Revelation 5:9,10 - "On the Earth" vs. "Over the Earth"

[Witness]

On 6/9/2020 at 8:57 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

#8e44ad;">Hybrids. Mixture of angels and humans. 

#8e44ad">Perhaps artist want to show Unity and Uniformity. 

Perhaps so, in a fleshly way!  

In its simplest form, I understand WT’s ideology on “organization” as two-fold.  Both the “earthly” (in the form of the WT) and the “heavenly” where the anointed are, with both systems reflecting each other. Yet, on the earth, the elders are the “princes” and apparently the priests.   In a literal one-place heaven, the anointed are the kings/priests. I see them mirroring each other in a sense, with God and Jesus supposedly over all.  There is little to none information, especially recently, of the anointed as God’s temple.  That would detract from their doctrine that the earthly organization is a facet of God’s encompassing organization.  The word “temple” and its spiritual meaning escapes the minds of JWs.  JWs are now being told that they are part of that temple; especially helpful in this, is their standing doctrine of the “great crowd” with every JW as part of that. (Rev 7:9,10,13-15)

When the scriptures speak of the 144,000 sitting on thrones, I view it as their literal understanding of what it must be like; well structured according to our earthly terms.  This is from the minds of earthly men, not from spiritual men. 

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”  1 Cor 2:14

Heaven cannot be defined as one place.  It is a spiritual existence.  When Jesus was resurrected, he appeared and disappeared among his disciples, before he “ascended” or rose to that spiritual existence, until the time of the end when he will again, be seen on the earth.  Under the New Covenant, this is no different than what his angel servants/members of his body – his Bride – will experience in the Kingdom. They have within them a spirit life, and their humanly life.

“Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.”  John 3:6

The members of the new creation are both this spiritual state of “heaven” and of the fleshly state of “earth”.  They are the firstborn of “righteous” children in God’s Kingdom, and the first after Christ, to inherit the earth.  Ps 37:11 They are patterned after Christ, not Adam.  2 Pet 3:13,14; 1:4

Those of the “second resurrection” also will receive their inheritance of the earth. 

 

"sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is* from heaven. 48 Like the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; like the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven." 1 Cor 15:4-49

This describes the new “heaven” and the new “earth”. 

Isa 65:17; Rev 21:1,5

The priests with Christ will “hear” God’s word, and together will relay it to all of His children, who will be resurrected onto the earth.  (Mal 2:7)

 

 

[Space Merchant]

11 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

The 'teaching' in the JW religion (1960's & 70's) used to be that the Elders would be Princes here on the Earth in the 'new 'world'. So they taught that the 144,000 would be up in heaven and the Elders would be in charge here on Earth.  It seemed not to be mentioned from then onward but I think the Elders do 'fancy themselves' as princes though.  

Do you have a source? Those of Zion are to operate as such, this is elementary Bible knowledge concerning the chosen ones. There is notion to those who are tasked to teach the people of God in the aftermath, so I do not see what you are conveying here.

You seem to be missing the context regarding the verse with that statement.

12 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I am not going to get into debate with SM about Strong's etc. My point was the CCJW / JW Org / Watchtower, printed quite plainly in their Interlinear Translation that it says 'on the earth', but then they print in the NWT 'over the earth' 

There is no debate, they are not in error in this regard. Regardless, it is only a problem if there is a Hebraic/Greek violation, then you would have a problem and in their part, it would be a critical problem. As for the I.L, it does not use TR, the TR is a later source, which the 1611 uses.

 

Therefore "on the earth" and "over the earth" have no issue. ON and OVER are both the same Strong's. UPON is another one, if that is, you checked the verse on Bible Hub.

14 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So they have written both themselves. Only one can be right.

The Strong's number is exactly the same, therefore they are both right. It is only an error or a mis-translation if the number does not line up with the source. So for example, if 1909 was somehow 1988, you'll have a problem.

15 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

If the true translation from the GREEK is 'on the earth' then that is what is should be in the NWT. 

You are going off on your own exegesis at this rate. Translations of any kind stick to, or try to stick to the originally source, going with what I know about the NWT, regarding this verse, they are sticking to the original source. Granted I mentioned Greek Strong's, they used Westcott-Hort, which is the Batman to The Trinity's Joker, in this sense.

42 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Only one can be right.

Granted G#1909 is in use, they are, as is with most translations for this verse, are in the right. Both of them.

44 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

The question is, Is anyone actually being guided by God's Holy Spirit to write TRUTH ?

Yes. The writers were inspired to write the Scriptures, as for after the death of the Apostles, spirit led ones picked up and or found the manuscripts and translated the Hebrew and Greek text. Sadly, due to the craziness that is Christianity in the past, people came up with their own narratives and later manuscripts were formed with errors, which resulted in some translations having errors and or not even correctly lining up with the Strong's.

46 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Is Strong's guided by Holy Spirit ?

By those who provided the Textual Criticism, yes. If it were not for them, Yahweh would be seen as "female", Jesus would have been seen as a hater of women and or insulting the poor, as is with having the ability to make tress burst into song, and being able to grow into the size of a giant.

Makes you wonder how things would be like if it were not for Textual Criticism and Strong's. You'd probably believe today that of inanimate objects "literally" sing about Jesus. Or to the JWs here, they would think and or preach in their gospel that Jehovah is a "she". Such things are absurd, and we should be thankful for those who did what they did, even giving their lives in the process. Bible History is interesting, of course.

That being said, I strongly urge you to read and or learn about Strong's.

I suggest you start here: https://biblehub.com/strongs.htm

But I do warn you, there are some Strong's out there that apply later manuscripts, which can result in some of their own additions, to which both Jews and Muslims today often point out. That is a story for another day.

[Srecko Sostar]

On 6/9/2020 at 4:02 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

On 6/9/2020 at 12:42 AM, Outta Here said:

Check Eph 4:6

God is "over all". 

Human, angels, 144000 are not. Or?

+ Rev 5 10

Upon all OR over all ? what is more correct? @4Jah2me showed how JW have two Bibles with different translation. 

[Space Merchant]

16 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

+ Rev 5 10

Upon all OR over all ? what is more correct? @4Jah2me showed how JW have two Bibles with different translation. 

They are both correct. Case and point.

• https://studybible.info/strongs/G1909
• https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1909/epi.htm
• https://biblehub.com/greek/1909.htm

As I told @4Jah2me , the same thing. granted all the roots point to 1909, there is no violation of Scripture in the Greek text. Translations indeed look different, but each word still lines up accordingly with the Strong's number itself.

Now, here is an legitimate example. I linked to @4Jah2me 1 Timothy 3:16. There IS A VIOLATION in this verse. This Strong's was added G#2316. The other violates, in passage form would be Acts 8:37, this verse does not exist, hence omitted. Another would be Revelations 1:11 whereas the KJV added a sentence to this verse, likewise to 1 John 5:7.

Is it not wise to address this information instead of something that is already deemed as correct?

[Evacuated]

18 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW have two Bibles with different translation. 

That is rather poor research then. I know JW with Bibles with 4 different translations for that verse, and that is just looking through 10 Bibles of the many available. So, as you are already aware of Biblehub, then why not make your own mind up?

[Space Merchant]

2 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

That is rather poor research then. I know JW with Bibles with 4 different translations for that verse, and that is just looking through 10 Bibles of the many available. So, as you are already aware of Biblehub, then why not make your own mind up?

Granted due to Srecko's past, he does not like using Bible Hub because it, as with the to others, will be an instrument that would engineer their own demise 6 ways through Sunday.

[Srecko Sostar]

11 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Biblehub

Is this internet page approved by GB and WT? Does WT endorse JW's to go on Biblehub or to go only to official JW org sites that have best bible translation and brand new interpretations ? :)))) 

 

[Evacuated]

There are many versions of this diagram available.

You can see hows the word epi is used in scripture. Interpret it as you will according to context.

[Space Merchant]

@Srecko Sostar You do not need to rely on Jehovah's Witnesses for Strong's. Also no one is speaking of Prepositions and masculines/feminines. We are on the topic of Concordances..... As for the word in which @Outta Here is in the right, as with the Strong's. There is no change, there is no misinterpretation. Therefore, there is no error.

Even all this time, your nature remains the same - deviation.

 

That being said, the claim of yours is false granted we have the concordances and early manuscripts if need be, be it public. That single image does not prove your case here.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Oh dear. I don't think SM actually wants to understand what I'm saying. 

What I'm saying is the CCJW / Watchtower are using both 'on the earth' and 'over the earth' in written translations. 

BUT they are teaching only 'over the earth'. Because it lines up with what they want to teach. 

If they are writing both and only teaching one, then they are withholding the other viewpoint. 

Could that be classed as deception ? Because if they are writing both, then they must believe both to be true. 

If a scripture has more than one possible explanation, shouldn't all explanations be given ? 

SM says both are right. So why then does the CCJW only teach one of them ? 

Do they actually forget that they have written the Interlinear Translation, or do they forget that people still use it ? 

Is it possible that the Anointed will be here on Earth, if only 'part time', to teach 'new scrolls' that are to be opened ? 

[Srecko Sostar]

8 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do they actually forget that they have written the Interlinear Translation, or do they forget that people still use it ? 

As @Outta Here give information, WT have various Bible versions,  translations.

But only last edition have to be count as "best Bible" :))) and to be use for spreading "spiritual food" aka truth that leads to eternal life. Yes, he must be right. You can read whatever Bible Translation you like, but confirmation about what is meaning of text need to be made by Watchtower study edition. ;)) 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

BUT they are teaching only 'over the earth'. Because it lines up with what they want to teach. 

If they are writing both and only teaching one, then they are withholding the other viewpoint. 

 

I often refer to their own Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, since many times their translation  on the right is in favor of their doctrine.