Watchtower pays $4000 per day for disobeying Secular Authority

[Noble Berean]

Just now, Gone Fishing said:

Let the courts decide.

They already did.

[Anna]

49 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Why are they not respecting the superior authorities? How does giving this namelist violate our beliefs?

You need to ask those who make this decision.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

 It's concerning to me that more and more people are coming to associate the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses with child abuse.

I doubt this is true. In ex- JW circles definitely, but I have to this date never met anyone who mentions this issue door to door, or anywhere else. Just because ex- JW sites are full of this doesn't mean people in general associate us with this problem which is rife in every circle of society. In our neighborhood I counted 8 within a 3 mile radius, with one who has been convicted of sexual assault of the 1st degree on an 8 year old and he lives down the street from my house. Bare in mind these are convicted offenders, there are more who haven't been convicted, very much for the same reasons as some JWs are not convicted....

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

They already did.

Not over yet.

[Noble Berean]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I doubt this is true. In ex- JW circles definitely, but I have to this date never met anyone who mentions this issue door to door, or anywhere else. Just because ex- JW sites are full of this doesn't mean people in general associate us with this problem which is rife in every circle of society. In our neighborhood I counted 8 within a 3 mile radius, with one who has been convicted of sexual assault of the 1st degree on an 8 year old and he lives down the street from my house. Bare in mind these are convicted offenders, there are more who haven't been convicted, very much for the same reasons as some JWs are not convicted....

I hope that is the case...for Jehovah's name to stay clean and unblemished from these sexual abuse cases. But I believe we have only scratched the surface of these child abuse cases. As these legal cases before more frequent, I worry the media will soon eat this up. I can't imagine having to explain these policies to someone in the door-to-door ministry. I would just say I have no control over the organization's legal policies and that I would always report to the police.

Surprisingly, a man did show up at my former kingdom hall asking about the child abuse to elders. They had to lock the doors after that. There is a rumor that Leah Remini may focus on Jehovah's Witnesses as a spinoff of her show on Scientology. And I also saw that Dr. Phil might include JWs in an episode on controlling religions/cults. It's all worrying to me, but it's just another brick in the wall.

[Noble Berean]

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Not over yet.

Ok, but what will it prove? If they win, they've still acknowledged they have a secret list of alleged abusers in the congregation. If they lose, the courts get the namelist and it appears that the organization resisted complying with secular authorities. I don't see how any of this can be spun in a positive way.

[Noble Berean]

On 11/12/2017 at 7:28 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

On June 23, 2016, San Diego, California, Superior Court Judge Richard Strauss grew tired of the Watchtower Society fighting his order to produce a 1997 letter sent to all elders worldwide, and decided to sanction the religion with a fine of $4000 per day until the Watchtower complied with that order. 

Today is  November 12 2017. Quick mathematical say that this Company payed almost $2 000 000 until today. Imagine how many ice creams children in JW congregations  would be able to enjoy after Sunday meetings in KH, with this fund. Imagine how many poor bro and sis in congregations worldwide would be helped and receive some comfort for daily life.

But as Bible say: Proverbs 22:2 -"The rich and poor have this in common: The Lord made them both." 28:6 - "Better to be poor and honest than to be dishonest and rich."

Source: JW Victims.org

https://jwvictims.org/2017/10/18/news-update-watchtower-appeals-4000-per-day-fine-by-flipflopping-on-their-own-legal-argument/

https://questionsforjehovahswitnesses.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/d070723-marked-up.pdf 

@Srecko Sostar you are being personally downvoted for spreading the news about our organization and that's sad. This isn't an apostate fabrication. Does reality trigger JWs on here? Us JWs have to face the reality of what's happening instead of digging our heads in the sand. We may face these questions in the ministry. 

Honestly, the organization needs to be 100% transparent right now about their child abuse policies, because we act as representatives for them when we go out. I shouldn't have to view some weird PDF of the Shepherd's Flock book to get a grasp of the org's policies (which I still don't get). 

[Noble Berean]

10 hours ago, Elisabeth Dolewka said:

@Elisabeth Dolewka I can't wait for this day when our biggest worry will be what's for dinner!

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

I would just say I have no control over the organization's legal policies and that I would always report to the police.

Good answer.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Surprisingly, a man did show up at my former kingdom hall asking about the child abuse to elders. They had to lock the doors after that.

Sounds suspiciously like an ex-member I'm afraid..

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

There is a rumor that Leah Remini may focus on Jehovah's Witnesses as a spinoff of her show on Scientology.

I heard about that, but I haven't heard about Dr. Phil. It's good to remember that these shows are there to attract an audience and to make money. I am not saying this because I don't believe there is a problem. You probably know by now that I have delved into this area quite extensively already.

There are two faces to the reporting on child abuse. The one we see mostly is the one presented to us by the media which as we know only has limited time and space to cover everything, and sensationalism is what sells. Then there are the facts. Facts are extremely hard to come by because often such information is not easily available. The best kind of facts regarding a particular case are those we can obtain through court transcripts some of which are thousands of pages long, but even then, there are some facts that are inadmissible in court.

Just as an example, here is an extract from a court transcript dealing with two proposed witnesses to testify against the WT. Note how the judge ascertains their value in this particular case (Victoria Boer vs WT 2003). Bare in mind that these two witnesses are two of the "go to" people used by ex-witnesses in cases against JW child sexual abuse, and what they say on their websites or books is considered to be accurate information regarding the policies of JWs:

<During the course of the trial, the plaintiff sought leave to present evidence from two witnesses about certain characteristics or practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in situations similar to this one. I ruled such evidence to be inadmissable, with reasons to follow.

[27] The first witness, Professor James Penton, is an historian and the author of a book entitled Apocalypse Delayed . Mr. Mark, on behalf of the plaintiff, intended to elicit evidence from Mr. Penton with respect to his conclusions about various characteristics of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the way women are treated within that faith and the functioning of Judicial Committees. Professor Penton’s evidence would be based on his research and would constitute opinion. He does not have first-hand evidence. However, Mr Mark did not deliver notice of his intention to call an expert on this topic and did not serve an expert report on the defense as required under the Evidence Act , R.S.O 1990, c E23. That alone is fatal to the plaintiff’s request to call this evidence. The defence would have been caught by surprise with no opportunity to prepare, nor to call its own evidence to rebut the evidence of Mr. Penton.

[28] In any event, I am by no means satisfied that expert evidence of this nature would have been admissable in respect of these matters. It seems to me that I am in a position to determine the relevant facts to the particular matters before me without the assistance of an expert on these matters.

[29] The second witness proposed by the plaintiff is Barbara Anderson, who was a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York from 1954 until her recent disfellowship (ejection from the faith). The plaintiff proposed to elicit evidence from Ms. Anderson as to her knowledge of how sexual abuse of children is dealt with within that religion and of cover-ups of abuse within that society. Most of Ms. Anderson’s proposed testimony would be hearsay. The plaintiff argued it would be admissable as similar fact evidence that the actions of the defendants in this case was part of a design, rather than negligence.

[30] The general test for the admissibility of similar fact evidence in a civil trial is derived from Mood Music Publishing Co. v DeWolf Ltd .; [1976] Ch 19, 1 ALL E.R. 763 (C.A.) In that case, Lord Denning stated, at page 127 (Ch)

…in civil cases the court will admit evidence of similar facts if it is logically probative, that is if it is logically relevant in determining the matter which is in issue; provided that it is not oppressive or unfair to the other side; and also that the other side has fair notice of it and is able to deal with it.

[31] The proposed evidence from Ms. Anderson fails this test on every front. First, it is not logically probative of any issue before me. Whatever may have been Ms. Anderson’s personal experience with the Jehovah’s Witness faith, and whatever information she may have gleaned about how child abuse cases were dealt with elsewhere, she has no evidence whatsoever about the Toronto or Shelburne congregations or any of the individuals in this case. Further, even her information about Watch Tower generally relates to that organization in the United States. There is nothing about her evidence that would assist in the very specific findings of fact I am required to make about what happened in the case before me.>

 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Honestly, the organization needs to be 100% transparent right now about their child abuse policies, because we act as representatives for them when we go out

One thing we need to remember is to stay objective. Just because ex-witnesses whip up countless cases and horror stories does not mean the situation is as extreme as it sounds. I can afford to say this because I am a nobody. It doesn't matter if someone accuses me of cover ups  etc. I am not the Org. However the org. cannot said anything like this even if it is true.  Of course one abused child is one too many, and of course even one case should not be minimized. But I can afford to say that in my whole time as a JW, in many congregations in several countries I have not come across this problem, and believe me this problem does not stay hidden, Witnesses do talk and gossip and word gets around pretty quickly. Not only that, but I have seen elders and ex-elders who would have information admit they have not come across one case. Even one ex- member of the GB admitted that the problem is not extreme and that he himself was not personally aware of a single case. Evidently there have been and are cases. There is such a plethora of people from all kinds of social backgrounds and levels of spiritual maturity in the worldwide brotherhood that it makes it statistically impossible not to have cases of child sexual abuse, sad as it sounds. The other thing is acquiring facts about these cases. As I already mentioned above, these are extremely hard to come by, and without knowing facts, we cannot really make a fair judgement...

Apparently, there is a  handbook on child abuse guidelines which are made available to any publisher who asks for one. Has anyone done this? I haven't since I no longer have small children.

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Ok, but what will it prove?

Whatever the courts say is proved. If crimes are committed, they will be uncovered. Where's your faith?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Apparently, there is a  handbook on child abuse guidelines which are made available to any publisher who asks for one. Has anyone done this?

Published on this forum wasn't it?

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

the organization needs to be 100% transparent right now about their child abuse policies

The same is also with Australian Royal Commission in 2015. No single word on JW broadcasting or publications. Because of the the fact that WT never mentioned nothing officially, for JW public - officially, for  members looks as nothing was happened at all. No pedophiles, no victims, no Court or Commissions investigations, decisions, out of Court settlements ...

JW members are trained to not believe nothing that come from secular source what have any connections about WT and JW Church. 

Cognitive dissonance is very strong and go to direction of full trust to WT leaders. Trust to men. Sad.