Whats the meaning of Matthew 24:15?

[KevinM]

Right after talking to his disciples about when “the end will come” at Matthew 24:13, 14 Jesus warned of a time when his followers would “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” after which they were to “begin fleeing” from Jerusalem and the surrounding district of Judea “to the mountains”. (Mt 24:14-16)  This was a signal that the end was imminent.  For the most part, all can agree how and when this occurred in the first century but what about our understanding of the modern day fulfillment?  Do we understand it completely?  What prophecies “spoken about by Daniel the prophet” was Jesus referring to in regard to the modern day fulfillment of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?

There are only a four prophecies of Daniel that could apply to Jesus description of a “disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place”. 

 

1. Daniel 8:9-25 is a prophecy that Jehovah’s Witnesses applied to Anglo America, starting first with Britain as a “horn, a small one” then when joined by America this horn “grows very great toward the south, toward the east and toward the decoration”.  Then Anglo America is said to become responsible for a “transgression causing desolation” upon God’s people “to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on.” (Da 8:9-25)  This was applied to the persecution of Jehovah’s witnesses starting in Nazi Germany and then persecution expanding to engulf the British Commonwealth and America during WWII.  However, could this prophecy in Daniel 8:9-25 apply to a time when Anglo America stands the UN disgusting thing “in a holy place”?  If so, does this passage show that this “holy place” is associated with God’s people?  

 

2. Another prophecy that could apply is Daniel 11:30-35, this prophecy is regarding the king of the north.  In this prophecy he is said to “hurl denunciations against the holy covenant” and then he returns or “will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.” (Da 11:30b, 31)  Jehovah’s Witnesses have applied this prophecy in a few ways.  It is applied to Nazi Germany’s assault of Gods people during WWII and it is also expanded to include the installation of the UN as the disgusting thing in 1945 as well as the intrusion into their organization by Soviet spy’s during the Cold War.   Is it possible that Daniel 11:30c shows that the king of the north returns to assault Gods people again by standing the UN disgusting thing in a holy place? (Da 11:31)  Also do to the similarities in the language used in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 8:9-25 show a possibility they are describing the same thing and does this suggest Anglo America is the king of the north? 

 

3. Another prophecy in Daniel that could relate to the standing in a holy place is Daniel 11:40-12:1.  According to the prophecy of Daniel 11:40-43 the king of the north “storms” against the king of the south and “enter(s) into the lands and sweep(s) through like a flood and also enter(s) into the land of the Decoration”.  Again this has been applied by Jehovah’s Witnesses to events surrounding the persecution of God’s people during WWII particularly in Nazi Germany and then by the Soviet Union during the Cold War (because these world powers were viewed as the king of the north).  Yet according to the latter part of the prophecy in Daniel 11:44-12:1 after conquering Egypt (a symbol for both the world and the king of the south) the king of the north will “go out (of Egypt) in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction” and will return to Israel to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration”.  Jehovah’s Witnesses view this as a future and final attack on the estate of spiritual Israel by the King of the north.  Armageddon or God’s war was said to be triggered by this attack which is said to come at the end of the great tribulation after false religion is destroyed.

 

Because of reasoning in this manner, Jehovah’s Witnesses have never associated this final attack by the king of the north with “the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . .  standing in a holy place”. (Mt 24:15)  Also they view the “standing in a holy place” as an attack upon false religion and not an attack directed at Jehovah’s Witnesses.  But does the scriptural evidence within the context of Daniel 11:44-12:1 point to a time when the land of Decoration (a symbol of spiritual Israel) is invaded by the king of the north near his end?  Also if Anglo America is actually the king of the north would such an understanding harmonize with the other prophecies of Daniel already mentioned above and would that enhance understanding of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?  

 

4. Daniel 12:5-12 is a vision that surrounds a period of 3 ½ years that involves “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people”. (Da 12:5-7)  This was viewed as something that occurred to the bible students during WWI, which climaxed when eight prominent members were imprisoned, headquarters was shut down and the constant feature (the preaching work) was said to be removed.  The date set for this 3 ½ year time period is December 1914 to June 1918.  Daniel 12:11, mentions a time period of “1290 days” that occurs when “the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place”.  Jehovah’s Witnesses used this verse to explain that after the preaching was virtually stopped and the League of Nations was proposed in Jan 1919 there was “1290 days” in which “anointed Christians awaken and progress spiritually”. The “1335 days” of Daniel 12:12 is said to follow on the heels of the 1290 days, and is a time when the “anointed Christians attain a happy state”.  However could it be possible that the application of Daniel 12:5-12 has not been fully understood and that it may extend to the time when “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” is “standing in a holy place”, a holy place associated with God’s holy people?

 

All four of the above mentioned prophecies picture either a ‘profaning’ or a ‘transgressing’ of the temple sanctuary (According to Jehovah’s Witnesses these are symbols of the condition of the anointed congregation), an ‘entering’ into “the land of the decoration” (a symbol of the spiritual estate of anointed remnant) or “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people” (depicting persecution and stoppage in their preaching work).  In all four of these prophecies, Jehovah’s Witnesses view the anointed as either “holy people”, “holy ones”, the “sanctuary” (Decoration / temple), “the land of the decoration” (spiritual Israel) or “the holy mountain of decoration” (Jerusalem).  In view of this it’s hard to deny that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” is something directed against or directly affects God’s “holy people” in the manner described by Daniel's prophecy.  (Mt 24:15)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

  In view of this it’s hard to deny that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” is something directed against or directly affects God’s “holy people” in the manner described by Daniel's prophecy.  (Mt 24:15)

Well then it would appear to be the GB and JW Org, as they are acting against the true Anointed ones of the remnant. They have put the Elder body in place of the Anointed and have 'advised' the Anointed not to contact each other and not to have Bible studies together. 

The GB are a false prophet. All the things they have prophesied have not happened. They continue to change the interpretation of scripture and admit to not being inspired of God. They are indeed a 'disgusting thing.. standing in a holy place'. 

[Witness]

10 hours ago, KevinM said:

All four of the above mentioned prophecies picture either a ‘profaning’ or a ‘transgressing’ of the temple sanctuary (According to Jehovah’s Witnesses these are symbols of the condition of the anointed congregation), an ‘entering’ into “the land of the decoration” (a symbol of the spiritual estate of anointed remnant) or “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people” (depicting persecution and stoppage in their preaching work).  In all four of these prophecies, Jehovah’s Witnesses view the anointed as either “holy people”, “holy ones”, the “sanctuary” (Decoration / temple), “the land of the decoration” (spiritual Israel) or “the holy mountain of decoration” (Jerusalem).  In view of this it’s hard to deny that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” is something directed against or directly affects God’s “holy people” in the manner described by Daniel's prophecy.  (Mt 24:15)

 

 You are right, it involves the “saints”/anointed today.

The “constant feature” which has been removed, is otherwise called the “daily sacrifice”. (See NKJV for an example)  The early priests were in charge of offering sacrifices on behalf of the nation of Israel, and as teachers, it was their responsibility to teach them God’s laws.  Mal 2:7

Today’s priests are to offer spiritual sacrifices of truth, and carry the laws of God on their heart.  Heb 8:10

1 Pet 2:5,9 “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"

Heb 13:15 – “Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 

 The anointed are the “temple”, as well as its members:

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?  If anyone defiles (destroys) the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." 1 Cor 3:16,17

 ^"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”  2 Thess 2:3,4

You can see that the “disgusting thing standing in the holy place” is the “man of sin”, or “lawlessness”.  The word, “sits” refers to a form of rule:

to set, appoint, to confer a kingdom on one

The “disgusting thing”/man of lawlessness rules over the “holy place”/temple/anointed ones.  It’s presence in God’s Temple profanes the sanctuary/dwelling place of God:

“He began to speak blasphemies against God: to blaspheme His name and His dwelling (tabernacle, moveable temple/”living stones”)—those who dwell in heaven. ⁷ And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. He was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”  Rev 13:6,7

10 hours ago, KevinM said:

Daniel 12:5-12 is a vision that surrounds a period of 3 ½ years that involves “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people”. (Da 12:5-7)

The scriptures use the symbolic “times”, it doesn't mean literal years. 

“Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.”  Dan 12:7

The power of the saints is shattered by the removal of their “daily sacrifice”, their responsibilities as priests are taken away. 

“Say to the rebellious people, the house of Israel: This is what the Lord God says: I have had enough of all your detestable practices, house of Israel. ⁷ When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, to occupy My sanctuary, you defiled My temple while you offered My food—the fat and the blood. You broke My covenant by all your detestable practices. ⁸ You have not kept charge of My holy things but have appointed others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.”  “This is what the Lord God says: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, may enter My sanctuary, not even a foreigner who is among the Israelites.    Ezek 44:6-9

Num.16:3-11,18,20,21,35,40     

This appointment would be the “man of lawlessness” sitting/ruling over the Temple of God. 

“Have you not cast out the priests of the Lord, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and made for yourselves priests, like the peoples of other lands, so that whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams may be a priest of things that are not gods?”  2 Chron 13:9

So, the “disgusting thing” is an “abomination”, a “detestable practice” committed within the Temple.  Foreigners or “Gentiles” occupy the sanctuary as PRIESTS taking charge of the spiritual duties that only God's priests are to permitted to do.

“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be” (let the one who reads understand), “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!”  Mark 13:14

No one is to perform the priestly duties of “daily sacrifices” except God’s priests.  How does this happen today?

w02 8/1 p. 13-14 “Representing the royal priesthood are appointed ELDERS, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not.   Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders! “

     "Have you not cast out the priests of the Lord, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites,       and made for yourselves priests, like the peoples of other lands"  2 Chron 13:9

     You have not kept charge of My holy things but have appointed others to keep       charge of My sanctuary for you.”  Eze 44:8

     “….And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them.         Rev 13:7

Can you see how the power of the holy ones has been ‘dashed to pieces’ or as some translations say, “brought to nothing" within your very own organization, where the anointed/"kings of the earth" are gathered? Rev 1:5; 5:9,10; Rev 16:13,14; 20:7-10

 

 

https://pearl-disgustingthing.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

 

[Kosonen]

On 2/20/2020 at 8:48 PM, 4Jah2me said:

GB......They are indeed a 'disgusting thing.. standing in a holy place'. 

The sins of GB are of course disgusting, but the 'disgusting thing.. standing in a holy place' is a completely different thing. Let's not forget that.

[Kosonen]

On 2/21/2020 at 6:10 AM, Witness said:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”  2 Thess 2:3,4

Have we literally seen that? No. Without twisting scriptures, the man of sin is a single person as we see it in the scripture. We should not be so unpatient that we are unable to wait him to appear. That was the point of apostle Paul, when he wrote this. Otherwise we fall into the same trap of impatience as WT organization who claim that the man of sin has already appeared in a collective form of clergy. Really why repeat the impatience of the WT organization? Please, wait instead the clear and complete fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the man of sin or man of lawlesness. 

2 Thessalonians 2:4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

At this moment nobody is "publicly showing himself to be a god". Here Apostle Paul is speaking in literal terms. So wait for a literal clear fulfilment of this prophecy.

2Thessalonians 2: 9  But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders.

What are "powerful work and lying signs and wonders"? I just googled and found an answer to that question that corresponds quite well with my understanding:

https://www.bibleref.com/2-Thessalonians/2/2-Thessalonians-2-9.html

Here is the quote from that page:

Before the coming of the day of the Lord—a time of wrath and judgment—certain events must take place. Among these are a worldwide moral and spiritual rebellion, and the appearance of a "man of lawlessness." 

Paul points to Satan as the evil person who brings the man of lawlessness into power. Satan enables him to perform "false signs and wonders." One of the miracles is mentioned in Revelation 13:13 as that of making fire drop from heaven in public view. Another miracle is that of giving the power of speech to the idol he erects (Revelations 13:15), in honor of the first beast—another end-times figure, appearing in Revelation 13:1–8. 

These so-called miracles are counterfeit according to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, but they are intended to dupe people into thinking the man of lawlessness is the Messiah. Jesus, the true Messiah, authenticated His claim to be the Promised One by performing genuine miracles. False miracles are distinguished first by the person who performs them (Matthew 7:16, 20; 1 John 4:2–6), since any person who opposes God cannot be granted God's power. True miracles also support God's Word and His truth. As the apostle John noted: "These [miracles recorded in the Gospel of John] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31)

 

 

I am appalled that many exJWs can't see the simple truth about this scripture.

[Kosonen]

On 2/21/2020 at 6:10 AM, Witness said:

The scriptures use the symbolic “times”, it doesn't mean literal years. 

Wrong!

It really means time, time and half a time, which equals to 1260 days or 42 months 30 days each. 

 

[Kosonen]

On 2/21/2020 at 6:10 AM, Witness said:

But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be” (let the one who reads understand), “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!”  Mark 13:14

 

On 2/20/2020 at 7:33 PM, KevinM said:

Right after talking to his disciples about when “the end will come” at Matthew 24:13, 14 Jesus warned of a time when his followers would “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” after which they were to “begin fleeing” from Jerusalem and the surrounding district of Judea “to the mountains”. (Mt 24:14-16) 

The holy place refered to God's temple in the holy city of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:24 There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city,(.....) 26 “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place....

For all those who confuse "the spiritual temple of God" about which apostle Paul spoke with a material God's temple or "sanctuary" or "fortress" or "the established place of his sanctuary" or "holy place" Daniel 11:30,31; 8:11,13, think about this: 

In the first century the spiritual temple consisting of anointed Christians survived, but the literal God's temple, literal holy place was destroyed. 

So it will be once more. And the language in Daniel clearly refers to a material holy place in the end time that will be desolated. Daniel speaks about a sanctuary and a 'fortress' and an 'established place of his sanctuary' and a 'holy place'. (Daniel 11:30,31; 8:11,13) 

And Daniel makes a distinction between "to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?”(Daniel 8:13)

The "holy place" must be a literal holy place, while the "army" is the army of Jehovah's witnesses, especially of the anointed Jehovah's witnesses in general.

What is then "the holy place" of Jehovah's witnesses? Foremostly the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses are "the holy place". 

There is not anything that could be a more holy place for Jehovah's witnesses on earth. I think all Jehovah's witnesses would agree on that. And the prophecy is about them.

So we should be in expectation of an attack on the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses in USA. And an arrogant president could well come there and defile the place with an idol representing a political power and mockingly claim to be more powerful than God, and mockingly announce himself God.

And because the holy place are the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses in USA, then the only "king" that can do that is the president of USA. Thus the king of the north in the end time is the president of USA. 

And in reality, all the prophecies about time, times and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days and 1290 days and the 1335th day are about the final 3 and half years up to Armageddon. So they have nothing to do with events at 1914-1922 or 1939-1945. 

And the disgusting thing is literally placed as an object. So it is not UN. And it has nothing to do with UN or the Ligue of Nations. Such explanations or just farfetched erroneous interpretations. 

 

[Witness]

Kosonen, I'll just say one thing.  You told me some months back that President Trump would send an army to Bethel, which you call "the holy place" of Matt 24:15   You expected this to happen within a few weeks of stating it, I believe.  It didn't happen.  Deut 18:20-22

If Bethel, the headquarters of a corporation, is ever raided, it is to confiscate records of child abuse.  That's it. 

You are stuck on literal time periods, just like the Watchtower.  1 Cor 2:14

 

 

 

[Kosonen]

55 minutes ago, Witness said:

Trump would send an army to Bethel, which you call "the holy place" of Matt 24:15

I am still waiting that to happen, but first Trump must pull off from Syria, according to the order of events foretold in Daniel 11:29-31:

 "At the time appointed he will return and come against the south [Syria]. But this time will not be as it was before, 30  for the ships of Kitʹtim [Russian ships, using Kittim=Cyprys for their needs] will come against him [USA and its allies], and he [USA, and president of USA] will be humbled. “He will go back [pull out of Syria] and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. 31  And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.

President Trump announced already twice that he will completely pull out of Syria, and I thought that soon after this the attack will come against the WT organization. But then suddenly Trump changed his mind and did not order complete withdrawal from Syria. But the government of Syria with the help of Russia are steadily gaining ground in Syria. So the prophecy in Daniel 11:30 is evolving toward its complete fulfillment. That scripture has been in the process of getting its fulfilment since 2015 when the Russians came to the Syrians' aid. I do not know how long it will take before USA and its allies leave Syria. It could happen fast, within months. But I can not tell exactly because the Bible does not tell a time frame for this moment. 

But Trump could score some points for his reelection if he left Syria. That was his election promise, to end stupid foreign wars and to bring troops home. So to convince his voter base that he is trustworthy, he could do this before the next elections in November. Or smarter to do that as quick as possible. We will see when this prophecy in Daniel gets its fulfillment. 

Now the US ally Turkey tries directly to prevent the government of Syria to take control of the Idlib region in Syria. Turkey has deployed there thousands of military personel and equipment. 

But according to the prophecy in Daniel this should not prevent that prophecy to get fulfilled. Just a little delay, until the right time is in. Because this will lead to the beginning of the 1335 days, including the 1260, 1290 days mentioned in Daniel 12.

Very interesting time now and it would be very sad not to understand these prophecies now when they are in the process of fulfillment.

[Kosonen]

On 2/20/2020 at 7:33 PM, KevinM said:

Also do to the similarities in the language used in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 8:9-25 show a possibility they are describing the same thing and does this suggest Anglo America is the king of the north? 

Yes, they speak about the same thing. In addition Daniel 7 speaking about the little horn that grows in power and then persecutes the saints during 3 and half biblical years is about the same king and the same persecution and about the same time period.

And Daniel 12 talking about time time and half a time and 1335 days including 1260 and 1290th day are about the same period. Those explanations in Daniel 12 are just clarifications to those previous visions.

And it is important to understand that the putting in place the disgusting thing that is accompanied with removal of the constant feature, marks the count down to 1335th day. That day will bring some happy relief in connection with the comming of God's kingdom. Daniel 12:11,12.

Thus Daniel 11:30 and forward have not yet been fulfilled.

[Witness]

On 2/22/2020 at 3:09 AM, Kosonen said:

Paul points to Satan as the evil person who brings the man of lawlessness into power. Satan enables him to perform "false signs and wonders." One of the miracles is mentioned in Revelation 13:13 as that of making fire drop from heaven in public view.

God said His WORD is like fire.  Jer 23:29; Heb 12:29; Ps 29:7  

It is a symbol of authority - power.  Do you see a literal dragon of Revelation breathing literal fire through its pawns/false prophet and organization?  Rev 13:1,2,11,12

The "two witnesses" of Revelation 11 breath "fire from their mouths".  Is this literal; or is it instead their speaking the Word of God?  Rev 11:1-5

Satan's false prophet of Rev 13:11,12 has been given the authority to speak Satan's "fire", from the "dragon" to DECEIVE and captivate its listeners with lies.  Rev 16:13,14

On 2/22/2020 at 3:09 AM, Kosonen said:

Have we literally seen that? No. Without twisting scriptures, the man of sin is a single person as we see it in the scripture.

Rev 13:10 - Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

This is the number of the BEAST of Revelation 13:1,2, and is the "man of lawlessness".  

ánthrōpos – "man, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men (Mt 4:19, 12:12, etc.).

The Wild Beast from the Sea is an organization of people; yet, at its heart is a controlling force comprised of an "army" that conquers the saints.  Isa 57:20; Rev 13:5-8

Why is this Beast given three sixes?

1.  The spirit-force that drives it:  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon,

2.  The Beast itself that speaks fire from Satan:  "out of the mouth of the beast"

3.  The Beast from the Earth/false prophet that directs the Beast and also speaks fire from Satan:  "and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 

For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.  Rev 16:13,14

On 2/22/2020 at 11:48 AM, Kosonen said:

President Trump announced already twice that he will completely pull out of Syria, and I thought that soon after this the attack will come against the WT organization. But then suddenly Trump changed his mind and did not order complete withdrawal from Syria.

Do you think you have led others to believe what you thought was true?

As JWs, we were led to believe in wrong assumptions also.

"In the past, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 when World War I started. We thought that Jehovah “cut short” those days in 1918 when the war ended so that the remaining anointed ones on earth could preach the good news to all nations. (Matthew 24:21, 22) After that preaching work would be completed, we expected that Satan’s world would be destroyed. So we thought that there were three parts to the great tribulation. It would begin in 1914, it would be interrupted in 1918, and it would finish at Armageddon. ws13 7/15 p. 3-4"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Raphael]

@KevinM, please can you send me a message when you get this?