

[Anna]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Samuel Herd Talk referencing Angels and Women.mp3

I didn't hear him say anything about it being a "fantastic novel" as quoted by the original poster, but he definitely recommended it  by saying; "You may want to pick it up and read it" and that "it's very interesting reading" .  

I would like to comment on a lot more but this is a busy two weeks for me work wise, and I am able only to read the comments, and  briefly reply with little snippets that don't require a lot of thought (well, I am blonde)...

[JW Insider]

This is the final part of the discussion of the December 3, 1924 advertisement for the "Angels and Women" book where the Golden Age responds to the two letters:

One letter showed concerns about the spiritistic origin of the book and one whole-heartedly endorsed it. The reply is shown in full:

Angels and Women . . .

Reply

TO BOTH above letters we reply as follows:

When Pastor Russell was here, he read a book dealing with conditions that obtained prior to the flood. He requested some other brethren to read it. It was so much in harmony with the Bible account of the fallen angels that he regarded the book as remarkable. Under his supervision it was revised, and later published by one who was formerly his confidential associate. The new book is published under the title "Angels and Women". Scriptural citations are given. An appendix is added. Pastor Russell remarked that at some opportune time the book, revised, should be published.

As to its being a violation of the Vow to read this book, such an idea is not worthy of consideration. It would be no more wrong to read it than to read "What Say the Scriptures about Spiritism" or "Talking With the Dead"; for both these books quote much as to what the evil spirits do. Many have derived much benefit from reading "Angels and Women" because it aids in getting a clearer vision of how Satan overreached the angels and overreached the human race, and caused all the havoc amongst men and angels. It helps one to a better understanding of the devil's organization.

The book is published by the A. B. Abac Company, Madison Square, P.O. Box 101, New York City, N. Y.

THE GOLDEN AGE does not handle this publication; but all who desire it should write directly to the publisher at the above address.

As expected by the order and content of the letters, the Society was going to repeat its current stance and offer a small (dismissive) defense to take care of the slight objection.

We do apparently learn that it was revised under Russell's supervision, but Woodworth (the Golden Age) editor has also claimed that Russell was supervising every aspect of the work since 1916 from beyond the grave (beyond the vail/veil). So we don't really know if Brenisen (Brenneisen) started work on this before 1916 or not. (Later we'll see a reason to believe that Woodworth is referring to Russell supervising the revision after he died: 1916 through 1924.) 

The connection to "The Vow" would seem to be obvious. But note that the answer is that this book is no more wrong than to read books by the "faithful and discreet slave" on the subject of spiritism. Perhaps it was the added appendix with scriptural citations that made this rationalization possible. The book is claimed to have provided "new light" in that it gives a better understanding of the Devil's organization, and gives a clearer vision of "how" Satan overreached the angels and humans.

The street address is not given, just a post office number. This is thought to be Brenisen's publishing company.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Why DID Jesus preach to the spirits in prison?  I think that is a fascinating question and I can't imagine any reason other than some might repent.

You are right. It's a fascinating question. I can't say that you are wrong, but the Watch Tower publications now say that his reason for preaching was not "good news" but a proclamation of his victory which would be about the same as an announcement of their impending adverse judgment.

*** it-2 p. 674 Preacher, Preaching ***

• What was the objective of Jesus’ preaching “to the spirits in prison”?  At 1 Peter 3:19, 20, after describing Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life, the apostle says: “In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” Commenting on this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says: “In I Pet. 3:19 the probable reference is, not to glad tidings (which there is no real evidence that Noah preached, nor is there evidence that the spirits of antediluvian people are actually ‘in prison’), but to the act of Christ after His resurrection in proclaiming His victory to fallen angelic spirits.” (1981, Vol. 3, p. 201) As has been noted, ke·rysʹso refers to a proclamation that may be not only of something good but also of something bad, as when Jonah proclaimed Nineveh’s coming destruction. The only imprisoned spirits referred to in the Scriptures are those angels of Noah’s day who were ‘delivered into pits of dense darkness’ (2Pe 2:4, 5) and “reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6) Therefore the preaching by the resurrected Jesus to such unrighteous angels could only have been a preaching of judgment. It may be noted that the book of Revelation transmitted in vision to John by Christ Jesus toward the close of the first century C.E. contains much about Satan the Devil and his demons as well as their ultimate destruction, hence, a preaching of judgment. (Re 12-20) Peter’s use of the past tense (“preached”) indicates that such preaching had been done prior to the writing of his first letter.

I don't see anything specifically problematic about the current explanation, but as I said I can't say that you're wrong either.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

14 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Aren’t you a real author? Or have you demoted yourself to be a self-employed novelist?

Yeah J.R.Ewing ... I remember the day I realized I was 40 years older and growing bald.

Perhaps it was just gravity pulling the hair down.

At least ... my eyebrows grew back!

 

Since I need to stay on topic.... weren't most Mummies, actually Daddies?

.

[Queen Esther]

Hahaha....  @James Thomas Rook Jr.   I believe,  you've a deal /contract with  "007" !!  YES   

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Well, the good thing your argument doesn’t hold water. You accuse Russell of universalism that is not consistent with the evidence.

I'm not sure why you are still so concerned about this part of the discussion. I don't know if you ever noticed that I still have never accused Russell of universalism. All I said was:

• Russell apparently came pretty close to believing in "universal salvation" and this would include a number of fallen angels according to his thinking. He seemed sure that Adam, although perfect, would be resurrected to an opportunity to eternal life

I'd be happy to change the words "pretty close" to "Russell apparently came a little closer than most of us realize to believing in universal salvation, even though he was still not a true and complete believer in universal salvation." By this I mean that some of us would probably be surprised that Russell ever made statements claiming that fallen angels might be redeemed, or even that Adam himself would be brought back to life on earth. I do think these ideas are related to the ideas of "universal salvation.' Perhaps you think there is no relationship. That's OK too. I just thought that the point should be made. I appreciate that you would have used different words to make the point. Of course, you might not agree with the point, and that's OK, too. Remember that just about everything said here is just an opinion.

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, if the book was NOT published by the Watchtower, then it would mean, it became a good read for the purpose of confirming bible history through other published works.

The point I'm trying to figure out is how and why a book of fiction was able to confirm Bible history. Could Mark Twain have written a really good story about lepers in Jesus' day that somehow confirmed that the Bible was right about Jesus curing lepers? If Russell or Brenneisen or Woodworth or someone else had read Mark Twain's book and promoted it, would that have somehow meant that it had confrmed the Bible's accounts?

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Now, prove Russell personally accepted spiritism by your accusation?

Why would I do that? I still don't believe it's even likely that Russell accepted spiritism in any form. I don't believe he realized that the influence from pyramidologist became a form of divination. I'm not even sure that Russell thought this book was dictated by a fallen angel. I certainly never thought it was, no matter what the Watch Tower publications claimed about it in 1924.

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, with your argument, we should not give any credence, to published works that might be of biblical interest for research. That just shows the limitation one is willing to give in a fair and thorough quest for bible understanding.

Not sure where or why you would get that either. I think that authors often come up with interesting angles most of us would never think of, and a lot of these ideas could make the Bible accounts make more sense. These extra-Biblical authors aren't necessarily right, but their speculations might just allow us to see something in the original account we hadn't seen before. But no extra-Biblical speculations -- yours, mine, or even some brilliant author's -- should be given special "credence" just because we think they got their information from some spirit or some claimed source of inspiration.

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

However, you continue to ignore the plain and simple truth, no matter how many times you resurrect “Bible Student ideology” like opposers, that has NOTHING to do with present JW understanding is, Russell rejected Universalism.

You can go on all you want about Russell rejecting Universalism. It has nothing to do with my point, which is based on what Russell claimed to believe, not the label you are arguing about. I've known for 40 years that Russell rejected Universalism several times. This is why I never claimed that he accepted Universalism. My point was about how he had accepeted something pretty close to universalism, in my opinion. At least your statement above shows that you are aware that this has nothing to do with present JW understanding.

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Now the other misconception that is evident in your argument is, between universal redemption versus universal salvation.

No. That's still false. My argument was that Russell made clear statements that he thought fallen angels could repent and get back into Jehovah's favor. My secondary, supporting argument was Russell also made clear statements that Adam would be brought back to life on earth for an opportunity for everlasting life. Labels we might or might not put on such types of argumentation are still irrelevant.

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Why did those demons ask Jesus if he was  going to abyss them "before it was  time"  if they didn't already know what would happen when it was "time"?

These are all good questions. I don't know the answer.

8 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Those spirit creatures wouldn't have to be exactly the same "one third of the stars" the dragon dragged to the earth in a certain year [- about which we disagree I think] would they?

We know which ones Peter was speaking about because he told us. But these are still good questions. I don't think I have anything to add at the moment on that subject though because I always give the Watch Tower publications the benefit of the doubt unless the ideas create a difficulty harmonizing with the scriptures or a contradiction with other scriptures on the same subject.

[Anna]

On lunch break. I just thought I would illustrate how easily hysteria can get a hold of even rational people; there is an old abandoned house at the end of a small field on a little hill in our neighbourhood. It’s been empty for years and there are vultures nesting on the top floor near the chimney. The windows are all broken, the door boarded up...well you get the picture. It looks a little like Norman BatesÂ’ mother could have lived there.  My son, when he was a teenager would go and take the dogs for a walk in the field, and at the weekends he and his friends would roam around there. We called it the haunted house. Well I still take the dog there for a run twice a day, as the owner of the property gave me permission. So guess what, the other night, after our extensive discussions of spirits and demon possession, I go and take the dog for his nightly walk as usual , but I never went near the house this time because I was spooked! Yep. I know intellectually there are no demons in that house, as I donÂ’t believe that is what demons do.  And yet I felt scared and weird about going there that night. I swear I could have seen NormanÂ’s mother peeking out of the window, lol. Talk about mental suggestion! So my point is, if Russell and others,  (later on Rutherford), occupied themselves with this subject that came in to vogue at the time, then no wonder readers were on high alert and perhaps saw something demonic in everything. If you think I am wrong then go and watch a horror film (I am not really suggesting you do that) and then go and walk down a dark alley or visit an old grave yard in the middle of the night.

Interestingly I think I found the culprit to the “hysteria” in the Truth book (of course there may be other publications). Note portions in bold.  That whole section is entitled “Keep free from every form of spiritism” Then it goes to list a variety of spiritistic practices, so the reader is made aware that dabbling in them (despite being popular) is not something a Christian would do.  Then it goes to the paragraph I cited bellow, about spirits misleading people by talking to them. But in view of the paragraph above it in the book, this is still within the framework of “spiritistic practices” in this case consulting a medium or dabbling with an Ouija board etc. in other words actively seeking out such a connection.  But the sentence in bold, can make someone understand that a demon will talk to you randomly out of the blue, even if you have not actively sought a connection.  And it’s then that we  have the suggestion to pray out loud and call on Jehovah’s name,  which reaffirms the understanding that the spirit has chosen you randomly, because why would you pray and say Jehovah’s name out loud if you were inviting the spirit to communicate with you in the first place? And there’s I think is the connection and misunderstanding.

Then the next paragraph re-connects the reader with the practice of spiritism again;  “what if someone had dabbled....and now wants to break free”. The advice is to destroy anything  related to spiritistic practices (used by the person I assume) in the manner of those in Ephesus, i.e. burn them.

So there is nothing saying that objects will be randomly possessed by demons and that the demons will randomly pick on you and talk to you. I am not saying that there may not have been magazine articles being more explicit about random demon possession and personal experiences stories of random possession, but it seems the Truth book never directly said anything like that, and looks more like it was the reader’s misunderstanding  that caused the confusion....To recap, it's the practice of spiritism, i.e. actively seeking out spirits that causes problems, not random objects, (even if perhaps once in the possession of a spirit medium), or random voices that pick on a person who has never consulted them, and then our personal feelings due to inferred "suggestion" from books such as the Truth book and other publications, and from stories. And then it's a viscous circle....

I am sure I could have said all this in a couple of sentences....

Truth book p. 62/63:

“One of the common ways in which wicked

spirits mislead people is by talking to them, either

through a spirit medium or by a "voice" from the

invisible realm. The "voice" pretends to be a departed

relative or a good spirit; but this is falsehood!

The voice is actually a wicked spirit speaking!

What should you do if such a "voice" speaks

to you? Well, what did Jesus Christ do when the

ruler of the wicked spirits spoke to him? Jesus

rejected the Devil's suggestions, saying: "Go

away, Satan!" [Matthew 4:10) You can do that

too. Also, you can call on Jehovah for aid, praying

aloud and using his name. Follow this wise course,

-and do not give ear to such voices from the invisible realm.

But what if one has been dabbling in some of

the spiritistic religions or sciences and now wants

to break free from spiritism? Well, what did many

of the early Christians at Ephesus do when they

wanted to get free from the magical arts? The

Bible tells us that, after accepting the "word of

Jehovah" preached by the apostle Paul, they

"brought their books together and burned them

up before everybody," even though they were

worth 50,000 pieces of silver! (Acts 19:19, 20)

Their example of destroying objects related to

spiritistic practices is the wise one to follow.

le Do not be deceived by the increasing interest

in mystic and occult matters. Wicked spirit creatures

are promoting such spiritism. But these

wicked spirit forces, including the Devil, will

eventually be destroyed. (Matthew 25:41) If you

want eternal life you need to stay free from their

influence by avoiding every kind of spiritism.

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

28 minutes ago, Anna said:

The windows are all broken, the door boarded up...well you get the picture. ...So guess what, the other night, after our extensive discussions of spirits and demon possession, I go and take the dog for his nightly walk as usual , but I never went near the house this time because I was spooked! ...And yet I felt scared and weird about going there that night. I swear I could have seen Norman’s mother peeking out of the window, lol. Talk about mental suggestion! .... If you think I am wrong then go and watch a horror film (I am not really suggesting you do that) and then go and walk down a dark alley or visit an old grave yard in the middle of the night.

BOO!!!!