BETHEL'S BIG SECRET

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Sounds like an opinion to me.  Where are the facts to support this?  Have you talked with him personally? 

The facts were presented.

The events of 1900-1939 whereas Jim Crow Laws enabled these things, however, a neutral group, the Bible Students were not Racist, mainly in regards to the events of the bloody summer of 1921 whereas in some instances Bible Students, both Black and White interacted with each other despite the fact there was a Race Riot taking place, and the actions of the Jim Crow mental folks running around parts of the US.

https://www.history.com/topics/roaring-twenties/tulsa-race-massacre

This isn't anything new nor is it a mystery, likewise with the Act of 1964 - https://www.eeoc.gov/statutes/title-vii-civil-rights-act-1964

Bible Students in the era of the riots - http://reddirtimports.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-that-poster-of-judge-rutherford.html (alluded to archived sources)

Tulsa was brought up in a discussion before - 

 

If Bible Students were truly racist in those days, then there would be a chance that Jehovah's Witnesses may not exist today. Let alone this example, which is fact and true, below:

Quote

Richard J. Hill (who is Black) and Arthur Claus (who was white) although different Bible Student church congregations, were friends. The white Bible Student checked up on the Black Bible Student, even though he knew the risks if caught, he made the decision to do so anyways.

If either of them were exposed, punishment, and in Hill's case, he would have gotten it worse because he was a black man.

So if your video states Bible Students were racist and segregated on purpose because of it, why does an instance like, one of several, this exist in the history of Bible Students?

That being said, for someone who is as old as you, this is tragic, you do not this history, let alone a former JW, whereas JWs are aware of some history, granted they speak of a late pastor of old.

I need not talk to him, the fact that the comments that say nearly the same thing I said, were blocked by him. He was very clear in the video to have expressed an opinion, for if he did use facts, this information would have been known, elsewhere, others who speak of Bible Students have mentioned facts, hence why I made the remark to neutrality; granted, their stance was clear early on prior to the riots.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Although in reality it IS just like any other organization, the Wt organization teaches that it belongs to God.  It is "spirit-directed" according to them, which means, "spirit breathed", or "inspired".  (Rev 13:15)   All decisions come from "Jehovah", "Jehovah's organization", and down to the uninspired GB.  When the nation of Israel was under God's direction, nothing was hidden from His nation.  His laws and instructions were clear, concise and taught to each member of Israel, as well as any foreigner who joined them.  

This is irrelevant to the claims made against you.

Are Bible Students Racist as this former Bethel member said vs the facts that state otherwise?

Like I said, the facts are everything.

In regards to Archived data.

In regards to calling out opinion hit pieces with legitimate fact.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

he Wt compares itself to Moses leading God's people through the wilderness.

So why did he mislead with the example of Racism? We can start there.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Since that comparison is made, then all of  Wt's history, their past publications said to be under the direction of God, should be open to every JW to learn from; not concealed as it is.   

Archived information can be found, even by the general public, i.e. the information I used against you in our debate about CTR. This isn't concealed, even the commenters said it before they got blocked.

That being said, the below is both an opinion and brief facts I mention from our debate the first time; some of the sources I used traced back to early 1900s concerning the Free Mason claim - 

On 2/5/2018 at 11:52 AM, Space Merchant said:

There is a guy who has studied Russell for well over 50+ years, and some who have somewhat of extensive knowledge of Russell. I myself don't think he is a Mason, since the Masons weren't really a fan of him, he spoke ill of the Masons in one instance, and those who claim that he is a Mason don't have Lodge Registry information or Lodge number, status and tenet to back it up, even former Masons today have said the same thing, they either don't know who Russell is or can't seem to find accurate information of him on Mason registries. The head honcho who has the most knowledge on this man isn't Jehovah's Witnesses, tend to put blame on JWs for something they didn't do i.e. the monument near the grave-site of Russell, he says a JW had it erected, but the reality was it was a Bible Student who had it set up, things like that. Despite his disdain for JWs, he will do whatever it takes to defend Taze Russell to those who keep attacking him.

I have also taken the time to do research of the grave-site, which puts my conclusion of this man to where it is now. That being said, a lot of conspiracy theorists and Anti-Christians/Religions will try to put some religious leaders in the lime light for Masonry without getting to the core of what is true.

I have some good sources, I may post them up later, even a few neutral websites that JWs and others are found on, even former JWs, as well as current and former Bible Students, another site whereas all Christians are present as well as "Bible Seekers" for we call these guys as such because they want to seek scriptural information, depending on the topic of course.

 

[Dmitar]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You justify other people's actions nicely. So, can one act unethically, morally questionable, or even unjustly because “unbelieving” people and (one other kind of Christians) Bible Students and later JWs lived in a time period when racism (or anything else) was the norm?

What's the difference between being persecuted because of race and being persecuted for one's faith? Can you give me an example where Bible Students rejected people because of the color of their skin? How about Jehovah's Witnesses?

Your mission is to prosecute Jehovah's Witnesses because it's written is scripture. Reference, 1 John 2:18

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Can you provide evidence from WT publications from those period of time where they condemning racism and / or justifying segregation? Which WT publication from that time says that one should listen to Caesar more than God in matter of racism and segregation?

I believe the remark goes toward separation of church and State. Can you give me an example where in scripture, Jesus mentioned the opposite of what is referenced in Luke 20:25

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This only confirms that the manifestation of religious beliefs can be manifested in at least two ways. Consistent and fanatical adherence to doctrines at the cost of ridicule, rejection, persecution and even death , to the point that compromises are made in order not to experience condemnation from the environment and society, under the pretext that it is okay because God does not ask for more. 

How do you define this pearl toward Jesus and the Apostles? Are you not part of society? Are you not condemning? Sometimes, thoughts amaze me.

32 minutes ago, Witness said:

Although in reality it IS just like any other organization, the Wt organization teaches that it belongs to God.  It is "spirit-directed" according to them, which means, "spirit breathed", or "inspired". 

How does this wisdom of Pearl Doxsey compare?

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 1 Corinthians 11:16 Verse Concepts But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

[Dmitar]

On 2/10/2022 at 6:17 AM, Witness said:

Here's the link:  https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/

I've never heard of a secret portal only accessible for supposed elite "members" who read at a blog. 

Once again, stellar minds

[Space Merchant]

@Dmitar Well that was quite the mic drop with that screenshot. It would be interesting to see what claims now will be made by the latter in that regard. Not to mention the fact people of that site, as is with the situation on YouTube, has the ability to remove/block/silent people, essentially marking a response as spam. The irony here is there is little to no chance whatever is in that section of that forum, is archived for the public compared to the accusation made in the video.

[Dmitar]

The conversation has shifted to include racism. In the time of Paul's ministry, was there racism?

2:19-22

Around the time Paul was writing these words, arguing for racial unity in Christ, Jews and Syrians were massacring each other in the streets of Caesarea, a city where he had been not long before (Acts 23:23). Here Paul does not simply mimic a common stand against racism in his culture; he condemns racism and segregation of a religious institution, even though he has to challenge his culture to do so.

Was there racism between the Jews and Gentiles?

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Therefore, these so called publication are not really concealed.

Because you were never a JW, you don't know how the JW mind works.  I am sorry, but you don't "know" everything, SM.

"Downloading our publications from anywhere but jw.org is potentially dangerous. Jehovah has entrusted the responsibility of providing spiritual food to “the faithful and discreet slave” alone. (Matt 24:45) That “slave” uses only its official websites to publish spiritual food—www.jw.org, tv.jw.org, and wol.jw.org. And we have only three official apps for mobile devices—JW Language^®, JW Library^®, and JW Library Sign Language^®. We can trust these products to be free of advertisements or contamination by Satan’s world. If the spiritual food passes through other channels, there is no guarantee that it has not been altered or contaminated.—Ps. 18:26;19:8.   w18 April p. 30-31

The average, faithful JW will take this to heart and avoid what the internet has to offer for researching their publications. With this in mind, and the restricted food available to JWs on the website, the past publications that go beyond what they can access in "their" online library, are concealed.  

[Dmitar]

48 minutes ago, Witness said:

With this in mind, and the restricted food available to JWs on the website, the past publications that go beyond what they can access in "their" online library, are concealed.  

Is it okay for Jehovah's Witnesses to watch PORN on the internet? How about worshiping Satan publications? How about false religion publicans that tell people, it's okay to kill a human being in the name of patronage.

There is good quality spiritual food and then there's spiritual food that disqualifies. Where do you draw the line? Once the wheat produces weeds? I believe that lesson was learned already, why would you invoke it again.

Chapter 11 - A Compendious View of the Christian Life

With whom, then, are we to associate? With the righteous, He says again, speaking figuratively; for everything "which parts the hoof and chews the cud is clean." For the parting of the hoof indicates the equilibrium of righteousness, and ruminating points to the proper food of righteousness, the word, which enters from without, like food, by instruction, but is recalled from the mind, as from the stomach, to rational recollection. And the spiritual man, having the word in his mouth, ruminates the spiritual food; and righteousness parts the hoof rightly, because it sanctifies us in this life, and sends us on our way to the world to come.

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Once again, stellar minds

Do you remember that I told you there was a forum that was last used in 2016?  It can be accessed from the blog, the link is there for anyone to check out; and at that time, as is the case of ALL forums, people were approved to be part of it. I had to be approved to join THIS forum.   ANYONE can still read there with no restrictions (unlike here, which sets a time limit and requires membership for unlimited reading access).  Even though THAT forum is no longer used, obviously, you were able to access the information.  At the blog, ANYONE can read with no restrictions.  So, what are you getting at?  Are you saying it is a "secret portal", when the link is freely accessed from the blog page?  

 

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Because you were never a JW, you don't know how the JW mind works.  I am sorry, but you don't "know" everything, SM.

You do not have to be a JW to locate Archived information, Reslight is not a Jehovah's Witness and he has publications dating back to the late 1800s, The Wiki have no affiliation with JWs, yet they have citations and sources that can trace back to old publications, the same sources which was used to refuted you back in 2018 when you attest to the Masonry remarks. I have found even linked sources of which are identical.

This has nothing to do with being a JW or not, the fact you attempt to use this remark again to cowardly hide from attesting to the the questionable video is damning on your part. Like I said, you are not of the government, yet you tried to give sources and information on the govt, likewise with banks, knowing very well the source you used was a conspiracy theorist one. These silly remarks you have to avoid using, it isn't a good look, as is your ignoring the fact that the YouTuber's opinion made a bold face lie in regards to the first example, but not too long ago you attest it is wrong to give a false witness.

This has nothing to do with knowing everything, it is knowing what is fact, therefore, your source has bore a false witness.

This is ironic, you not a Bethel member, so you wouldn't know anything, if you want to play that game.

Your source claim Bible Students were racist in the early 1900s, sadly, they are not, if that was the case, the White Bible Student as is others would NOT take such a risk, and JW would not be existing today.

Granted how EXJWs claim JWs cannot use critical thinking, this seems to be an err, granted you exposed yourself for not adhering to such, so much for God's chosen.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

"Downloading our publications from anywhere but jw.org is potentially dangerous.

Note - ARCHIVED. This is vastly different from the claim you are attesting to. The reason as for why JWs mentioned that is because of JWFacts sources, the same source of which you used in the past to obscure information, to which you were called out for, many, many times, i.e. our discussion on the Spiritual House, which we did twice.

The JWs issue has nothing to do with Archived sources, in fact, they take issue with those who twist said sources, like you attesting to the idea that somehow a pastor is affiliated with Freemasonry whereas JWs and the Archives, state otherwise.

This link is an example of that, our first debate for even back then you made claims that were found out to be unfounded, only because of Archived information I used as a source vs. what you have at the time (PEarl Doxsey and a ExJW who is somewhat leaning on the Spiritualist side (Spiritism)) - 

 

Nice try trying to play spin doctor, but I have been debating enough to know how people attempt such.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The average, faithful JW will take this to heart and avoid what the internet has to offer for researching their publications.

The average JW avoid sources that twist their publications, they do not avoid Archives, example - The Kusserow Archives (Source - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum). ExJWs are not familiar with archives, remains, this is why the average JW, as is others who are aware of JWs are capable of dealing with anyone twisting the facts.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

With this in mind, and the restricted food available to JWs on the website, the past publications that go beyond what they can access in "their" online library, are concealed.  

There is no evidenced this information is concealed if Archives exist. If there were NO Archives that are public, then you'd have a case.

That being said, everyone here can now see so called God's chosen, is attempting to use deception.

• Fact - Bible Students were never racist folk in the era of those who held a Jim Crow mentality. (This is evident in the source presented which is 100% factual)
• Fact - Publications dating back to the late 1800s/early 1900s are not concealed information granted that Archives of said information exists (example - https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=watchtower), many sources and examples, especially those who studied the history of Bible Students, let alone pastors of old, namely CTR.
• Fact - Anyone can find this information, it is not JW exclusive.
• Fact - Jehovah's Witnesses avoid sources that taint/defile their publications (example - JWFacts, avoidjw.org); put in a negative light (The reason they make that state, mainly when they speak of apostasy), however, they take no issue with Archives, granted, they have the same identical information themselves, hence the remark about the Holocaust one and or Tulsa. Most JWs are aware of this, example, even the ones here, JW Insider, Outta Here, Anna, etc.
• Fact - The mentioned historical accounts did in fact take place, therefore, the YouTuber not mentioning it was a means to obscure when such a history, mainly in February, is known by the majority.
• Fact - The black man and the white man were indeed Bible Students who looked out for each other, thus disqualifies the YouTuber's claim of Racism.

That being said, you have no glass for the murky water you want us to drink from. And to quote Solider of God who spoke with someone who supposedly stated he was chosen "With that tongue, a child of God you are not - go repent for you are lost if you cannot make the distinction between Truth and Untruth."

You can make your disagreements about JWs known, but the problem with you is you rely way too much on misinformation, therefore, putting you in the category of those who adhere to falsehood.

Not a good look for one who claims to be chosen, so much so, even another one who says he is chosen, called you out before for the same reason.

Now I can make remarks of his second example, and in it, he did the same with example 1 regarding race, bias opinion without fact.

Another Archive - https://wtarchive.wordpress.com/english/zions-watch-tower/ (This one should be known to you because you teamed up with 2 Trinitarians to deal with a Novice JW)

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The average, faithful JW will take this to heart and avoid what the internet has to offer for researching their publications. With this in mind, and the restricted food available to JWs on the website, the past publications that go beyond what they can access in "their" online library, are concealed.

Do you believe those that get kicked out of a church should be published, and the reason why? Such as being a fornicator? What publications are you referring to other than administrative? If yes! Why do you believe the Vatican should show you their administrative documents? What special privilege do you want to hold?

Why it hasn't dawned on you, these "obtuse" demands, actually go before secular courts to administer their results to ALL religious institutions.

[Dmitar]

2 minutes ago, Witness said:

Do you remember that I told you there was a forum that was last used in 2016?  It can be accessed from the blog, the link is there for anyone to check out; and at that time, as is the case of ALL forums, people were approved to be part of it. I had to be approved to join THIS forum. 

Do you remember, I told you that, It's still there under the 4Woman blog? And if they made any "revisions" or "adjustment" to reflect something differently, they haven't. Yet, the blogger Pearl Doxsey and her husband are still members of that forum. Therefore, that still stands as indicated. That's 6 years of deception.

Care to continue with your false presentation?

 

[Space Merchant]

@Witness I made this separate from the other response because you evaded this numerous times with remarks and claims.

Were the Bible Students racist in the early 1900s as the YouTuber attested to with his bias opinion in his first example - Yes or No.

If the publications were indeed concealed, why is it the Archives exist, which is actually known to JWs? 

Why claim JWs do not know about publications in the Archives when numerous times they/ even by example, present  or cite it (i.e. some of JWI's remarks, Anna, etc. even Bible Students, Reslight), even on this forum, as is with the examples mentioned on other forums and YouTubers who are JW?

1 John 4:1 is being used in regards to you.

This are direct questions, I suggest you not use remarks to dance around them, otherwise, it would simply expose you to everyone here of you attempting to push misinformation, as you have done many times before.