Demas, Scriptures Daily 13th March 2020

[JW Insider]

36 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

you believe the Watchtower is stating, all those people (First Century Christian) were anointed by God's Holy Spirit

Yes. That's it. I said nothing about all of them necessarily being apostles. I said nothing about the distinction of gifts. I said nothing about minimizing the responsibility of anyone. These are all ideas that you are adding into the mix.

36 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

I understood your first prospect correctly.

Evidently, you did not understand it at all! @Allen_Smith

[Guest Tom Henry]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Yes. That's it. I said nothing about all of them necessarily being apostles. I said nothing about the distinction of gifts. I said nothing about minimizing the responsibility of anyone. These are all ideas that you are adding into the mix.

Good, I understood you correctly when you were making a distinction that isn't in the Watchtower doctrine by the language you are using. Just making sure your readers understand how writing language can be used to undermine something.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Evidently, you did not understand it at all! @Allen_Smith

Is this a joke? Or is it, I understand things more than most?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote "Witnesses should be made aware of not locking themselves with worldly views." 

Then we get this "It doesn't minimize the responsibility of the GB to standout as responsible men in accordance with scripture."

Where in scripture does it say that 8 men in America should exalt themselves above all of the Anointed Earthwide ? 

Luke 14 v 11 warns against such actions. 

In honesty the GB seem a bit ---- in this respect. I do wonder how American JWs would feel if the GB were all of another kind and based in another country.  (I know I have to be careful with my words here ) 

BUT @Tom Henry  Witnesses should be made aware of not locking themselves with GB views. 

Remember it's GOD'S view that matters not the GB of CCJW. 

•  

[JW Insider]

On 3/14/2020 at 9:19 AM, John Houston said:

Where in scripture does it say that all the first century Christians were of the 'anointed', those of the 144,000?

The scriptures actually do give indications that ALL first century Christians were anointed, and therefore that all of them were "of the 144,000." But, as pointed out earlier, we also have the indications from verses like Matt 5:5 and Rev 21:1 and 2 Pet 3:13 that there was (or would be) an earthly hope included as part of Jehovah's kingdom through Christ.

On 3/14/2020 at 9:19 AM, John Houston said:

No, Jehovah has chosen only 144,000 and has done it carefully and with patience. He has the time and having Holy Spirit was not a requisite, it gave them gifts, tools for the ministry, not a seat on a throne in heaven!

What you say appears logical. And it might even be scriptural. My only point was that you might not realize you are rejecting a long-standing Watchtower doctrine: that all of the early Christian were "anointed" and that, according to the Watchtower, this meant that they only had the heavenly hope in front of them.

I'll provide some examples:

*** w17 September p. 24 par. 2 “The Word of God . . . Exerts Power” ***
The Bible mentions one anointed Christian in the first century who had to be disfellowshipped; later, he was reinstated. (1 Cor. 5:1-5; 2 Cor. 2:5-8)

*** w16 November p. 14 par. 1 Do You Highly Esteem Jehovah’s Own Book? ***
Consider the first-century Christians Euodia and Syntyche. Serious problems arose between these anointed women.

Why do you think the Watchtower, above, concludes that this incestuous man was anointed? Why were these two women necessarily anointed?

*** w16 January p. 26 par. 15 “We Want to Go With You” ***
15 Jehovah chooses when in history he will select anointed ones. (Rom. 8:28-30) Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus’ death and resurrection, and it seems that all in the first-century Christian congregation were anointed.

Here, above, was one of the very first times that the Watchtower added the word "seems" to this idea. As if they were not sure any more.

In fact, there were literally hundreds of thousands of persons who thought they were Christians who actually gave up their lives for their faith and to protect other so-called Christians within the first couple centuries after Christ. The Watchtower has had to identify most of these so-called Christian martyrs as "weeds." For example, in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, there were 144,000 martyrs around Egypt alone. Another 40,000 suffered martyrdom under Nero, another 700,000 here, another 17,000 there.

Think about that! Hundreds of thousands, or even millions of persons were baptized as Christians, and would not compromise their faith or their neutrality and were therefore killed (matryed) for being Christian. But we have to identify the great majority of them as "weeds" to judge them to eternal death, rather than allow them to be included in a chance for a resurrection to life on earth.

*** w16 January p. 26 par. 15 “We Want to Go With You” ***
From the first century until the beginning of the last days, the vast majority of those who claimed to follow Christ were false Christians; Jesus likened them to “weeds.”

Judging them as weeds would not be necessary if the Watchtower had the option of just considering them as weak, uninformed, unrighteous persons. Instead of judging them as "weeds" worthy of going off into everlasting destruction, they would have had an opportunity to be included in the resurrection to potentially accept life on earth.

The Watchtower once ran this information about such persecutions:

*** w51 9/1 p. 518 Hated for His Name ***

Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom. . . . Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.

But that information triggered a question from readers just a few months later:

*** w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers ***
According to the article “Hated for His Name” in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the “ten persecutions” starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.
The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: “In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” The victims are identified as “professed Christians”, not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.

We would probably hope to be able to read into this answer the idea that they could have been Christians who did not meet the requirements for the heavenly hope but might still be in line for an earthly resurrection. That idea is avoided, because the only choice given is between being "anointed Christians" or "professed Christians." So, typically, they were mostly judged as "weeds." My table head at Bethel said that these questions had seriously bothered some at Bethel at the time they first came out because Fred Franz had commented that almost all the millions of "Christian" martyrs were "weeds" destined for Gehenna. He [Bethel elder, table head] even claimed to know which Gilead missionary with the initials J.A. had just gone to the Dominican Republic, and had been the person behind the question above.

I'm pretty sure that no current member of the GB would claim that the majority of these early Christian martyrs would be necessarily assigned to Gehenna. But the wording about "weeds" is not very reassuring.

[Kosonen]

@JW Insider It is good that we do not have to decide their fate. Jesus as the appointed judge knows which judgement or reward is best suited to each individual.

But I just recently read a sobering scripture we all probably remember. Revelation 2:1

 “To the angel of the congregation in Ephʹe·sus write: These are the things that he says who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2  ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars. 3  You are also showing endurance, and you have persevered for the sake of my name and have not grown weary. 4  Nevertheless, I hold this against you, that you have left the love you had at first. 5  “‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first. If you do not, I will come to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

 

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

But I just recently read a sobering scripture we all probably remember. Revelation 2:1

Yes. It's a good scripture, and it might even indicate how a person could even endure unto death, and yet still, if their actions were not based on "love," Jesus would remove their approved condition.

What's interesting is that, although someone might be able to see this as ultimate condemnation, it would have been just as possible to see this as a removal of their spiritual standing as anointed persons, and not necessarily leading to an ultimate condemnation. The lampstand could be an indication of their "anointing" as the spirit is often associated with light and lamps. In fact the counsel to the congregation in Ephesus includes hope for those who endure unto death (conquers) by concluding with:

(Revelation 2:7) . . .To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

[Kosonen]

49 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The lampstand could be an indication of their "anointing" as the spirit is often associated with light and lamps.

May be, I don't understand this yet fully.

[Guest Tom Henry]

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Where in scripture does it say that 8 men in America should exalt themselves above all of the Anointed Earthwide ?

The way you place your question, none. This is the same kind of language I was referring to earlier. If you understand Acts 6:3 then yes, Bible does stipulate there should be responsible men to take the lead. God has used earthly men to take the lead for his people, regardless if it was local or, now earth wide. Jesus Command to go make disciples throughout the world give God that earth wide authority to choice wise men.

[JW Insider]

48 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

May be, I don't understand this yet fully.

I don't either, but the Watchtower publications going as far back as Russell and Rutherford all associate the anointing and the spirit with light and lamps. As does Acts 2, Matthew 25, parts of Revelation, etc.

*** w04 3/1 p. 14 par. 8 ‘The Faithful Slave’ Passes the Test! ***
Now, anointed Christians needed to go out and meet him in the earthly courtyards of that temple. It was time for them to “shed forth light."

[Guest Tom Henry]

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But I just recently read a sobering scripture we all probably remember. Revelation 2:1

You read this correctly, those that have been baptized and then return to worldly views and have no repentance in their hearts loose that earthly hope of redemption. Even if a person returns and continues to promote division and strife continue that lost redemption. Love is part of unity. The body of Christ commands unity to endure.

[JW Insider]

12 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

those that have been baptized and then return to worldly views and have no repentance in their hearts loose that earthly hope of redemption.

This is very true, and applies to those of us with the earthly hope and those of the heavenly hope. It seems more serious for those of the heavenly hope:

(Hebrews 6:4-6) . . .For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.

(Hebrews 10:26-29) . . .For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?

The same principle applies to all of us, however. All of us need to remain united in love and truth. All of us need to make sure we are not just following people blindly, but make sure we are not going against accurate knowledge of truth. Just as the Jewish law could demand death for those who trampled that Law, a Christian could trample the law of undeserved kindness and love.

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But the wording about "weeds" is not very reassuring.

Sometimes weeds turn out to have medicinal uses and are thus not so bad after all.

If I put my car keys in the wrong drawer, it does not mean they no longer exist. It doesn’t mean I can never drive my car again. Nor does it mean I should have my license revoked for being reckless. Instead, when I next need to drive, i discover my keys are not in the right place. I find them and put them there.

It is the same with weeds. If the org put them somewhere improper, that does not mean that Jehovah does. It does not mean that they are in the wrong drawer forever. It does not mean that the ones who put them in the wrong drawer ought have their spiritual license revoked. Nor need it be any huge priority to revisit the drawer of 2000 years ago and put them into another when you need not do anything with the updated status for the foreseeable future. They misjudged, perhaps. It happens.

Probably Revelation 2:2 accounts for it:  “I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.“ You know how our people are about keeping without spot from spiritual contamination. When the Sons of Thunder raged about people not doing things right, they were not booted out from the 12 on that account. Brothers probably overreacted and will in time rethink it. There is hardly any hurry with people that have been dead and gone for 2000 years.

You mentioned before about how Bart Ehrman is not nearly so annoying when he is just recalling background history, and not desecrating the scriptures themselves. So when he highlights how almost immediately Christianity began to be divided into factions—moving up the date of such to the minute after Jesus died—whereas we would say till the death of the apostles, who themselves had to strain for all they were worth to keep it all together—and so Bart outlines how unity (which he never thought was there to begin with) promptly went the way of the four winds. JW HQ of the past doesn’t want to hear it, so brands them all false. I don’t think it is across the board. They have covered apologists, also ones like Waldenses throughout history and described them as mixed bags—doing some things right but not others, and probably Jehovah will take that into account.

People are only responsible for aging upon what they know, and Bart makes clear no one knew too much of anything after a myriad of self-styled reformers and reformaters pulled the faith this way or that. The germ that was left was still precious enough for people to die for, and in the resurrection they can fill in the blanks, like Phillip did for the eunich.

 

The departure from unity that begins directly after Jesus death is reflected here, where a dozen people weigh in with a dozen different takes, and only a few try to hold the fort—and they presently give up because it is the internet and the internet is not the congregation. Though those who oppose are united in their opposition, it is easy to see that they are not united themselves and each promote their own views which cannot long coexist with each other—unless it is all a spectacle for social media, where getting along is not important.