Let us Appreciate Brother Lett

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Post thread probably needs to define the terms "neutral" and "political" otherwise it's just a semantic clash.

Definition of politics https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics

1a : the art or science of government

b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy

c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

2: political actions, practices, or policies

3a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)

b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession

c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices

4: the political opinions or sympathies of a person

5a : the total complex of relations between people living in society

b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view  

 

By point 5a in explanation we are all involved in this process, as human living on Earth.

By point 3a in particular group (WT JWorg) exist also political activities that is focused on events within society (members) and on other side how this religious group have to deal whit person outside of WT society (WT as Company and JW as religious body of members)

In general use inside JW members, word "politics" are clearly viewed, i believe, as activity that is specific mainly or most for politicians and government that lead some country. JW members, in general, don't see how would even word "politic" be something that can be used in vocabulary of WTBT Society or JW congregations for internal affairs. This word sounds to much worldly to JW members, like sort of blasphemy. Even among  ordinary people in society (non JW) word "politics" have mainly negative connotations, especially when they looking how politicians acting.

  

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

How can there be an argument about this? Isn't it one of the functions of prayer?

No ... not really ... petitions to God prayer is trying to influence God.... NOT politicians.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Post thread probably needs to define the terms "neutral" and "political" otherwise it's just a semantic clash.

I think several postings above this one Sreko Sostar did provide standard definitions.

The problem with people making their OWN definitions ... is that people make their OWN agenda driven definitions, to fit their distorted world view, and call good, evil ... and call evil, good.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

petitions to God prayer is trying to influence God.... NOT politicians.

Far too narrow a view:

politics: 

• activities associated with the governance of a country or area,
• activities aimed at improving someone's status or increasing power within an organization.

I don't see a request to God for intervention to improve matters on behalf of fellow worshippers as falling outside these parameters, especially in the light of 1Tim 2:1-2: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all sorts of men,  concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness."

 

[Space Merchant]

@Srecko Sostar And yet you do realize as to what caused the ban to begin with and what prompted such to take place, for if they were indeed in politics they would not have been suppressed months prior, granted if you are well aware of Alexander Dvorkin and everyone in connection to him. Letter writing isn't political just as people who come to defend a memorial area such as a cemetery from those who seek to change it.

Now, you listed the following:

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

5a : the total complex of relations between people living in society

As well as:

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

By point 5a in explanation we are all involved in this process, as human living on Earth.

By point 3a in particular group (WT JWorg) exist also political activities that is focused on events within society (members) and on other side how this religious group have to deal whit person outside of WT society (WT as Company and JW as religious body of members)

Would it make more sense to address 3a first and then 5a? Indeed we are humans living on earth, all of us who roam the earth and those of us who use to, thus being buried in Sheol.

As for point 3a, as the following reads:

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

3a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)

And as to what political affairs? Asking someone to not cease one's primary source of worship is not political, let alone religious rights. What is deemed political if if the faith was in affiliation with groups similar to the other churches in Russia, mainly the Non-Orthodoxy ones. For if we have to speak of this as a political issue then it can be said Apostle Paul's dealing with Artemis followers is seen as political or Christians to Niro, when the reality is, it is not. The only thing political that was taking place during the time of religious distress was in regards to the Anti-Corruption Heroes who are in direct and indirect confrontation with The Kremlin, as well as the RoC Church, due to a number of reasons, for more than 1,000 arrests have been made and a sheer twist of using Yarovaya Law (Закон Яровой) against anyone they choose. On the other side of the spectrum, there has been a non-political/violent movement to save Soviet Era homes only for the State Duma to deal with them, physically, but unfortunately, they too lost to the Kremlin.

There was also no form of competition, if you know the motto of the Russian Orthodox Church (RoC) they consider others as competition and will do what is necessary to deal with them, be it other faiths, or anyone playing Pokemon in or near a church, to even some child quoting Shakespeare, for anything inciting of hatred tends to trigger the church greatly. That being said, the other factor is Bible bans, that effects all persons and subject them as suspect, we know this because of the tracker site formed by the FSB, so far one has been recovered, but the reason, mainly targeting religion, has been hidden and or changed on Russia's side, only after the State Duma made made new laws about a year ago.

Again if you REALLY understand Apostle Paul's writing, which seems to be an issue already, you'd realize the Civil Disobedience of Spiritual Warfare, for we can see that a faith's action for worship and or anything connecting to God is being suppressed., cut of, if you will.

Other then that, go to Russian side of things to actually understand the situation.

At the end of the day, what these people have been doing and or doing is wanting to continue their faith, nothing more, no leadership or competition and or political interest, simply trying to keep their faith community going for what they see fit is in connection to worshiping El Shaddai.

Also it should also be point to claim that one shouldn't be ignoring of what was informed to such one before.

[JW Insider]

On 8/14/2018 at 3:27 AM, Anna said:

It may follow a Biblical pattern in the past, but I cant see any indication in scripture that talks about the great tribulation/Armageddon that anything like that will be necessary then. I get suspicious of the kind of statements which urge obedience now, the reason being that we will need to obey later to survive...

Many sincere brothers now are quick to defend the mistakes of the past by saying that the number of little ones who were stumbled was actually a good thing. We've seem multiple comments on this forum that make that claim. As the misguided logic goes, with 1975, for example, it was a kind of test that only stumbled those who were serving Jehovah with a date in mind.

To be fair, I think all this talk about the importance of obedience to men is a mistake. It is not hooked to anything so tangible as a calendar date so fewer people will be stumbled outright. But more people will be disheartened over time without being able to put their finger on exactly why. In my opinion it will be because they probably anticipated that association with fellow Witnesses would continue to enhance their love for Jehovah God and Jesus Christ in an overwhelmingly positive, uplifting, encouraging and heartwarming way.

In this case, perhaps the brothers in the lead feel that they need to cover all the bases, and prepare us for unknown possibilities. The problem, in my opinion, is that this emphasis on the importance of obedience to men has now been associated (e.g., summer conventions) with a kind of future "fear-mongering" about the conditions we can expect during the great tribulation. It creates an even heavier load by making us overly concerned about the next day, when we would prefer to think that seeking first the Kingdom would have freed us from such anxiety, throwing our burden upon Jehovah, knowing that Christ's load is light, and his yoke is kind.

• (Matthew 6:33, 34) 33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you. 34 So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles.

But this makes it appear to serve the exact same purpose as 1975. This time, by associating these unspecified ways in which we will need to show obedience to men with a certain level of fear-mongering about the great tribulation, we will pay more than the usual attention to men. It should have the effect of ratcheting up the activity and anticipation by making the end seem even more imminent.

It reminds me of an experience at Bethel when I once had an opportunity to question Brother Franz about his plan to have us study a 1973 book a second time in 1981.

*** km 11/80 pp. 1-3 par. 5 Part I—Congregation Meetings ***

• CONGREGATION BOOK STUDY: In January we will start studying the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached. This 416-page book, published in 1973, contains vital information that is even more apropos now than when it was first released. Think of the hundreds of thousands of new ones who have been baptized since it was first published.

My question was about whether we needed a new edition to change some inaccuracies, or whether it would go into print using the old press plates. His response was basically that we needed no update to it because "this is what the publishers need right now." [The book was basically a history of the Watchtower Society wedged into what are now half-obsolete explanations of Matthew 25.] But his idea was that it would somehow make people appreciate the Society, its place in our time, and therefore raise the level of activity.

So ultimately I think that the pendulum will swing the other way again, and there will be a kind of retraction of this method of making the end seem so imminent as a way to raise activity levels. The Bible indicates that this method can backfire.

• (Proverbs 13:12) 12 Expectation postponed makes the heart sick,. . .

Langston Hughes agreed:

*** g94 5/22 p. 27 Put Humor Into Your Life ***

• Poet Langston Hughes once wrote: “Like a welcome summer rain, humor may suddenly cleanse and cool the earth, the air, and you.”

Oh wait, not that one, but his famous one: "What happens to a dream deferred?"

Of course, those who become disheartened (over the current emphasis) will likely be "chalked up to" the fact that this served as a test to get rid of those who were not worthy. For most, including myself, the overall context of these "changes" is not as bad as I just represented it, since the overall point is not to fear men, but to expect Jehovah to come to our aid when the trouble seems completely overwhelming. But unfortunately, I fear that even the perceived combination of emphasis on "obedience to men" and "fear-mongering" will combine to create a new kind of burden that will not appear to reflect the true spirit of Christianity. 

[TrueTomHarley]

29 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Oh wait, not that one, but his famous one: "What happens to a dream deferred?"

 

"This next lesson is mighty important."

"Bullwinkle is a dope."

"NOT that lesson. This lesson:" (Rocky and Bullwinkle)

Still, if studying the 1000 years book twice was for misguided purpose, for what reason was it directed that we study the Greatest Man book four times? (and again, in its new version)

 

[Space Merchant]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. But the problem is here is anything pertaining to God being hindered in some way, shape or form, Civil Disobedience of Spiritual Warfare is indeed in use. In some sense, it also is in regards to the whole Bible issue going on in Russia, which a bit of that has spelled over to some areas in the EU and Western US,but as we can, Civil Disobedience is at play in this domain also.

[JW Insider]

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Still, if studying the 1000 years book twice was for misguided purpose

I never said it was for a misguided purpose. I can't say I really agree with the purpose, but that was not a concern of mine at the time. My question was more about whether the book would be re-set (in new molten lead linotype) or whether it would be redone for offset printing, and perhaps even an upgrade to the artwork. Also, we had a set of proofreading changes that were not exactly the kind that that the proofreading department could just fix without permission. (And this has an expensive trickle-down effect on the other language editions.) They would be tied in with editorial decisions.

A few month later, for the updated "Truth" book (1968 edition vs the new 1981 edition), several references to 1975 and the probable imminent end in the 1970's, had to be removed and replaced with new content, but this was a more obvious editorial decision, not a proofreading decision.)

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

fear-mongering

Definitely bad, oppressive, a tool of the insecure. There is a tendency for some to try to lever on this basis. Seems to be a kind of convoluted version of what Peter said at Matthew 26:33.

However, I do not think Paul and Barnabas were fear-mongering when they said “We must enter into the Kingdom of God through many tribulations." Acts 14:22, or Paul when he said to the Hebrews, "In your struggle against that sin, you have never yet resisted to the point of having your blood shed." Heb.12:4.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"obedience to men"

Certainly, Peter counseled vigorously against abject "obedience to men" at Acts 5:29: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.", all the more notable as coming from one who displayed the opposite behaviour at times.

However there is a balance in this matter too, as the same Scriptures counsel children to be "obedient to your parents" (Eph.6:1), slaves to "be obedient in everything to those who are your human masters" (Col.3:22) all faithful Christians to mark those who are "not obedient to our word through this letter" (2Thess.3:14), "to be obedient to governments and authorities" (Titus 3:1); and, finally, to "be obedient to those taking the lead among you" (Heb.13:17).

So when a b(B)rother says obeying instructions in what is of little consequence now is good practice for obeying instructions regarding what might be big consequences later, I don't feel blackmailed by some sort of bogey-man tactic really. I just feel that this is someone giving me a bit of good advice on how to turn a bumpy ride into something a little smoother. But then, that's just me. Everybody has their own way of dealing with and reacting to these things it seems. 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

a new kind of burden that will not appear to reflect the true spirit of Christianity. 

I agree entirely with avoiding the creation of a fear-mongered, man-pleasing attitude.

I endorse fully the need to engage in reflecting Jesus' manner in refreshing our fellow worshippers, working to lighten their "burdens" wherever we can.

But at the same time we need to balance the fact that it was Jesus who instructed a heightened level of alertness in "keeping on  the watch", an avoidance of everyday distractions in maintaining a personally calibrated "whole soul" level of activity, and a full appreciation of the "torture stake" element involved in our acceptance of discipleship. ?

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Many sincere brothers now are quick to defend the mistakes of the past by saying that the number of little ones who were stumbled was actually a good thing. We've seem multiple comments on this forum that make that claim. As the misguided logic goes, with 1975, for example, it was a kind of test that only stumbled those who were serving Jehovah with a date in mind.

so called "SIFTING", very popular terminology in one period of organization used to explain described phenomenon and some other situation when Company caused mass (in greater or less numerous scale) disapproval of some parts of members.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But more people will be disheartened over time without being able to put their finger on exactly why.

excellent observation!

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached. This 416-page book, published in 1973, contains vital information that is even more apropos now than when it was first released.

ohh yes, in fact so many informative ideas and interpretations and double, triple time/way of fulfillment. So complicated to understand what in fact author want to teach. Pictures, parables, yesterday, today, tomorrow,  transmitted meaning and true meaning ....In fact not understandable, only way is to learn by memorization and repeat the text ... and play that you understand :)))))))

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But his idea was that it would somehow make people appreciate the Society, its place in our time, and therefore raise the level of activity................(Proverbs 13:12) 12 Expectation postponed makes the heart sick,. . .

It is also written in some apocrypha :)))))))  

A generation of JW and those who will be JW goes and next  generation of JW and those who will be JW comes,       But the earth remains forever.

[Grey Reformer]

14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Heh, JW letters was addressed to Russian Government, Mr Putin, Medvedev and all other political characters that are in "position to changed" Court decisions. So, how can you considered that as Neutral colored letters? When involved at least two parts of governing,  political and judicial power. 

How do you define Christian Activism, Political Activism, and Civil disobedience?

What you're implying is what? That, Jehovah’s Witnesses send their letters to the Orthodox Church? At some point, making sense reflects upon the one making the argument.

Just like in 1975. It was a self-inflicted incident perpetrated by overzealous individuals that misunderstood the Watchtower message. Therefore, there was NO! Test of faith within the organization. However, there are still confused individuals that continue to mislead the public just as any former witness does to continue a known conspiracy theory. So, there is no need to defend the Watchtower with occurrences that were out of their control.