Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?

[HollyW]

On 7/30/2016 at 1:11 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

This maybe a common dictionary definition, but is just inadequate when dealing with the biblical concept. 

This is clear, for example, when looking at Heb 2:10; Heb 5:9 relating to Jesus.

Also, in considering the application of Jesus words at Matt 5:48 and Matt 19:21.

So any argumentation using this rather narrow English definition in discussing the biblical concept is, quite simply,.....flawed.

How about the WTS definition, you don't consider it to be flawed, do you?

[w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone,perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!  

[Witness]

14 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Remember, by your own words, you believe you have that undertaking and responsibility. The question is? Who appointed you, to say the Governing Body cannot be considered to be appointed by the Holy Spirit even by your biblical quotations, that’s exactly what they follow.

If you read my previous posts, you will see that I believe they are genuine anointed ones, but who have forsaken the vine of Christ, as prophesied, and which can happen to any anointed one who chooses man's words over God's.  It would be foolish of us to think this couldn’t happen.  God’s standards of righteousness hold true above any of man’s, no matter how “nice” they appear. Matt 23:38; Luke 23:45; Hosea 1:9; Matt 23:1-39 While those in the organization continue to look at it (John 4:21; Acts 7:49) as directed in righteousness through the GB, truth escapes them.  1 Cor 4:8; 1 John 2:15; Matt 4:8; James 1:27

“You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall (Rev 8:10,11) from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked” 2 Pet 3:17

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.  You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?  Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.  A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matt 7:15-20

Good fruit is sourced in Holy Spirit, which is sourced in Christ and the Father.  Since the Father is unchanging, the good fruit we are to choose, would not change skins according to the teachings of men.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’  And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23 (2 Thess 2:8-12)

 ^“So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.   If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.  He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.”  John 7:16-18

‘The Faithful Slave’ Passes the Test!  W 04/3/1

“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:  ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”  Matt 15:7-9

 ^“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to beaccursed!”  Gal 1:8

^“See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled”  Heb 12:15

This “root of bitterness”, teachings (waters) that defiles many, is prominent in the last days, and found among God’s own people.

"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter." (Rev.8:10,11)

"Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says concerning the prophets: "I will make them eat bitter food and drink wormwood water, because from the prophets of Jerusalem ungodliness has spread throughout the land." (Jer.23:15)

“so that there will not be among you a man or woman, or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of those nations (the organization as one’s salvation); that there will not be among you a root bearing poisonous fruit and wormwood.”  Deut 29:18

 ^“that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us,(from genuine anointed ones) to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless theapostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction”  2 Thess 2:2,3

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” 1 Tim 4:1

“And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast (organization) and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;  for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings (Rev 1:6) of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (“Behold,I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)  Rev 16:13-15

^“ He was granted power to give breath (compare to John 20:22) to the image of the beast, (spirit-directed) that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (disfellowshiped for rejecting the organization as salvation)  He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.  Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.  (three unclean spirits) http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2015/02/666-144000.html

Rev 11:12;  Luke 21:24; Dan 8:9-14; Heb 10:29; Matt 24:15-28

By the way, Geoffrey Jackson’s words that the GB are “fellow workers” are very different from the teachings in the Watchtower. (“fellow” meaning “a person in the same position” Oxford Dict.)

“By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.” (w09 11/15 p. 14 par. 5 Treasure Your Place in the Congregation)

How different this sounds from Christ’s admonishment to discern the good fruit, as well as our example of the Beroeans…

“Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.  Acts 17:11

“If anyone teaches a different doctrine  (“may we never challenge”) and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,  he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.” 1 Tim 6:3-5

“But those who desire to be rich (1Cor 4:8) fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.  For the love of money (Matt 6:24) is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.” 1 Tim 6:9,10 (Rev 8:11; Amos 8:11; Rev 18:4-8)

God's standards have become quite hazy through the misguidance of men. Striving to get in through the narrow gate is not by residing in a proposed ark of safety; hand crafted, not by God, but at the will of men.  It is a constant exertion of clinging to Christ amid a corrupt world and its passions.  But it can be done if we listen to his voice.  Rev 3:18; 18:4-8

“Likewise, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people, who prophesy out of their own heart; prophesy against them, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Woe to the women (New Covenant anointed) who sew magic charms on their sleeves and make veils for the heads of people of every height to hunt souls! Will you hunt the souls of My people, and keep yourselves alive?  And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”

 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against your magic charms by which you hunt souls there like birds. I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, the souls you hunt like birds.  I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall no longer be as prey in your hand. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.

 “Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life. Therefore you shall no longer envision futility nor practice divination; for I will deliver My people out of your hand, and you shall know that I am the Lord.”’”  Ezek 13:17-23

 

 

 

 

[JWTheologian]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If you read my previous posts, you will see that I believe they are genuine anointed ones, but who have forsaken the vine of Christ, as prophesied, and which can happen to any anointed one who chooses man's words over God's. 

Of course they are anointed. And If you read my previous post. The idea that they are guided by men, That’s simply conjecture and speculation in your part. YOUR personal opinion of something you know nothing about but wish to ridicule because of false applications of scripture by misleading the understanding of someone else’s writing. You have placed your trust on "MAN", an intent ancient scribes most likely attempted to achieve by redefining the original works or by error.

The Governing Body only trust on God’s Holy Spirit to guide them. So with that. You are no different than the Pharisees of old that Christ spoke of. You people that pretend to know the bible don’t practice in the correct manor the spirit of the bible. Why? Because you are trusting in your own opinion of thinking you know scripture instead of allowing the Holy Spirit guide you to see how wrong you have been for whatever time, you decided to let Satan condemn your soul into hating the WTS.

Matthew 23:3 Context: Woes to Scribes and Pharisees

3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

 

So everything that you think your applying against the GB actually applies to you. How, by thinking the Holy Bible is man’s work, and NOT the inspired word of God. Satan has definitely blinded you.

2 Corinthians 4:4 Context: The Light of the Gospel

4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

29 ARC Stewart: Q. You have said that the Governing Body presently has
30 seven members. How is it determined how many members there
31 will be from time to time?
32 GB Jackson: A. There can be any number of members on the Governing
33 Body. In the past few decades ‐ for example, when I was
34 appointed on the Governing Body, there were 12 of us.
35 I believe the number has been 18 at one stage. But the
36 qualifications of a member for the Governing Body ‐ it
37 involves someone who is considered an anointed Witness, who
38 has worked in scriptural, with a scriptural background,
39 either as a missionary or a full‐time servant for many
40 years, and is able to fulfil the role of the Governing
41 Body, which is, may I state, a group, a spiritual group of
42 men who are the guardians of our doctrine, and as guardians
43 of the doctrine, look at things that need to be decided
44 based on our doctrines, which are based on the constitution
45 of the Bible.

20 ARC Stewart Q. And your reference to your constitution, I understand
21 by the way in which you raised the Bible as you said that,
22 you were referring to the Bible?
23 GB Jackson: A. The Bible is our constitution, yes.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, JWTheologian said:

The idea that they are guided by men, That’s simply conjecture and speculation in your part.

I am amazed, JWT, that you quote Jackson from the Australian Royal Commission’s peer into over 1000 known child abuse cases hidden for years by the organization (who knows how many more);  child abuse that the WT has concealed in many other countries but are now being exposed, while those who desire to serve God whole souled, who realize Christ is our salvation, are disfellowshiped -  marked as spiritually dead.

“And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”  Ezek 13:19

 

 

[JWTheologian]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I am amazed, JWT, that you quote Jackson from the Australian Royal Commission’s peer into over 1000 known child abuse cases hidden for years by the organization (who knows how many more);  child abuse that the WT has concealed in many other countries but are now being exposed, while those who desire to serve God whole souled, who realize Christ is our salvation, are disfellowshiped -  marked as spiritually dead.

And yet, another example of your ignorance. But continue preaching your FALSE Doctrine, since you can’t compete and have no real knowledge of scripture. I expect you to embellish in partisan rhetoric.

If you can only see the example of a GB train of thought, into foolishness, I can’t help that.

[Shiwiii]

On 7/30/2016 at 9:42 AM, HollyW said:

The WTS definition of perfect in this instance is to "meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually."

[w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!  

that very well may be their position, but the fact of the matter is that perfection has no flaw.

A perfect puzzle piece fits without gap. It fits the purpose it was designed for, but in no way is it perfect. It is made of cardboard and when wet it deteriorates. I can accept the application of something being a perfect fit, but to assign perfection as a whole to Adam and Eve is wrong. They were designed to perfectly fit the environment God created for them, but they themselves were not "perfect, without flaw or blemish" or they would have never sinned. The perfection that one attains at the time of God's calling to Himself, is perfection in the absolute sense. This is not attainable while we are still here on Earth and absent from the Lord. 

[JWTheologian]

7 hours ago, HollyW said:

[w06 5/15 p.6] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone,perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5) How this and the Paradise earth will glorify Jehovah!  

It would seem the article in the Watchtower is correct with it's biblical description of SIN!!!!!

1 John 2:2 Context: Jesus Our Advocate

2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Matthew Henry Commentary

2:1,2 When have an Advocate with the Father; one who has undertaken, and is fully able, to plead in behalf of every one who applies for pardon and salvation in his name, depending on his pleading for them. He is Jesus, the Saviour, and Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed. He alone is the Righteous One, who received his nature pure from sin, and as our Surety perfectly obeyed the law of God, and so fulfilled all righteousness. All men, in every land, and through successive generations, are invited to come to God through this all-sufficient atonement, and by this new and living way. The gospel, when rightly understood and received, sets the heart against all sin, and stops the allowed practice of it; at the same time, it gives blessed relief to the wounded consciences of those who have sinned.

Revelation 21:3 Context: A New Heaven and a New Earth

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

 

Matthew Henry Commentary

21:1-8 The new heaven and the new earth will not be separate from each other; the earth of the saints, their glorified, bodies, will be heavenly. The old world, with all its troubles and tumults, will have passed away. There will be no sea; this aptly represents freedom from conflicting passions, temptations, troubles, changes, and alarms; from whatever can divide or interrupt the communion of saints. This new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, the church triumphant. Its blessedness came wholly from God, and depends on him. The presence of God with his people in heaven, will not be interrupt as it is on earth, he will dwell with them continually. All effects of former trouble shall be done away. They have often been in tears, by reason of sin, of affliction, of the calamities of the church; but no signs, no remembrance of former sorrows shall remain. Christ makes all things new. If we are willing and desirous that the gracious Redeemer should make all things new in order hearts and nature, he will make all things new in respect of our situation, till he has brought us to enjoy complete happiness. See the certainty of the promise. God gives his titles, Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, as a pledge for the full performance. Sensual and sinful pleasures are muddy and poisoned waters; and the best earthly comforts are like the scanty supplies of a cistern; when idolized, they become broken cisterns, and yield only vexation. But the joys which Christ imparts are like waters springing from a fountain, pure, refreshing, abundant, and eternal. The sanctifying consolations of the Holy Spirit prepare for heavenly happiness; they are streams which flow for us in the wilderness. The fearful durst not meet the difficulties of religion, their slavish fear came from their unbelief; but those who were so dastardly as not to dare to take up the cross of Christ, were yet so desperate as to run into abominable wickedness. The agonies and terrors of the first death will lead to the far greater terrors and agonies of eternal death.

Revelation 20:5 Context: Satan Bound

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Matthew Henry Commentary

20:4-6 Here is an account of the reign of the saints, for the same space of time as Satan is bound. Those who suffer with Christ, shall reign with him in his spiritual and heavenly kingdom, in conformity to him in his wisdom, righteousness, and holiness: this is called the first resurrection, with which none but those who serve Christ, and suffer for him, shall be favoured. The happiness of these servants of God is declared. None can be blessed but those that are holy; and all that are holy shall be blessed. We know something thing of what the first death is, and it is very awful; but we know not what this second death is. It must be much more dreadful; it is the death of the soul, eternal separation from God. May we never know what it is: those who have been made partakers of a spiritual resurrection, are saved from the power of the second death. We may expect that a thousand years will follow the destruction of the antichristian, idolatrous, persecuting powers, during which pure Christianity, in doctrine, worship, and holiness, will be made known over all the earth. By the all-powerful working of the Holy Spirit, fallen man will be new-created; and faith and holiness will as certainly prevail, as unbelief and unholiness now do. We may easily perceive what a variety of dreadful pains, diseases, and other calamities would cease, if all men were true and consistent Christians. All the evils of public and private contests would be ended, and happiness of every kind largely increased. Every man would try to lighten suffering, instead of adding to the sorrows around him. It is our duty to pray for the promised glorious days, and to do everything in our public and private stations which can prepare for them.

Ezekiel 28:15 Context: A Lament over the King of Tyre

15"You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

The definition of perfection means “lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind”. From a Christian perspective, the definition of perfection means being without sin.

Adam and Eve must have been created with the power of choice, or God would not have given them a command and punished them for disobeying it. No one, not even Eve who was deceived by Satan, Judas of whom it is said that “Satan entered into him” (Jn:13:27), or Ananias and Sapphira whose hearts “Satan filled...to lie to the Holy Ghost” (Acts:5:3) can blame his or her sin on the devil; nor does God ever tempt man to sin (Jas 1:13), much less cause anyone to sin. All are without excuse.

Physically Definition: Physical, bodily, corporeal, corporal agree in pertaining to the body. Physical indicates connected with, pertaining to, the animal or human body as a material organism: physical strength, exercise. Bodily means belonging to, concerned with, the human body as distinct from the mind or spirit: bodily pain or suffering.

Question: Can a person be perfect, if it’s body is aging and diseased?

 

Mentally Definition: 1. Of or relating to the mind; intellectual: mental powers.

2. Executed or performed by the mind; existing in the mind: mental images of happy times.

3. a. Slang Emotionally upset; crazed: got mental when he saw the dent in his new car.

    b. Offensive Slang Mentally ill or intellectually impaired.

    c. Often Offensive Intended for people with mental illness or intellectual impairment.

Question: Can a person be perfect, if it’s thoughts are impure by lust, sex, drugs…etc.

 

Morally Definition: 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of right or wrong of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.

 

2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.

3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.

4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.

5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

n.

1. The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.

2. A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim: likes to follow the moral "To each, his own."

3. morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

Question: Can a person be perfect, if it’s thoughts are to lie, cheat, deceit, etc.

Spiritual Definition: of or relating to a person's spirit

: of or relating to religion or religious beliefs

: having similar values and ideas: related or joined in spirit

Question: Can a person be perfect, if it’s NOT willing to obey Gods Commands, or accept the word of Christ that scripture is indeed the inspired word of GOD?

So by how’s moral standards is Christ referring to? Man’s with his own topical definition or God’s through the inspired word of God. True and Honest Christians should know the answer.

 

 

[Shiwiii]

On 7/30/2016 at 1:11 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

This maybe a common dictionary definition, but is just inadequate when dealing with the biblical concept. 

This is clear, for example, when looking at Heb 2:10; Heb 5:9 relating to Jesus.

Also, in considering the application of Jesus words at Matt 5:48 and Matt 19:21.

So any argumentation using this rather narrow English definition in discussing the biblical concept is, quite simply,.....flawed.

Your first two examples are speaking of Jesus, and I think we both agree that Jesus was perfect. Perfect in the purest form, without flaw or blemish. The second two examples are applied to men, however the difference here is that we as man can never attain perfection on our own merit. Jesus was not saying that if you sell all of your things and give it to the poor you will be perfect. Not at all, what He was saying was in your heart strive to help and bless others. Also, that in which you sacrifice, which has value here on Earth, to help others is an exchange for the blessings you will receive in Heaven. Not because you gave them up, but rather your hearts desire for others. This is God's love and that was what Jesus was saying in Matt 5:48, strive to have the same love for others as God has for you. We can never make this happen on our own, because we all fall short of the glory of God. Do you really believe that Jesus was saying we could actually be perfect here and now, just as the Father is? 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

And yet, another example of your ignorance. But continue preaching your FALSE Doctrine, since you can’t compete and have no real knowledge of scripture. I expect you to embellish in partisan rhetoric.

 

JWT,

I have gone through all of your posts and, correct me if I am wrong, but I found only one possible quote from the Watchtower.  I say possible because there was no reference to the article.  Instead, I see you rely on the Matthew Henry Commentary consistently. Is he a JW?

I find this rather interesting, since you heavily support the GB but don’t rely on their words. Pondering on this brings the thought that others actually write the articles for the GB’s approval. This also shows that the GB no longer has connection with the vine of Christ.  Hmmm.  Mal 2:7; Heb 13:15; 1 John 2:27; John 15:4; 8:32; 1 John 1:6

In reality, this well supports an alternate priesthood feeding the sheep, other than the beloved GB.  Num 16:10; 2 Chron 13:9; Ezek 44:6-9; 2 Thess 2:4; Dan 11:31; Matt 24:15  

It is futile to go on bantering back and forth, JWT.  As you attack my person continually, it shows me that truly, love is not found in the organization by most; although, there are exceptions among JWs on this forum. Since you have no idea just how important it is for JWs to wake up; and thinking I am here because of hate for my own brothers and sisters, I am saddened to think that when Christ visibly arrives, those of the majority, whether part of the Body of Christ or all sheep, will still be found protecting their great mountainlike organization.

Samaria's king shall perish
    like a twig on the face of the waters.
⁸ The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel,
    shall be destroyed.
Thorn and thistle shall grow up
    on their altars,
and they shall say to the mountains, “Cover us,”
    and to the hills, “Fall on us.”  Hos 10:7,8

 ^“But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.  For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’  Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’  For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”  Luke 23:28-30

“Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,  for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”  Rev 6:15-17

“Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!’”  Zech 4:7

“The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.  A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.”  Rev 8:8,9

“The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk,  nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”  Rev 9:20,21

 

[JWTheologian]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

It is futile to go on bantering back and forth, JWT.  As you attack my person continually, it shows me that truly, love is not found in the organization by most; although, there are exceptions among JWs on this forum. Since you have no idea just how important it is for JWs to wake up; and thinking I am here because of hate for my own brothers and sisters, I am saddened to think that when Christ visibly arrives, those of the majority, whether part of the Body of Christ or all sheep, will still be found protecting their great mountainlike organization.

It is futile to go on bantering back and forth, JWT.  As you attack my person continually, it shows me that truly, love is not found in the organization by most Am I the organization or just an individual as you.; although, there are exceptions among JWs on this forum. Unfortunately, there are some JW’s here blinded by Satan and don’t defend the truth as needed. Since you have no idea just how important it is for JWs to wake up; I actually do consider that. And the reasoning behind interjecting the truth to a misleading site. and thinking I am here because of hate for my own brothers and sisters, is it out of love you mislead these people, or is it just a personal gratification as others have to criticize and organization you have yet to understand. I am saddened to think that when Christ visibly arrives, once again, then you are misleading the public with such misapplication of bible truth. You continue to claim the bible flawed and Contradictory, when in reality it’s you. those of the majority, whether part of the Body of Christ or all sheep, will still be found protecting their great mountain like organization. And yet contrary to your personal opinion? the Governing Body of Jehovah’s witnesses by obeying our constitution the BIBLE shepherd the flock as instructed by the Head of the Congregation (Church) Jesus Christ.

 

Well I can’t base myself on what publications I use. If I use my own, then people complain that I am biased. If I use other publication to illustrate the similarities that other Christian authors have, people complain I am bias and not willing to defend the WTS. So those words mean nothing to me.

Now, you complain that I have treated you harshly with a clear and concise form. You however, want to hide your criticism through soft medaphors, which amount to the same thing. So those words mean nothing to me.

You accuse me of hating you, when I don’t even know you. I criticize your ideology which is different than taking a personal stance on 7 men, you do not know, since they haven’t opinionated on your ideology to criticize it. So, that makes it a one-sided argument with them, And that’s the difference. So those words mean nothing to me.

When I debated with a Catholic Cardinal. I argued his stance on religion, NOT the POPES.I didn’t revert to Catholic Publications, it was one on one with scripture. Get the idea!!!

Law of Conscience. The Bible shows this results from persons having ‘the law written in their hearts.’ Those not under a direct law from God, such as the Law given through Moses, are shown to be “a law to themselves,” for their consciences cause them to be “accused or even excused” in their own thoughts. (Ro 2:14, 15) Many just laws in pagan societies reflect this conscience, originally placed in their forefather Adam and passed down through Noah. —See CONSCIENCE.

At 1 Corinthians 8:7 the apostle Paul says that lack of accurate Christian knowledge could result in a weak conscience. Conscience can be a good guide or a poor one, depending upon the knowledge and training of the individual. (1Ti 1:5; Heb 5:14) One’s conscience can be defiled and, therefore, can mislead. (Tit 1:15) Some, by constantly going contrary to conscience, cause it to become like insensitive scar tissue, and consequently no safe guide to follow. —1Ti 4:1, 2. [IsV2 pp.220-221

 

John 18:36 Context: Jesus Before Pilate

36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, my servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, my kingdom is not of this realm.

Luke 8:10 Context: The Parable of the Sower

10He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘Though seeing they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.

John 8:44-45 context: The Children of the Devil

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

[HollyW]

14 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

that very well may be their position, but the fact of the matter is that perfection has no flaw.

A perfect puzzle piece fits without gap. It fits the purpose it was designed for, but in no way is it perfect. It is made of cardboard and when wet it deteriorates. I can accept the application of something being a perfect fit, but to assign perfection as a whole to Adam and Eve is wrong. They were designed to perfectly fit the environment God created for them, but they themselves were not "perfect, without flaw or blemish" or they would have never sinned. The perfection that one attains at the time of God's calling to Himself, is perfection in the absolute sense. This is not attainable while we are still here on Earth and absent from the Lord. 

It's kind of funny that the WTS has Adam and Jesus being equal (before Adam sinned) yet it's only the 144,000 who become like Jesus while everyone else becomes like Adam.

With perfection, JWs are to view it in two ways: absolute and relative---assigning absolute perfection only to the Father while relative perfection is what anyone and anything else have.  Relative perfection is along the lines of what Eoin Joyce has been posting.....so you probably don't agree on the perfection of Jesus.

[Shiwiii]

You're probably right. Yes it is funny that they only believe that the 144k get the perfection like Jesus and the rest get perfection like Adam, but yet consider them equally perfect prior to Adam's sin.

You know this word "perfect" and the jw meaning, fits perfectly in the B.I.T.E. model under the thought control. To most everyone the word means without flaw, unless it is spoken of in context to mean otherwise. But under thought control, they can freely switch it to whatever suits the need at the time and what works best for the group. This keeps the average group member in a cocoon of sorts and only those who are in the cocoon know what the words mean to them.