Conscience individual and collective

[xero]

There are at least nine types of people in the world.

Those who can't connect the dots.

Those who can but won't connect the dots.

Those who connect the dots, but connect the wrong dots.

Those who can't even see the dots to bother with the question of connecting them.

Those who can and do connect the dots.

Those who imagine there are dots to connect and connect these.

Those who imagine there are dots, but perversely refuse to connect the dots in their imagination.

Those who imagine there are dots, but connect the wrong ones in their imagination.

[Srecko Sostar]

What do you think about the “group dynamics” on this Forum? :))

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, xero said:

JWI - On the other hand, one never knows. It could be that Jehovah is letting an operation of error go to anyone for their ultimate benefit

There is something rather distasteful when one tries to apply the expression about Jehovah allowing an "operation of error" being allowed for anyone's benefit.

(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) . . .But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

(James 1:13-15) . . .let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.

I know that sincere Watchtower writers have written that it was a good thing that the Watchtower made the past mistake about Romans 13. Because it supposedly made us less respectful of secular authorities at a time when we needed to be less respectful, or it made it easier for us to stand up to draft issues, or something like that. And, of course, similar rationales were claimed for the failures of 1914, 1918, 1925 and have been tried for the 1975 issues, too: that it was a test and a filter, etc. We can probably expect similar things to be said about the overlapping groups in "this generation," too, if time allows.

3 hours ago, xero said:

We all have to decide where we're going to draw lines and understand that drawing lines has consequences. Can we do more good inside or outside? Is the good being done more to us inside or outside?

That's clearly correct. When I was first introduced to the problems of our chronology, this is one of the first things impressed upon me by a member of the GB and by a couple members of the Writing Dept. Daniel Sydlik was the most outspoken about the need to just scrap everything about our chronology to start from scratch. But he also spoke to me about how the tongue is a fire and it can set a whole woodland on fire. Although I couldn't verify it until months later, a couple of brothers in the Writing Department told me that Sydlik wasn't the only member of the GB who felt this way. But at the time, I thought the chronology was so important that I asked how they could stay if they believed the chronology was wrong. Later when I looked at the Bible evidence myself, my question changed to: "Well, why don't they just make the change?" Of course, the answer was that proposing such a change could get you DF'd. But they also said that because many Witnesses think of the chronology as a "core" doctrine, as a foundation, that it's too big of a change. One brother always said that if you pull this out from under them, they don't have enough to fall back upon. They assumed that by continuing to write articles that tried to build faith in other core teachings, that they could do much more good inside the organization than outside. So they were careful to keep relatively quiet unless asked directly.

In the congregation, I try to take that same counsel to heart. We can always do more good from inside than from outside, even if we never talk about these specific doctrines at all. But for the sake of my own conscience, I think it's good to try to prepare ourselves for a significant change when more people realize that the chronology is not something we will always be able to fall back on. So I think it's also a good idea to bring it up now and then, but not in a way that makes waves.

5 hours ago, xero said:

I have to say more and more that it doesn't appear to go well for those who choose to go it alone. None of these appear to becoming spiritual giants.

My guess is that this is true. Ones who leave and don't come back seem quite likely to lose spirituality, although I'd also guess that any exceptions are likely not the ones who try to make their voice shout back to us. (Witness thinks that most all the good/true anointed must come through the WTS organization as their test.)

5 hours ago, xero said:

Some could be like this. They recognize an element of slavery, an element of tyranny, but these also recognize they wouldn't have what they have w/o it.

A bit disturbing, again, in the face of scripture:

(Romans 8:14, 15) ¹⁴ For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. ¹⁵ For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again. . .

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

In my personal opinion,

Thanks for respond and opinion.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

, if this site, just admits to being an apostate site, and label it in such a way to reflect it, then I have no problem with the dynamics of this forum. 

If you pay attention to this down, it is clear that this JW Open Club  and Forum as such, not advocating WTJWorg as "only true religion". Even G. Jackson said that in crystal clear way in ARC testimony (perhaps/for sure that was for public only). I underlined a few sentences in Guidelines. What the Forum stands for is completely contrary to the hopes that are ideologically promoted in WTJWorg. 

A) WTJWorg argues that there will be no coexistence of religions in the “New World,” for there will be only one religion known today as "Jehovah's Witnesses".

B) GB does not allow their views to be questioned and challenged.

C) GB does not allow as much freedom of speech as is allowed at the Open Club. I do not mean the freedom of insult that happens from time to time, but the freedom of speech that provides enough arguments to question the existing ideology of WTJWorg.

Guidelines

In addition to the terms and policies upon signup, each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable."

This is a place where news and ideas are expressed, debated and information shared and as such ad hominem (personal) attacks  or labels are not permitted.

Every race, religion, age, disability, gender must coexist on here the same way they would as in a public square in New York Times Square. Illegal, threatening behavior will have you taken out of this public square.

If you are of a certain religion and do not like what someone posts in a different religion's forum you may down vote the post. However expect your views of the world to be respectfully challenged.

Truth only exists if it can stand the "test of fire" so to speak.

We strongly believe in freedom of speech (within legal limits) and want to see even minority view still have a place. Anything "illegal" constitutes anything you might be carted off of New York Times square for.

We hope this is clear enough and we will revisit this as needed. 

[TrueTomHarley]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Truth only exists if it can stand the "test of fire" so to speak.

Oh give me a break!

Show me anything, anywhere that can stand the “test of fire” (so to speak)

We can’t even get people to agree that they landed on the moon in 69.

If there is one constant in life, it is that no position exists that does not have a retinue of people bellyaching against it.

[Srecko Sostar]

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh give me a break!

... each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable." :)))

[xero]

JWI - "I have many things yet to tell you, but you can't bear them at present."

Certainly there was an operation of error w/regard to allowing the people in the 1st century to imagine many things. Take the apostle John. Many thought he would never die. Sure things changed, but there was no divine intervention to quell that thinking. Many no doubt sped up their evangelizing as a result of imagining the whole thing would be wrapped up in their own lifetime.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:12 AM, JW Insider said:

(Hebrews 3:5, 6) . . .Now Moses was faithful as an attendant in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ was faithful as a son over God’s house. We are His house if, indeed, we hold on firmly to our freeness of speech . . .

Effectively, we are all the corporation, the body. Even the least among us. As a body, or organization, we belong to one another.

(Romans 12:3-5)  so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but individually we are members belonging to one another.

What gross misuse of scripture. You are here pretending that the whole CCJW / JW Org ARE the Body of Christ by deliberately misusing scripture.   That is sick in the worse possible way. 

You people really do not understand that the scriptures were written for the True Anointed. 

On 4/13/2021 at 2:12 AM, JW Insider said:

1 Corinthians 12:22-27) . . .On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, ²³ and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, ²⁴ . . . ²⁵ so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. ²⁶ If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; . . .

This means the Body of Christ, NOT the Organisation.  No division in Christ's body of 144,000. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:31 AM, JW Insider said:

I know that sincere Watchtower writers have written that it was a good thing that the Watchtower made the past mistake about Romans 13. Because it supposedly made us less respectful of secular authorities at a time when we needed to be less respectful, or it made it easier for us to stand up to draft issues, or something like that. And, of course, similar rationales were claimed for the failures of 1914, 1918, 1925 and have been tried for the 1975 issues, too: that it was a test and a filter, etc. We can probably expect similar things to be said about the overlapping groups in "this generation," too, if time allows.

Yep. Seriously. Are you saying that God through Christ made the Watchtower leaders deliberately tell lies to test people's faith in ???? whom ?  

So what exactly were JWs to think about ALL the failures ?  You are just having a laugh here.  You know it was the Watchtower leaders that were just putting their own interpretation on scripture because they were not, and are not, inspired by God's Holy Spirit. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:31 AM, JW Insider said:

Of course, the answer was that proposing such a change could get you DF'd. But they also said that because many Witnesses think of the chronology as a "core" doctrine, as a foundation, that it's too big of a change. One brother always said that if you pull this out from under them, they don't have enough to fall back upon.

Oh this is lovely  .  Basically saying "We have to continue to tell lies otherwise we loose the congregation". 

A core doctrine that is a deliberate lie.  Oh they of little faith. 

Didn't it ever come to mind about Jesus saying "Unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh ...... "  Shock happens, but when faith is strong then the faithful remain. 

Worried about being d/fed. Worrying about the 'flock' not having enough to 'fall back on'.  Absolutely no faith what so ever. 

[xero]

1 John 5:7-8 is also blocked.

[Pudgy]

I remember back in the Old Testament how Jehovah tolerated a GREAT DEAL of error with his people .... until it reached a certain unrecoverable breaking point. Jehovah is our God, not because he needs to be worshiped, but that by doing so we all get on the same channel, and his favorite project (that we know about) prospers and does well.

If we had pet hamsters or gerbils, we would not cut off their heads because they constantly poop and pee in their enclosures.

(... insert many other profound related observations below: )