"We must obey God as ruler rather than men."

[Evacuated]

2 minutes ago, Witness said:

Paul and the apostles are our examples as to how this is accomplished

Only?

[JW Insider]

On 4/7/2017 at 7:16 PM, Bible Speaks said:

Do you see anything in my picture of concern? Thank you ???

I like the pictures and I like the scriptures. They usually go together well, as this one does.

I am concerned about the content of the "contributed" article however. If that article had been contributed to the Watchtower for publication, it would have been thrown out on the grounds of "apostasy." It has some ideas in it that are well worth discussing, and I think that others have brought up these ideas here already. But when an idea is brought up for discussion, we should know the source, so as not to be confused. There is nothing wrong with a Bible-based discussion of any ideas, even apostate ideas. After all, several of the things we now believe were once considered to be "apostasy."

The problem is that people should be aware when something is written in a way that it provides a basis for a potentially controversial discussion. It shouldn't be styled in a way that just makes a statement without any warning that this could be controversial. Otherwise, it can give the impression that it was intended to "trick" people into believing it is what all of us already believe.

I suspect, @Bible Speaks, that you didn't realize the apparently "apostate" points in the article. And it's possible they were worded that way accidentally. As you probably were not aware, I will try to summarize the way this article would have likely been read by a Watchtower editor. I'll flag some points in red and add some bracketed explanations.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Bible Speaks said:

When threatened and under pressure, Apostle Peter with the other apostles had a strong conviction: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29)  [Excellent!]

How about us? Do we make God our ruler rather than men? Well, will you join us to make an examination to ourselves, if God Jehovah is truly our ruler and not men? [Doesn't sound wrong, but notice that it might be setting up a test so that we can compare our beliefs as Jehovah's Witnesses with the Bible. We have been accused of serving men rather than God when it comes to the way in which our Governing Body asks us to be obedient to their lead. In fact the line is reminiscent of two similar quotes where statements in our publications have been used against us. For example:

*** tr chap. 2 p. 13 par. 5 Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion ***
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.]

God's word says: "I am Jehovah your God." (Exodus 20:2) While in Jesus Christ, he always claim and confirmed by his disciples that he is God's Son. (John 1:14,34,49,51) [Excellent!]

God's word says: "You must not have any other gods besides me.You must not make.. a carved image.. not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them." (Exodus 20:3-5) While Jesus Christ said, "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship in spirit and truth."-John 4:23,24 [Excellent! However, these scriptures have often been used to point out that JWs tend to "serve" an organization as if it's nearly on the same level as Jehovah or Jesus. The context of the verses in John 4 have often been used in order to say that we shouldn't need an organization to teach us the truth.

(John 4:20-25) . . .Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.”]

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "You are no part of the world.. just as I am no part of the world." (John 15:19; 17:16) [Excellent! Maybe, however, there is a very subtle point about the choice between a "heavenly hope" and "earthly hope" here that will be later tied to the Memorial celebration, in a way that is not at all in line with our current teachings.]

Up to this point it might not have been clear that this really about the upcoming Memorial celebration. However, watch the real point of the article become clearer.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Bible Speaks said:

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "I am the bread of life... If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever.. whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.".. And during the Lord's Evening meal, Jesus Christ gives the real meaning of his previous invitation to his disciples: "Jesus took a loaf.., he said: "Take, eat.This means my body. And taking a cup.. saying: "Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my 'blood of covenant', which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins". (John 6:48-57, 60,61, 66,67; Matthew 26:26-28) [It's true we use the same verses all the time, but this time the point is that God through Christ has given us a command to obey! And the context of the verse says that this command was for "all of you" meaning the apostles, but also Jesus had said that it has a wider application to ANYONE who will live forever. It's for WHOEVER will obey so that they can have everlasting life and be resurrected on the last day. This has become the full set-up now for the "test" of our own desire to obey God or men.]

While men says; "Only the little flock, who have an immortality hope in heaven,  will partake the emblems during the Memorial of Lord's Evening Meal."  [And so there we have the "test:" Men say only the little flock who have the hope of immortality should obey God's word through Christ to partake (and keep on doing this). Yet Jesus said it's for "all of you," "anyone," and "whoever" would appreciate the gift of everlasting life, and the forgiveness of sins.]  

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the Heavenly One. Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:9-11) [So, the idea is now to test whether we passed the test. Do we follow men who say not to partake because it's only for a select few? Or do we follow Jesus and Jehovah who say it's for all of us to obey this reminder?]

So the basic idea, as it is written in this article, is to cast doubt on the authority of men we have accepted. The last few paragraphs therefore are really intended, I think, to cast doubt on the organization and portray it as a false prophet:

On 4/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Bible Speaks said:

While in the early Christians, all of them have a hope of going up to heaven, all had received the gifts of holy spirit in different ways as Apostle Paul said: ". . . let him acknowledged the things I am writing to you, because they are the Lord's commandments." (1 Corinthians 14:31,37) [All the early Christians had the hope of going to heaven, and the end of he verse about the early congregation reminds them about obedience to the Lord's commandments. Nothing specifically tied to the thesis of the article here, but still connected.]

God's word says through Jesus Christ: "Continue to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:44) While in Jesus Christ advice: "Prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? . . .  Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? You must accordingly be perfect, as your  heavenly Father is perfect."- Matthew 5:45-48 [Nothing wrong with these points, but they are likely here tied to the idea of Christians not being a part of the world, which is a command for all of us. Even if we hold to an "earthly hope" to live forever in paradise, we are still proving ourselves sons of our Father in the heavens. We are in this sense "heavenly" and not "people of the nations." Also, the term "sons of your Father" appears to be applicable to all Christians here, as the only other choice is being "earthly" in the sense of doing no better than people of the nations.]

Jesus Christ reminds us: "For false Christ and false prophets will arise.. so as to mislead, if possible even the chosen ones . Look! I have forewarned you." (Matthew 24:24)  [This is a conclusion, which would have no place unless the point was that we as followers of an earthly organization, are being misled. The use of the term "chosen ones" here is probably more significant to the writer in the sense that "chosen ones" have been misled into disobeying Christ's command to partake because they have been misled into not recognizing themselves as "chosen ones" -- Christians!]

Jesus Christ also forewarned us by giving us the illustration of weeds and wheat that "his enemy (the Devil ) came and oversowed weeds (sons of the wicked one ) in among the wheat... both grow together." (Matthew 13:24-30, 37-40) [The same point made from Matthew 24:24, implying that we might be being misled by "weeds" and again that the choice for Christians is to be either "sons of your Father in heaven," or "sons of the wicked one." No other choices are given in the Bible. Also, this particular illustration is another that is often used to show that specific organizations are of no consequence, since the wheat and weeds grow together with nothing to distinguish them until the angels participation in the final harvest.]

Apostle Paul also reminds us: "Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of you a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God."- Hebrews 3:12. Contributed [This is a conclusion derived from ideas in the article that speaks of those who disobey the command to partake of the emblems, and speaks of them as drawing away from God and having a "wicked heart."]

So, it's always good to watch out where we get things from. If we wish to discuss the issues brought up here, that's great, but we shouldn't have these types of posts thrust upon everyone completely unaware.

[Witness]

21 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Only?

Only.  That is a power packed word in regard to the topic, but allowance cannot be made for an elder body, if that is what you are referring to.  Although the Wt. claims they are appointed by holy spirit, if this is an arrangement contrary to God’s spiritual arrangement already in place, which it is, they are not appointed by holy spirit.

“And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” John 12:47,48

The words of God and our adherence to them, are in essence what judges all of us.  John 14:23; Luke 12:10; John 8:51; Heb 4:12-13 We become “slaves of Christ” because he is the Word, the Truth, the Life and Light.  Gal 1:10; John 14:6; 8:12

If a doctor, with a well-known positive reputation told you clearly the way you’re going to recuperate from an illness, would you obey his instructions?  Most likely, and you might say, “I’m going to do what the doctor says”, yet you would not become that person’s slave.  The elder body as well as the GB have gone beyond the “instruction” level to the judgement level, by resorting to slavery – servitude to their word.   Do they judge in truth, or by man’s doctrine?

Our obedience is to the word of Truth. Those who are designated by God to also speak this truth are his kingly priesthood of anointed ones.  The early temple priesthood under God’s direction gives us the pattern to understand how God intended for all to be served, as well as the direction of their “obedience” to the hearing the word of God. We can learn this through these scriptures: Deut. 24:8; 2 Chron 30:22; 2 Chron 35:3; Lev 10:11; Mal 2:7; Heb 8:10  They are the authentic shepherds to feed and care for Christ’s sheep in the priestly judicial aspect, as well as kingly – with authority and power of truth, in imitation of their Master Christ who is within them and they are a part of.  Eph 4:25; John 14:23; John 15:1-8

Since the Wt. has erased this priesthood completely, formatting its own with its own rules, Christ’s words will be their judge. Dan 8:10-12; 7:9,10,25-27

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”  John 13:20; Matt 10:40-42; 25:31-46; John 14:23,24

For those within the Body of Christ during the time of the end, “Elijah” comes to restore all things.  Matt 17:11  I implied that Heb 13:17 referred to those within the Body, and as many who obeyed John the Baptist’s teachings and followed him,  anointed ones must recognize and be obedient to the restoration of truth by “Elijah”, coming from the Father, to the Son, to those fathers and children in Christ.  Mal 4:5,6; 3:1; Mark 1:3; Zech 4:9,14,11; Rev 11:4,3; 10:7; Isa 52:7

Out of love for our natural father, we give him obedience by listening and responding to his word.  How much more so should the entire family under our God.

 

[Bible Speaks]

@JW Insider I was away today Assembly time. Some I had already erased. I got this 3 years ago read it and deleted some. I will only use quotations from links for information. I think this person, woman was also a different tongue. Some words didn't make sense. I should have just used the picture and quote from wol.jw.org my mistake, sorry I read and reread, never saw what you saw. Thank you ???

[ComfortMyPeople]

On 4/9/2017 at 1:05 AM, JW Insider said:

I am concerned about the content of the "contributed" article however. 

I apologize JWI, but I can't find in the thread the article you've pointed out as source of your answer. Could you be so kind of indicate me where is it mentioned?

[Anna]

@Witness I understand "obedience to the GB/elders" to be more of a "organizational and keeping the congregation moraly clean" nature rather than what the apostle Paul was talking about in context which was: they had a clear command from God, and men were telling them to stop. I have not known the GB to ask us to break any commandment from God. If they did, then obviously  we would want to obey God rather than them.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

I apologize JWI, but I can't find in the thread the article you've pointed out as source of your answer. Could you be so kind of indicate me where is it mentioned?

After I pointed out the potential problems with it, Bible Speaks erased it. You can still find it in my quote of the original contributed article. The only thing I did is add some comments in brackets.

[Witness]

On 4/12/2017 at 4:54 AM, Anna said:

I have not known the GB to ask us to break any commandment from God. If they did, then obviously  we would want to obey God rather than them.

Oh dear, Anna.  Where does one begin?

They have violated God’s Temple arrangement by authorizing the replacing of His anointed Temple priesthood with the elder body. Ezek 44:7; 5:11; 8,5,6; 23:38;33:11; (Rev 13:7; Matt 24:15; Dan 9:27; 11:16; Rev 13:4; Dan 11:31; 12:11

Although they are quick to point out Christendom's faults - 

"RELIGIOUS LEADERS sometimes predict tragic worldwide events to warn mankind and gather followers. Doomsday prophet Harold Camping and his disciples widely advertised that the earth would be destroyed in 2011. Needless to say, the world is still here." Watchtower 2014 May 1 p.3

 They call this err in guidance - 

 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the 'battle in the day of Jehovah' will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah 1971

But God holds the GB accountable.  Deut 18:20-22; Jer 23:16

They spiritually condemn one to “death” if an individual cannot, at the time of announcement or any time accept failed prophetic dates, or changed doctrine.

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.  For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”  Matt 7:1,2

By doing this to anointed ones, their brothers in Christ, they have essentially authorized their “killing” Rom 13:9; 1 John 3:12

They have stolen salvation found only in Christ and have given it to an organization.  Acts 4:12  They have authorized loyalty, love, faith and obedience to be adhered toward this organization, thus robbing God of our whole-souled loyalt, love, faith and obedience.

Essentially, they have broken every commandment and the decrees that God and Christ have asked to be obeyed.

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’  This is the first and greatest commandment  And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:37-40

And just today I heard a video where the organization charged interested on loans borrowed for kingdom hall quick builds, for 20 years.  This was most likely authorized by the GB.  Exod 22:25; Ezek 18:13; Deut 23:19; Luke 6:35

There is so much more, but how much good does it do to say it?  Eight million people will still obey them.  Isa 9:14-16