Demas, Scriptures Daily 13th March 2020

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Probably Revelation 2:2 accounts for it:  “I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.“

Excellent point. And it goes back to what some have already said: that Jesus is still the Head of the congregation. He knows deeds, and he knows the heart behind those deeds, whether they are motivated by love and undeserved kindness.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You mentioned before about how Bart Ehrman is not nearly so annoying when he is just recalling background history, and not desecrating the scriptures themselves. So when he highlights how almost immediately Christianity began to be divided into factions—moving up the date of such to the minute after Jesus died—whereas we would say till the death of the apostles, . . . .

As long as you mentioned Ehrman, he gets a lot more than the usual attention because he spends a lot of time trying to denigrate the "NT" texts based on variances that appear to be direct contradictions. I suppose there might be a few "contradictions" that could have crept in as textual edits, maybe even quite early ones, such as "kyrios" over a possible version of "yhwh". But I noticed that a lot of these assumptions are just based on complete misunderstandings of the purpose of a specific verse or chapter. Or an entire book, like the letter of James, for example. James was nearly rejected from the canon by no less than Eusebius, because he thought it completely contradicted Paul. Then Martin Luther comes along 1500 years after James and claims James was not inspired at all and should be left out of the canon. And these ideas, even among supposed Christians, are just based on the exaggeration of an ideology instead of making the attempt to understand a common way of thinking among the Jewish audience, where "conflicts" were resolved as different "faces" of the same thing.

By that I mean something close to this quote from a book about the differences in Greek and Jewish thinking. The book is called Against the Greeks: Understanding the Classical Jewish Worldview:

For Aristotle, language is conventional, and therefore Aristotle's law of exclusion tells us that we can have either "P or not P." However, in Jewish thought "P and not P" can exist simultaneously. . . . Aristotle considers only one dimension of meaning in the text as opposed to the rabbinic view that there are 70 faces . . . to the Torah's meaning."

What might look like a contradiction is an intentional presentation of various aspects that the Jewish mind was quite capable of resolving for a deeper understanding. Not so different from aspects of poetry, which is also a dying art, at least as a standalone art. It survives fairly well in song lyrics, such as they are, post-Dylan.

[Kosonen]

@JW Insider Interesting comments. I just remembered a such scripture in Proverbs 26:4  Do not answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, So that you do not put yourself on his level. 5  Answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, So that he does not think he is wise.

[Kosonen]

19 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

@JW Insider Interesting comments. I just remembered a such scripture in Proverbs 26:4  Do not answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, So that you do not put yourself on his level. 5  Answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, So that he does not think he is wise.

I have little bit difficult to understand this 

31 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

common way of thinking among the Jewish audience, where "conflicts" were resolved as different "faces" of the same thing.

But, safest would be to speak and answer in the ways recommended in the New Testament.

[JW Insider]

16 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

I have little bit difficult to understand this 

You might be speaking of the way I gave my opinion, which I deleted, about using the verse from Proverbs on a forum such as this one, where it is difficult to judge people.

I assume you are speaking about the apparent contradiction in Proverbs where we have a "P and not P" example. It's a great example. I was extending it to James' idea about how "faith without works is dead" and Paul pretty much saying "works without faith is dead." Similarly, it's not really a contradiction.

(James 2:20, 21) . . .But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works. . .

(Romans 4:2, 3) . . .if Abraham was declared righteous as a result of works, he would have reason to boast, but not with God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

[Kosonen]

53 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

assume you are speaking about the apparent contradiction in Proverbs where we have a "P and not P" example

Yes, exactly. That scripture in Proverbs 26:4,5 directly popped in my mind as an example of that.

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Ehrman

The blockhead

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Dylan.

Now you’re talking

[TrueTomHarley]

It really is rather amazing. 2 weeks ago would have been too early.  2 weeks from now would have been, ‘well, better late than never.’

The study article yesterday “You can ‘be a source of great comfort’” written months ago, came at just the appropriate time.

[TrueTomHarley]

Many of those who carry on about anointing here have or will soon lose all sense of there being 144K and even the reason for anointing. It seems to be that they largely go back to the church model that ‘all good people go to heaven.’

As for me, a huge draw to the truth was the hope of living forever on earth—where I can well imagine future activities—like that camping trip that you wished would never end—as opposed to everlasting life in heaven, where I can’t imagine what I would do.

In service, I find I almost never talk about anointing because it is irrelevant for all but the tiniest fraction of people. People here in the States who obsess about government  are called ‘inside the beltway’ ‘wonks’ —fascinated to always have their finger on where they imagine the power to be. That’s how I feel about expounding on the anointed— I stay away from it. It hardly matters to most people, whose hope is life on earth.

That partly accounts for AM playing it low-key about not prying anointed ones about just how they knew they were anointed—as though to say ‘Don’t be a wonk.’ There was one ridiculous person here who tried to apply Matthew 23 to him—‘he isn’t good enough to go into the kingdom himself and he tries to bar the way for others.’ What a bunch of loons.

[Witness]

On 3/14/2020 at 6:19 AM, John Houston said:

Where in scripture does it say that all the first century Christians were of the 'anointed', those of the 144,000?

 

On 3/14/2020 at 6:26 AM, JW Insider said:

It's a good question. But be careful if you are asking this question publicly in your congregation. You might not realize that this question was once near the top of the list of red flags to identify apostasy.

With those foreboding words, many who may think the same as John will swallow down their Beroean-like tendencies, and shut their mouth to avoid receiving a label of “apostate”. 

This is all due to the FEAR OF MEN.  Acts 5:29; Isa 2:22   For pity’s sake, when will JWs stand up for Christ’s truth!  Should we fear men, or should we fear God for our ultimate choice to follow men and their lies?   Rev 18:4-8

There were both anointed and those not anointed in the first century, and all together believed and followed Christ’s teachings.

"Truly I tell you, whoever receives anyone I send receives me, and the one who receives me receives him who sent me."  John 13:20

Those "sent" by Christ would be part of the anointed Body -  faithful "priests" and Christ's brothers, who are to teach the people TRUTH.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9

Here, Jesus was addressing the foundation stones of his Body/Temple.  Matt 16:18; John 2:19-21; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17...

"If anyone does not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town”.  Matt 10:14

 

These scriptures below are used by “anointed” leaders in the organization, spoken to those not anointed in the congregations today. The words originated in the first century, not in the 19th, 20th, or 21st century.  They were addressed to both anointed and not anointed, who believed together, as they are used today.     Surely, it is evident that WT leaders are blind (purposefully or not) to what God’s words tell us.  They prefer to twist and turn the scriptures, and follow their own rules, when the timing is convenient... 

“A person should think of us in this way: as servants of Christ and managers of the mysteries of God.”  1 Cor 4:1

“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: ‘Be reconciled to God.’" 2 Cor 5:20

“For God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you demonstrated for his name by serving the saints -- and by continuing to serve them.”  Heb 6:10

“To the church of God at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called as saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord -- both their Lord and ours."  1 Cor 1:2

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’  Matt 25:37-40

 

"For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."  2 Cor 11:4

 

John is right.  And no one should be threatened with a spiritual "death" for rejecting a falsehood.  But it occurs over and over each day in the organization, for those who question men's teachings against Christ's teachings.  Rev 13:15  Yet, they who stand for Christ and his word, are the victors.  John 14:24; Mark 8:38; Luke 6:47-49

[Kosonen]

@Witness Good scriptures to remember.

When I was studying before baptism I took very seriously what Jesus said about helping Jesus' brothers. And I was very curious about the anointed. And it all made sense because at that time all the anointed were considered to be part of the faithful slave. And they were considered to have a much closer relation to God according to Romans 8. And the Bible says that they are first fruits. And that holy spirit is on them in a particular way and that when they read in the Bible about things consering the 144000 they feel it applies on them.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Kosonen And it all made sense because at that time all the anointed were considered to be part of the faithful slave. 

And, Do tell me who had the right to change that ?  Your GB think they have the right to demote the Anointed and to EXALT themselves, and exalt the Elders, but you still serve them ?

@TrueTomHarley Can you explain this please  :-

Many of those who carry on about anointing here have or will soon lose all sense of there being 144K and even the reason for anointing. It seems to be that they largely go back to the church model that ‘all good people go to heaven.’

Where do you get this idea from ? I do realise of course that as you serve your GB, and the GB care not for the Anointed, that you probably also care not for the Anointed. However the scriptures tell us to care for the Anointed ones, Christ's brothers. 

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

When I was studying before baptism I took very seriously what Jesus said about helping Jesus' brothers. And I was very curious about the anointed. And it all made sense because at that time all the anointed were considered to be part of the faithful slave. And they were considered to have a much closer relation to God according to Romans 8. And the Bible says that they are first fruits. And that holy spirit is on them in a particular way and that when they read in the Bible about things consering the 144000 they feel it applies on them.

 

 

I agree whole-heartedly with what you say, but the only thing that we must remember is that Jesus will determine who is a "faithful slave" and who is not.  At one time in the org when all anointed were called the "faithful slave", that too is a misnomer.  We cannot read hearts, only God does. However, we can discern who may be faithful, by the teachings/fruits they produce; whether they last or whether they are rotten from the moment they are taught.  Whoever we are, if our heart yearns for truth, Holy Spirit will lead us to it.  

If we are faithful to false teachings, we are not faithful slaves of truth.  We are not faithful slaves of Christ.  

Matt 25:14-30; 7:8,15-20