The French Speaking Baptist Church of Stratford is now located in the former Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall at 494 Milford Point Road.

[Sean Migos]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But, none of us, who is really a faithful and discreet steward, will ever recommend ourselves as someone who is approved, and who must therefore be obeyed. We obey in the sense of following faithful examples and Christian instruction.

Thank you for your response. I will continue to hold the Governing Body as seen through the eyes of Jesus, not in reverence but deserving of respect for their hard work and dedication to Jehovah.

I can see the difference with the Holy Spirit that Jehovah lays out for each of us.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 American Standard Version (ASV)

8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 10 and to another workings of [a]miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits: to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:

While the Governing Body is a servant that feeds Jehovah’s domestic flock, I don’t believe as you stated that Elders receive the same level of the Holy Spirit as they do.

All baptized and dedicated persons receive God’s Holy Spirit. But I just don’t see where it would be, in particular to suggest the inheritance of that spirit is the same.

Do you think that “women” can be elders?

Romans 12:6-8 American Standard Version (ASV)

6 And having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith; 7 or ministry, let us give ourselves to our ministry; or he that teacheth, to his teaching; 8 or he that exhorteth, to his exhorting: he that giveth, let him do it with [a]liberality; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

I will agree in one point you made. All baptized witnesses should “obey” those that take the lead in order for Jehovah to see the harmony within the organization.

Hebrews 13:17

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I have no inclination to disrespect God for the choices he makes in man, and whom he chooses to receive God's instructions.

Can I ask? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

Do you believe, as the Bible students did, to have each congregation run independent of each other?

Given your response, I cannot support that kind of man's logic. I will instead support scripture as divine truth.

[Sean Migos]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Read the club guidelines and that might give you an idea. It is up to you what you want to discuss, and the tone you want to set, especially when you create your own topic. No one is going to make you be part of any discussion, helpful or unhelpful. It is up to you what discussion you join. And the good thing is, if you don't like the club, then there is a button at the top right hand corner which says "leave club" and that will delete your membership

Thank you. Given the preview, here. I will stay out of that club. I don't see anything spiritually uplifting if that is the case.

[Witness]

 

44 minutes ago, Sean Migos said:

Thank you for your response. I will continue to hold the Governing Body as seen through the eyes of Jesus, not in reverence but deserving of respect for their hard work and dedication to Jehovah.

 

45 minutes ago, Sean Migos said:

I have no inclination to disrespect God for the choices he makes in man, and whom he chooses to receive God's instructions.

 

That is pretty impossible for the GB, isn't it?  They admit they are not inspired by Holy Spirit, which is the only way they could receive God's instructions.  If they were to work as one with the an entire anointed Body, then yes; they would receive instructions of truth through Christ.  Col 2:19;  1 Cor 12:21-26; Eph 4:4-6

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.  1 John 2:27

Holy Spirit, the source of inspiration comes from the vine - Jesus Christ.  If these men say they are not inspired, (which they have) they have not 'remained' on the vine.  

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."  John 15:5-8

So, whose "instructions" are they carrying out?  2 Cor 11:4,13,14    How does Jesus truly see these men who claim they are not inspired with his truth?  

 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."  John 14:15-17 

 

 

[Sean Migos]

31 minutes ago, Witness said:

hat is pretty impossible for the GB, isn't it?  They admit they are not inspired by Holy Spirit, which is the only way they could receive God's instructions.  If they were to work as one with the an entire anointed Body, then yes; they would receive instructions of truth through Christ.

I won’t dignify a response when the opposition believe they have inherited some kind of truth by the God of this world.

Not being inspired or infallible then becomes a different position from the one given by this dedicated opposition. The GB actions seem to prevail on not accepting anything “inspired” by evil works. Can the same be said about the opposition? 1 John 5:19

Can anyone claim infallibility aside from Christ? Weren’t all of the first century Christians infallible? Were they not chosen by Jesus to continue his fine work? I don’t see where this argument can be applied.

I will not hold an endless debate with those that oppose the org. I’m looking for meaningful and structured alliances with spiritually awake individuals.

[Ray Devereaux]

On 9/14/2019 at 11:37 PM, Sean Migos said:

Is that JW only for Jehovah’s witnesses to discuss uplifting spiritual matters or is it the same as it is here where witnesses will come together to criticize doctrine, policy, and the governing body? I don’t want to be part of any unhelpful discussion if I join.

The expectation of being spiritually uplifted here is zero. I recommend, all Jehovah witnesses that are not in conflict with themselves, not take part here. Being here only serves to rebuff those that have inherited conflict by their own initiative, or had past situations they were sanctioned for. 

Do not look favorably on that JW only club. It amounts to the same dissidence as it does here.

[TrueTomHarley]

22 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a great and pervasive chill in the "Truth", now where people are afraid to speak about anything, for fear that they may use unapproved words, in unapproved phrases, to tip of the "hall monitors" that they may not be orgasmically happy about everything that is being said, and is going on

What a paranoid nutcase, someone who has become a self-fulfilling prophesy! If I didn’t know better, I would say he is one of Jack Ryan’s IMF secret agents. How did he get to be this way? Did the fellow, probably always quirky but also idealistic, once require readjusting, per 2 Corinthians 13:9-11, and someone too heavy-handed used a sledge hammer instead of a chisel?

Surely the “people afraid” must be those found online, certainly not in the flesh at the Kingdom Hall, for this “fear” is not the spirit that exists at any Hall that I am aware of. If they are online, then they are murky. You don’t know who they are, regardless of what they may say. Yet if these are the ones you hang out with, you do nothing but feed into your confirmation bias, which seems well past the point of no return

Nurturing that bias from online, my guess is that you project it on ones who you actually meet in person, because they are simply not that way in reality. The complaining spirit is yours, not theirs.  The fear is yours, not theirs, that if you actually speak openly of your contempt for those taking the lead in the Christian Congregation, they will immediately apply to you the verse about gangrene—diseased tissue that is beyond the point of healing, and start thinking of how one must deal with gangrenous tissue. (2 Timothy 2:17)

And does newbie @Sean Migos think that he can find things “spiritually uplifting” here? Provocative, yes, newsworthy sometimes, even thoughtful in places (though not this one). But for what is truly spiritually uplifting, one must search within the context of the congregation, “a pillar and support of the truth.” (Not to discourage Sean, of course, who states his case well, but just to serve as a reality check)

There was that plea from JTR on what was to be found in the Love Never Fails convention. After attending, I thought of the discussion of what love is, per 1 Corinthians 13, specifically how it covers a “multitude of sins”—whether they be yours or those of others. But I also anticipated the reaction: “Yeah, I’ll start when they start.” I fear the heart has become too hardened for any of that counsel to sink in.

[divergenceKO]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And does newbie @Sean Migos think that he can find things “spiritually uplifting” here? Provocative, yes, newsworthy sometimes, even thoughtful in places (though not this one). But for what is truly spiritually uplifting, one must search within the context of the congregation, “a pillar and support of the truth.” (Not to discourage Sean, of course, who states his case well, but just to serve as a reality check)

Can this be acceptable when there is so much division within the brotherhood? It appears, certain opinions are promoted much more than people are willing to accept as fabricated truth by those causing those spiritually dead debates because some fear repercussion from the congregation. Is that not seen as Adam and Eve trying to hide from Jehovah? What fine Christian example can one receive? What spiritual testimony can those that have yet to know Jehovah be given by those individuals? Are any of you Jehovah’s witnesses?

[Anna]

Sniff, sniff, sniff.....I can smell Allen Smith

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Thank you for your response. I will continue to hold the Governing Body as seen through the eyes of Jesus, not in reverence but deserving of respect for their hard work and dedication to Jehovah.

I think you are exactly right. This is why I said the following:

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

. . . by accepting what the Governing Body has claimed about themselves in print. We don't have to make anything up. . .  But this does not mean that we shouldn't "obey" them. They are elders, they are desirous of a fine work. . . .  We "obey" their faithful lead, as we contemplate how their conduct turns out. We obey by imitating their faithful conduct.

That was based on Hebrews 13, of course, and also:

(1 Tim. 5:17) Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching.

As Christians, we should question every one of our teachings, to make sure it is brought into obedience with Christ's teachings. We should never shirk our responsibility to "make sure of all things," "prove to yourselves," "test the inspired utterances," "pay close attention to your teaching," "see whether these things were so," etc., etc.

And since the Governing Body have become the most public of our elder committees, and have taken on a greater responsibility, it is vital that we question them just as we should question a local body of elders. More will be asked of those to whom more has been given. Teachers will receive heavier judgment. We don't just want to have our ears tickled.

In the NWT, the paragraph that starts out with 1 Tim  5:17, quoted above, ends with this phrase, after a discussion about reproving elders before all onlookers:

(1 Timothy 5:21) 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these instructions without any prejudice or partiality.

Remember that there was a group of men in the first century that, due to a set of circumstances, were being seen as a kind of "governing body" that was at least indirectly exerting an strong influence on the doctrines of distant congregations. Galatia was very far from Jerusalem; it was about as far from Antioch, as Antioch was from Jerusalem. So Paul wrote to Galatia about those men who were at least indirectly creating such an influence on them, and he said:

(Galatians 1:7-3:1) 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. . . . Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave. . . . 15 But when God, who separated me . . .  so that I might declare the good news about him to the nations, I did not immediately consult with any human; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia, and then I returned to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. 19 But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. . . . . 2 Then after 14 years I again went up to Jerusalem with Barʹna·bas, also taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up as a result of a revelation, and I presented to them the good news that I am preaching among the nations. This was done privately, however, before the men who were highly regarded, to make sure that I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. 4 But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us; 5 we did not yield in submission to them, no, not for a moment, so that the truth of the good news might continue with you. 6 But regarding those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. 7 On the contrary, . . . .9 and when they recognized the undeserved kindness that was given me, James and Ceʹphas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave Barʹna·bas and me the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the nations but they to those who are circumcised. . . .  11 However, when Ceʹphas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 For before certain men from James arrived, . . . 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Barʹna·bas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, . . . . 3 O senseless Ga·laʹtians! Who has brought you under this evil influence. . . ?

So when Paul told Timothy not to show any partiality when it came to reproving elders before all onlookers, we see that Paul had already "walked the walk." If we are to be imitators of Paul's example, then we should be willing to look closely at all the doctrines and influences that we are taught, no matter who they come from. Even if from those who seem to be important, even if from the very pillars of the congregation, even if from James, Peter or John, or men sent from them. Would we be willing to resist such ones face to face? Or would we yield in submission because they were highly regarded?

Fortunately, of course, that matter in Jerusalem was cleared up with the help of the holy spirit. Fortunately for us, most matters of this magnitude have already been cleared up, too, and we have no problem always giving the benefit of the doubt to those who want us to submit to their lead. This probably causes no problems at all for 99 percent of us.

But we should still learn from the apostle Paul's words, that our teachings should not come from men, and that we should always be ready to resist any teachings that still need to be brought into harmony with the good news, no matter from whom or where we learned them.

We should be happy to have a committee of elders who are willing to take on the necessary responsibilities for the world-wide congregations. We should respect them, honor them, and follow their lead. However, the teaching that claims that the Governing Body is equal to the Faithful and Discreet Slave of Mt 24 is one of those teachings that we should question, specifically for the Biblical reasons that Jesus and Paul gave us. Also because it directly contradicts other Watchtower teachings from the March 15 2015 Watchtower. Also, it gives the impression that there are specific humans that we should always identify as Leaders, (even "Governors") instead of looking IMPARTIALLY to each particular example of conduct and faith, to contemplate how it turns out. It gives us the impression that, for doctrinal matters, a certain group of men should always have the FINAL say, and can therefore override the Christian-trained conscience of individuals, who will stand or fall before the judgment seat as individuals. 

As true and discreet slaves, we will each take the initiative (take the lead, see footnote on) in carrying each other's burdens. None of us, no matter how much we think of ourselves, will believe that more honor goes to us than we should give to others. This is what true obedience means:

(Galatians 6:2-5) . . .Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

(Romans 12:9-16) 9 Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked; cling to what is good. 10 In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another, take the lead.[fn, initiative] 11 Be industrious, not lazy. Be aglow with the spirit. Slave for Jehovah. 12 Rejoice in the hope. Endure under tribulation. Persevere in prayer. 13 Share with the holy ones according to their needs. Follow the course of hospitality. 14 Keep on blessing those who persecute; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. 16 Have the same attitude toward others as toward yourselves; do not set your mind on lofty things, but be led along with the lowly things. Do not become wise in your own eyes.

[JW Insider]

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

Sniff, sniff, sniff.....I can smell Allen Smith

I chuckled when TTH called Sean Migos a "newbie."

[Anna]

13 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I chuckled when TTH called Sean Migos a "newbie."

I'm almost willing to put money on it, that the new 'trio' is you know who....

[JW Insider]

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

I don’t believe as you stated that Elders receive the same level of the Holy Spirit as they do.

I never said they received the same, less, or more. Jesus said, about Jehovah:

(John 3:34) . . .He does not give the spirit [by measure].

Also, I think we cal all learn a lot about the spirit from these words:

(Romans 8:26, 27) 26 In like manner, the spirit also joins in with help for our weakness; for the problem is that we do not know what we should pray for as we need to, but the spirit itself pleads for us with unuttered groanings. 27 But the one who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in harmony with God for the holy ones.

(1 Corinthians 2:10-13) 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

All baptized and dedicated persons receive God’s Holy Spirit. But I just don’t see where it would be, in particular to suggest the inheritance of that spirit is the same.

I wouldn't suggest that.

*** w11 12/15 p. 25 par. 12 Guided by God’s Spirit in the First Century and Today ***
“Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons.” (1 Cor. 12:4-6, 11) Yes, holy spirit can operate in different ways on different servants of God for a purpose. Indeed, the holy spirit is available both to Christ’s “little flock” and to his “other sheep.”

*** w09 6/15 pp. 23-24 par. 15 The Faithful Steward and Its Governing Body ***
However, Christians who have truly received this anointing do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the “great crowd” may have. (Rev. 7:9) They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the “other sheep” have. (John 10:16) They do not expect special treatment; nor do they claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation.

Of course, that last Watchtower article was written just a year or so before the Governing Body did begin to ask for special attention, but the points made are still true.

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Do you think that “women” can be elders?

It would be difficult to be a woman and also be a man, and the husband of one wife. (And, of course, those with two wives could not be elders!)

(1 Timothy 3:1, 2) . . .This statement is trustworthy: If a man is reaching out to be an overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife . . .

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Hebrews 13:17

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them,

As pointed out in a previous post, this "obedience" is really about imitating those who take the initiative as examples to follow. Translating it as leaders appears to be improper, and in conflict with Jesus and Paul's other words about Leaders. In fact the NWT shows how this phrase can actually be translated as "those taking the initiative"

(Romans 12:10) . . . In showing honor to one another, take the lead^* [^*take the initiative].

*** nwt Romans 12:10 ***
Or “initiative.”

In other words, one of the ways we can recognize the true types of persons (especially elders/shepherds) whom we should be following (imitating) would be if those persons are taking the lead in showing honor to persons like Sean Migos. As individuals, members of the Governing Body should not have any trouble showing honor to persons like you.

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Can I ask? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

Yes.

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

Do you believe, as the Bible students did, to have each congregation run independent of each other?

No. As I said, it's a very good thing to have a committee of elders who are capable of handling issues for the congregations on a world-wide basis, whom we can respect. We live at a time when communications are such that this can work better than ever in the past.  I believe that various issues that come up with respect to unity and disunity in the congregations SHOULD be addressed by such a committee.

I think you know that the only time for concern is when this group of persons might take upon themselves the authority to create new doctrines/practices based on supposition and conjecture. There is nothing wrong with supposition and conjecture, and we should expect some of this, but it should never be accepted as anything more than supposition and conjecture. (And the Governing Body has admitted that much of what we have been taught has been conjecture.)

There is a loving way to present different conjectural ideas, and there is a way that "beats their fellow slaves." One could say, that this certain verse might mean this, and it might mean that so that they explain why they prefer (for certain explained reasons) to believe that it means this. That's fine because it doesn't get in the way of the leadership of Christ Jesus. But if that slave should say, we believe it means this, and if you believe it means something else then you should be kicked out of the congregation, then I think we know when a line has been crossed. It does not have to be the duty of a "Governing Body" to create conjectural teachings. In fact, per Galatians, if conjectural teachings exert an influence that is different from the good news taught in the Scriptures, then we should treat those particular conjectural teachings as "accursed." 

So if we have the idea that any man or group of men (elders, committees of elders, or "governors") are to be so respected and honored that we could never imagine treating their conjectural doctrines as "accursed" then we have too high an opinion of those we are following.

They might even be correct about everything at the moment. (And as you know, I don't think they are correct on at least two teachings, but that's my own opinion and conscience.) But all of us can at least check if our view about them is proper and scriptural, if we can at least imagine a scenario where we would not only question every doctrine, but even potentially realize that a directly or indirectly promoted teaching could be "accursed." 

13 hours ago, Sean Migos said:

I will instead support scripture as divine truth.

Exactly!