Jump to content
The World News Media

Musing on prayer


xero

Recommended Posts

  • Member
38 minutes ago, Anna said:

I must admit I never thought of thinking of God as grandfather 🤔🥴

I had, but like when Jesus said "When you've seen me, you've seen the father", I think he's saying that you can't really get much closer as a human to understanding Jehovah as limited as you are ("you don't get the earthly things, how could you get the heavenly things"?). So there's an awe and wonder that can never cease when it comes to Jehovah, but when it comes to a created being, you can sort of wrap your mind around that. Being noncontingent is something I'll never (nor can I by dint of my contingency) get. A timeless being who created time and space....I read a book a couple of years ago by Douglas Hofstadter - "Surfaces and Essences" where he argues that it's analogies all the way up and all the way down. You can't understand anything except by way of analogy. But for an analogy to begin, it has to be perceived, which means you have to have the sense organs and the brain (more analogical devices) designed by Jehovah to process the "external world" (whether this is physical or spiritual) and interactively build on the grammar of repetitive experience to be able to understand the external vs the internal. But no matter what as individuals we have limits (unless or until Jehovah opens more doors to our perceptions).

So grandfather may be an analogy, but as analogies go, it's one of them.

Reminds me of a brother who used the phrase "in connection with" when he wasn't making the connections. I joked "Bob could say "Jehovah God in connection with the Garden of Eden", stop there and look at the audience as if there was some point he'd just made, when he'd made none - he simply created a set, Let X be the set of (Jehovah, Garden of Eden}. That tells me nothing.

So analogies are impossible to avoid, but having an analogy isn't the same thing as having the truth and as the scriptures say "the reality belongs to the Christ". (if I'm remembering that right)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Views 2.6k
  • Replies 68
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The guy gets smarter by the second. I actually didn’t know that it was possible to block on this forum. 

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me  for anything in my name, and I will do it."  John 14:13,14  NIV Do you have a copy o

I've been feeling weird of late w/regard to prayers. I'm praying, like Jesus told me, to the Father. I ask him and talk to him on the basis of Jesus and his office as high priest and king, however if

Posted Images

  • Member
1 hour ago, xero said:

But no matter what as individuals we have limits (unless or until Jehovah opens more doors to our perceptions).

1.)   About 350 years ago, Sir Isaac Newton knew that there were two classes ... those of the "heavenly hope", and those of the "great crowd".

2.) Jehovah's Witnesses figured it out about 86 years ago.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
2 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes and no. You have to be approved to join the JW Only club first in order to read the contents and comment. 

Approved? No "transparency" than? As people today would say. You know, today is modern to be "transparent"  :) 

But, let us go to old wording and same meaning: "Be honest in all things" Heb 13:18 ... and let people know what are you speaking and thinking and doing.  Let it be known for all to see, without limit.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who is "too much", TTH ?

The one who I said. She is too much. She defines the expression “waterless cloud,” drowning everyone in gallons of verse, but then not being guided by them.

Someone says, “but I want to talk to Jesus.” Rather than be guided by scripture which, strangely or not, seems to make no allowance for it, she spins a gooey human analogy. You can speak to anyone you want, she says (and you join her) Sometimes a child has to speak with daddy, sometimes mommy, sometimes grandpa. It’s enough to make a guy heave. 

Go with the scriptures. If they seem counterintuitive, as they might in this case, see if you can get your heart and head around how they still are the arrangement and still for the best. Don’t say, Well I want to talk to Jesus, and to say I shouldn’t is unloving, and we know that God is not unloving so that must mean I can talk to Jesus whenever I want.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
56 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The one who I said. She is too much. She defines the expression “waterless cloud,” drowning everyone in gallons of verse, but then not being guided by them.

Someone says, “but I want to talk to Jesus.” Rather than be guided by scripture which, strangely or not, seems to make no allowance for it, she spins a gooey human analogy. You can speak to anyone you want, she says (and you join her) Sometimes a child has to speak with daddy, sometimes mommy, sometimes grandpa. It’s enough to make a guy heave. 

Go with the scriptures. If they seem counterintuitive, as they might in this case, see if you can get your heart and head around how they still are the arrangement and still for the best. Don’t say, Well I want to talk to Jesus, and to say I shouldn’t is unloving, and we know that God is not unloving so that must mean I can talk to Jesus whenever I want.

 

You have to admit, though that if you think of Jesus as a High Priest and you going to him with a sacrifice to offer on your behalf to Jehovah, you'd make eye contact and speak to him. I mean it's not like he's a guard at Buckingham Palace. :) It also says he's a high priest who isn't unaware of our own failings, so maybe the need for some chattiness is understandable too. I'm not really worried about what any other human has to say about all this. Like somehow I'm asking any human for permission on any of this - quite frankly I'm not. I also know that people are going to do what they're going to do no matter what I say or don't say. I just know that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence when it comes to prayer.  (Plus any reading of Hebrews would lead one to imagine that there would be some communication w/Jesus for him to "sympathize with us" as a "high priest" on our behalf w/Jehovah. Still in public I'll pick one or two things I feel the congregation can say amen to and get off the platform and not ramble on like some pharisee...BUT when I'm in my private chamber....different matter I may ramble.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
20 minutes ago, xero said:

BUT when I'm in my private chamber....different matter I may ramble.)

Yeah—I don’t really have a problem with it, though it’s not occurred to me to do it myself. We train our conscience by Bible principles and then in accord with our best judgment use it as our guide. 

It reminds me a little of a friend whose teenage son wanted to join the high-school golf team. He knew his boy, he knew the specifics, but he also knew that others would stampede him with their “concern” over whether this was a good course. “Look just do it,” he told the kid, “and don’t blow a trumpet over it.” 

It is one of those foibles that happens in any collection of humans. You never quite know the line between genuine godly counsel and minding your own business. You could rail against it as “control” or “hypocrisy” or whatever the malcontents might do here, but it is just human relations that must be navigated anywhere, a bit more intense here because we are, as one circuit overseer put it, one large, united, productive, happy, somewhat dysfunctional family. Aren’t we all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Approved? No "transparency" than? As people today would say. You know, today is modern to be "transparent"  :) 

But, let us go to old wording and same meaning: "Be honest in all things" Heb 13:18 ... and let people know what are you speaking and thinking and doing.  Let it be known for all to see, without limit.

 

Nothing to do with not being transparent. It's quite normal if someone wants to be part of a club,  they have to meet club rules. The JW only club is just that: for JWs only. Nothing dishonest or secretive about that. The scripure you quote applies to relationships and interactions with people, even then, the scripture doesn't mean you have to indiscriminately tell everyone everything. You have examples in the Bible where faithful servants of God did not say everything they knew. There is a time to speak, and a time to be quiet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
40 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yeah—I don’t really have a problem with it, though it’s not occurred to me to do it myself. We train our conscience by Bible principles and then in accord with our best judgment use it as our guide. 

It reminds me a little of a friend whose teenage son wanted to join the high-school golf team. He knew his boy, he knew the specifics, but he also knew that others would stampede him with their “concern” over whether this was a good course. “Look just do it,” he told the kid, “and don’t blow a trumpet over it.” 

It is one of those foibles that happens in any collection of humans. You never quite know the line between genuine godly counsel and minding your own business. You could rail against it as “control” or “hypocrisy” or whatever the malcontents might do here, but it is just human relations that must be navigated anywhere, a bit more intense here because we are, as one circuit overseer put it, one large, united, productive, happy, somewhat dysfunctional family. Aren’t we all?

But unfortunately (I've been told I have a strong personality) I've discovered that it's easy to conclude that one's right on a given matter because he or she has argued a point w/apparent success. Could be I've just gotten better at arguing (which is not unsurprising if you've spent thousands and thousands of hours in the ministry and streetwork).

There's a book entitled "Why Smart People Believe Stupid Things" (I think that's the title) and the bottom line is that they're better at verbal defense.

Reminds me of this brother who was practically mute, but who could fix anything three dimensional. People would make fun of Charlie, but Charlie was smart in a useful way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
21 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why I would choose to block one villain on this forum, and not another, I don’t know. They all equally want the downfall of Jehovah’s organization.

I can't be a villain then as I don't particularly want the downfall of the JW Org, even though it's not Almighty God's organisation at this moment in time.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Someone says, “but I want to talk to Jesus.” Rather than be guided by scripture which, strangely or not, seems to make no allowance for it,

Where is the scripture that makes no allowance for it?

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yeah—I don’t really have a problem with it, though it’s not occurred to me to do it myself.

NOW you don't have a problem with it?  Even though apparently there is no scripture that makes allowance for it?

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It’s enough to make a guy heave. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites





  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Popular Contributors

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • It appears to me that this is a key aspect of the 2030 initiative ideology. While the Rothschilds were indeed influential individuals who were able to sway governments, much like present-day billionaires, the true impetus for change stems from the omnipotent forces (Satan) shaping our world. In this case, there is a false God of this world. However, what drives action within a political framework? Power! What is unfolding before our eyes in today's world? The relentless struggle for power. The overwhelming tide of people rising. We cannot underestimate the direct and sinister influence of Satan in all of this. However, it is up to individuals to decide how they choose to worship God. Satanism, as a form of religion, cannot be regarded as a true religion. Consequently, just as ancient practices of child sacrifice had a place in God's world, such sacrifices would never be accepted by the True God of our universe. Despite the promising 2030 initiative for those involved, it is unfortunately disintegrating due to the actions of certain individuals in positions of authority. A recent incident serves as a glaring example, involving a conflict between peaceful Muslims and a Jewish representative that unfolded just this week. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/11/us-delegation-saudi-arabia-kippah?ref=upstract.com Saudi Arabia was among the countries that agreed to the initiative signed by approximately 179 nations in or around 1994. However, this initiative is now being undermined by the devil himself, who is sowing discord among the delegates due to the ongoing Jewish-Hamas (Palestine) conflict. Fostering antisemitism. What kind of sacrifice does Satan accept with the death of babies and children in places like Gaza, Ukraine, and other conflicts around the world, whether in the past or present, that God wouldn't? Whatever personal experiences we may have had with well-known individuals, true Christians understand that current events were foretold long ago, and nothing can prevent them from unfolding. What we are witnessing is the result of Satan's wrath upon humanity, as was predicted. A true religion will not involve itself in the politics of this world, as it is aware of the many detrimental factors associated with such engagement. It understands the true intentions of Satan for this world and wisely chooses to stay unaffected by them.
    • This idea that Satan can put Jews in power implies that God doesn't want Jews in power. But that would also imply that God only wants "Christians" including Hitler, Biden, Pol Pot, Chiang Kai-Shek, etc. 
    • @Mic Drop, I don't buy it. I watched the movie. It has all the hallmarks of the anti-semitic tropes that began to rise precipitously on social media during the last few years - pre-current-Gaza-war. And it has similarities to the same anti-semitic tropes that began to rise in Europe in the 900's to 1100's. It was back in the 500s AD/CE that many Khazars failed to take or keep land they fought for around what's now Ukraine and southern Russia. Khazars with a view to regaining power were still being driven out into the 900's. And therefore they migrated to what's now called Eastern Europe. It's also true that many of their groups converted to Judaism after settling in Eastern Europe. It's possibly also true that they could be hired as mercenaries even after their own designs on empire had dwindled.  But I think the film takes advantage of the fact that so few historical records have ever been considered reliable by the West when it comes to these regions. So it's easy to fill the vacuum with some very old antisemitic claims, fables, rumors, etc..  The mention of Eisenhower in the movie was kind of a giveaway, too. It's like, Oh NO! The United States had a Jew in power once. How on earth could THAT have happened? Could it be . . . SATAN??" Trying to tie a connection back to Babylonian Child Sacrifice Black Magick, Secret Satanism, and Baal worship has long been a trope for those who need to think that no Jews like the Rothschilds and Eisenhowers (????) etc would not have been able to get into power in otherwise "Christian" nations without help from Satan.    Does child sacrifice actually work to gain power?? Does drinking blood? Does pedophilia??? (also mentioned in the movie) Yes, it's an evil world and many people have evil ideologies based on greed and lust and ego. But how exactly does child sacrifice or pedophilia or drinking blood produce a more powerful nation or cabal of some kind? To me that's a giveaway that the authors know that the appeal will be to people who don't really care about actual historical evidence. Also, the author(s) of the video proved that they have not done much homework, but are just trying to fill that supposed knowledge gap by grasping at old paranoid and prejudicial premises. (BTW, my mother and grandmother, in 1941 and 1942, sat next to Dwight Eisenhower's mother at an assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Eisenhower family had been involved in a couple of "Christian" religions and a couple of them associated with IBSA and JWs for many years.)
  • Members

    • Pudgy

      Pudgy 2,365

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • JW Insider

      JW Insider 9,619

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
  • Recent Status Updates

  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      65.4k
    • Total Posts
      158.6k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      17,648
    • Most Online
      1,592

    Newest Member
    Miracle Pete
    Joined
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.