Coincidence or Correlation?

[Space Merchant]

16 hours ago, Witness said:

I don’t recall saying he was a Freemason, I said he was highly influenced by them, which the video clearly shows. 

I have read various write-ups about the history of the Masons, but I am not at all an expert on their teachings.  I can say, that what I have read, doesn’t make them out to be a benign religion.  I will ask you, since I do believe from what you say, that you are up on who they are.  Do they believe Jesus was only a man?  If so, that is a destructive sect.  But, I would need proof of that.

Are you familiar with this source?  It doesn’t appear that he is bad-mouthing the Masons while on their home turf, at least not when giving this presentation.  Skip down to page 914

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/russell/crs.pdf

 

That your only source? I am sure there is probably more than that you can sure in terms of influence (or high influence), as well as the other things listed in blue in my previous post. I read page 914 and onward, somewhat contradicting to your claims in the pages ahead, this influence you speak of isn't that much sufficient as you claim in your source. Got anymore?

That being said, people who seem to state one has an influence in something lean towards accepting said conclusions, therefore, those who "think" someone is something may feel as though said person is something they assume and you are not the first to say this so-and-so is a Mason or have masonic influence.

Anyways this is what he said: Although I have never been a Mason ... Something I do seems to be the same as Masons do, I don't know what it is; but they often give me all kinds of grips and I give them back, then I tell them I don't know anything about it except just a few grips that have come to me naturally.

Note:Throughout his ministry he said that he believed Christian identity is incompatible with Freemasonry. He described Freemasonry, Knights of Pythias, Theosophy, and other such groups as "grievous evils" and "unclean".

He made this comment at a Masonic Hall in San Francisco during a "speaking tour" around June 1913.

 

Plus most Christians back then are neutral or not a fan of Masons, others tend to reason with them, attempt to convert them.

[Witness]

 

In his speech, he continually mixed Masonic teachings with his own “Christian” teachings.  He professed to have close friends that were Masons. 

"I am a Free Mason. I am a free and accepted Mason, if I may carry the matter to its full length, because that is what our Masonic brethren like to tell us, that they are free and accepted Masons. That is their style of putting it. Now I am a free and accepted Mason. I trust we all are. But not just after the style of our Masonic brethren. We have no quarrel with them. I am not going to say a word against Free Masons. In fact, some of my very dear friends are Masons, and I can appreciate that there are certain very precious truths that are held in part by our Masonic friends. I have talked to them at times, and they have said, How do you know about all of these things? We thought nobody knew anything about these things except those who had access to our very highest logic. I said that I had been in conference with the Great Master Workman, the Lord himself, and I have secret information through the Holy Spirit and guidance in respect to what the Bible says, and that contains all the truth, I believe, on every subject. And so if we talk to our Masonic friends about the Temple and its meaning, and about being good Masons, and about the Great Pyramid, which is the very emblem they use, and what the Great Pyramid signifies, our Masonic friends are astonished. One who had been a Mason a long time recently bought a lot of books that had the Great Pyramid discussed, and sent them to I am sure a thousand Masons. He paid for them and sent them out at his own expense. He wanted the Masons to see something about the Great Pyramid. He knew they were greatly interested in that.

Although I have never been a Mason, I have heard that in Masonry they have something which very closely illustrates all of this. It is in riding the goat, etc. And the Bible calls for the goat, you know. The Bible tells you that your goat, which you have to ride more or less every day, is your own flesh. Our Masonic friends have it down very fine. I do not know where they got it so well. I have often wondered where they found out so many of the secrets of our High and Accepted Order of Masonry. From the time you come in to be a member of the Royal Priesthood."

You don’t seem to understand that Watchtower’s leaders are not only double-tongued but adept at creating smokescreens.  Although evidence appears to show no indication that he was registered as a Mason, he was still greatly influenced by Masonry. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

59 minutes ago, Witness said:

"I am a Free Mason. I am a free and accepted Mason, if I may carry the matter to its full length, because that is what our Masonic brethren like to tell us, that they are free and accepted Masons. That is their style of putting it. Now I am a free and accepted Mason. I trust we all are. But not just after the style of our Masonic brethren. We have no quarrel with them. I am not going to say a word against Free Masons. In fact, some of my very dear friends are Masons, and I can appreciate that there are certain very precious truths that are held in part by our Masonic friends. I have talked to them at times, and they have said, How do you know about all of these things? We thought nobody knew anything about these things except those who had access to our very highest logic. I said that I had been in conference with the Great Master Workman, the Lord himself, and I have secret information through the Holy Spirit and guidance in respect to what the Bible says, and that contains all the truth, I believe, on every subject. And so if we talk to our Masonic friends about the Temple and its meaning, and about being good Masons, and about the Great Pyramid, which is the very emblem they use, and what the Great Pyramid signifies, our Masonic friends are astonished. One who had been a Mason a long time recently bought a lot of books that had the Great Pyramid discussed, and sent them to I am sure a thousand Masons. He paid for them and sent them out at his own expense. He wanted the Masons to see something about the Great Pyramid. He knew they were greatly interested in that.

Although I have never been a Mason, I have heard that in Masonry they have something which very closely illustrates all of this. It is in riding the goat, etc. And the Bible calls for the goat, you know. The Bible tells you that your goat, which you have to ride more or less every day, is your own flesh. Our Masonic friends have it down very fine. I do not know where they got it so well. I have often wondered where they found out so many of the secrets of our High and Accepted Order of Masonry. From the time you come in to be a member of the Royal Priesthood."

You don’t seem to understand that Watchtower’s leaders are not only double-tongued but adept at creating smokescreens.  Although evidence appears to show no indication that he was registered as a Mason, he was still greatly influenced by Masonry. 

1.) Who is the speaker in the above quote ... and WHEN and WHERE was it spoken? 

2.) Where is a reference that we can look up to check it?

 

Thanks.

[JW Insider]

On 2/7/2018 at 1:51 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Who is the speaker in the above quote ... and WHEN and WHERE was it spoken? 

2.) Where is a reference that we can look up to check it?

I have it somewhere. Hopefully someone has a link to it online.

It's from a speech by Russell, as reported in the 1913 Convention Report of the International Bible Students.

The commentary here: https://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/russell_mason/wasrussellmason.html is as good a place as any to start. The portion above is Russell's long, drawn-out analogy and comparison to show how true Christians are really "Masons" only in a scriptural sense even though they don't belong to any Masonic Order. It's curious that he spent so much time accommodating the Masonic philosophy into his speech. I'm assuming he knew that Masons were in the audience, or he had been recently questioned about his choice of Masonic symbols and language.

[Witness]

52 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Who is the speaker in the above quote ... and WHEN and WHERE was it spoken? 

2.) Where is a reference that we can look up to check it?

It is the pdf file I gave to Space Merchant:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/russell/crs.pdf

It begins at page 914

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Witness said:

 

In his speech, he continually mixed Masonic teachings with his own “Christian” teachings.  He professed to have close friends that were Masons. 

"I am a Free Mason. I am a free and accepted Mason, if I may carry the matter to its full length, because that is what our Masonic brethren like to tell us, that they are free and accepted Masons. That is their style of putting it. Now I am a free and accepted Mason. I trust we all are. But not just after the style of our Masonic brethren. We have no quarrel with them. I am not going to say a word against Free Masons. In fact, some of my very dear friends are Masons, and I can appreciate that there are certain very precious truths that are held in part by our Masonic friends. I have talked to them at times, and they have said, How do you know about all of these things? We thought nobody knew anything about these things except those who had access to our very highest logic. I said that I had been in conference with the Great Master Workman, the Lord himself, and I have secret information through the Holy Spirit and guidance in respect to what the Bible says, and that contains all the truth, I believe, on every subject. And so if we talk to our Masonic friends about the Temple and its meaning, and about being good Masons, and about the Great Pyramid, which is the very emblem they use, and what the Great Pyramid signifies, our Masonic friends are astonished. One who had been a Mason a long time recently bought a lot of books that had the Great Pyramid discussed, and sent them to I am sure a thousand Masons. He paid for them and sent them out at his own expense. He wanted the Masons to see something about the Great Pyramid. He knew they were greatly interested in that.

Although I have never been a Mason, I have heard that in Masonry they have something which very closely illustrates all of this. It is in riding the goat, etc. And the Bible calls for the goat, you know. The Bible tells you that your goat, which you have to ride more or less every day, is your own flesh. Our Masonic friends have it down very fine. I do not know where they got it so well. I have often wondered where they found out so many of the secrets of our High and Accepted Order of Masonry. From the time you come in to be a member of the Royal Priesthood."

You don’t seem to understand that Watchtower’s leaders are not only double-tongued but adept at creating smokescreens.  Although evidence appears to show no indication that he was registered as a Mason, he was still greatly influenced by Masonry. 

 

No need to bring up the Watchtower and or JWs because the focus here is a pastor by the name of Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Zion Watchtower (not the current one), as well as part of the Bible Student Movement, for Jehovah’s Witnesses were not a thing until later on, even though their Predecessor is the Bible Student Movement. Pretty much everything that is before them becoming the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and expanding, years after CTR’s death.

You said before that CTR was “highly influenced” by the Masons, but what you presented from your one and only source, it is rather lacking, and quite vague, even from where exactly you wanted me to read (which I have read the page you addressed) and continued on my own to read, I see no influence here or a pastor succumbing to influence, just a pastor trying to converse what the bible says to a group Freemasons who think they are on a path to God.

You highlighted the following: “In fact, some of my very dear friends are Masons, and I can appreciate that there are certain very precious truths that are held in part by our Masonic friends.”

The man is well known among other denominations that differ from his faith, for those he calls friends are not exclusive to the Bible Student Movement group only, for he had spoke of Presbyterian friends, Methodist friends, Baptist friends, Congregational friends, and Roman Catholic and Church of England friends, etc.

 So this guy knows people and has friends in various places, even among Masons, so I don’t see the influence as you claim from that sole source. Despite having friends of other denominations, he sticks to what he believes as true compared to the others.

This information is quite evident when you are familiar with the history of Christianity itself, let alone the Christian Restorationist Movements that boomed in the past.

Anyways, as for page 914 (into 915), it continues on to state the following:

Please don’t do what the dishonest “Cos” did, to where you take paragraphs from, mark the actual page number of which you pulled it from (example: “da da di   do da da”. - page 9999)

Anyways,

[Page 914] “As Christian people, Bible Students from all denominations, it would seem that we have something in our faith that is in sympathy and harmony with each denomination, the world over. Do our Presbyterian friends speak of the election? We more. Do our Methodist friends have the doctrine of free grace? We more. Do our Baptist friends understand the importance of baptism, to some extent? We more. Do our friends of the Christian denomination, and our Congregational friends, appreciate the great privileges of individuality in church government? We more."

And then continues with the Masons: "Do our Masonic friends understand something about the Temple, and being Knights Templars, and so on? We more."

After that CTR continues: "Do our Roman Catholic and Church of England friends believe in a Universal church? We more.  [Page 915] In other words, it would seem as though the message of God's Word has been more or less subdivided, and each denomination has taken hold of a piece of the truth, and around that bit of truth has gathered a good deal that we think is erroneous."

CTR shows confusion between the relationship of the Knights Templar to Masons. CTR appears to have thought of the Knights Templar as being a higher order of Mason, he also assumed that all Masons professed to be “Christian”, and thus he thought of the Masons similar to that of a “Christian denomination”. The truth he saw in his conversation with the Masons was basically that of the usage of temple as designating the “building of character”. CTR, however, often used the word "friends" very loosely, as can be seen even in his sermon.

For The Temple of God Sermon, it is critically evident to my response somewhere above as to whom he calls “friends”.

So, as for the highlighted and bold text you have on full display, there is no influence due to him having been influenced by friends that are Masons, let alone friends of other denominations, in addition to that, he assumed the Masons were Christians, only to later say what I have stated before, in addition to his confusion of the Masons not being Christians.

Lastly, pertaining to my last comment, he did state the following about the Masons. He is oblivious to how the Masons roll when it comes to “grips” of hands, but he had also held firm to what he thinks of the unchristian practices of Masons.

Your next highlight: “about the Great Pyramid, which is the very emblem they use, and what the Great Pyramid signifies”

That’s from page 916, not 914.

A lot of people knew this already, but this is not where he has taken his influence for calculating 1914 by means of Pyramidology.

The Great Pyramid in question is none other than the infamous, and yet mysterious, Great Pyramid of Giza (Also known as Pyramid of Khufu or the Pyramid of Cheops), located in Egypt.

We know CTR was involved with Pyramidology because in the early 1890s (1891), this type of study had boomed a global audience (a lot of people and groups). Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Bible Student Movement was among those who were intrigued by the Pyramid study, and he himself took it upon himself to study the pyramid, which resulted in him lining up the year 1914, which Jehovah’s Witnesses today hold that year of high importance and a reminder of them to them to maintain faith and be vigilant. Ironically, other than the Jehovah’s Witnesses, there were those who took into account CTR’s study and the 1914 date itself about a dozen of other groups, some of them do not exist anymore, I could be wrong.

For there was a time of relative peace and suddenly out of the blue, between the 1914-1919 periods, an assassination that shocked the world, violence, war, death and chaos due to World War I, the mass spread of a dangerous epidemic that claimed 50 million+ lives, globally, etc.

That being said, there were those before CTR who have studied the pyramid

Joseph A. Seiss, a Lutheran minister, who was an advocate for the study of Pyramidology. Joseph was known for his religious writings on Pyramidology, as well as Dispensationalism, a religious interpretive system for the Bible (Hermeneutics). One of his works in 1877, “The Great Pyramid of Egypt, Miracle in Stone: Secrets and Advanced Knowledge”, is considered a primary text of Pyramidology. As for influence regarding the “Great Pyramid”, it was he who had influenced Charles Taze Russell of this study when it rounded up a global audience, resulting in CTR going there to study and manage to get calculations that relate to scripture.

Russell believed that the Great Pyramid of Giza was built by the Hebrews under God’s direction, but to be understood those before them, well people of the modern day. CTR adopted and used Seiss's phrase, referring to it as "The Bible in Stone".

Another man by the name of John Taylor, not sure of his religious background, however this man was publisher and writer, who also took to the study of Pyramidology.

So in regards to “influence” of CTR regarding the Great Pyramid, it was Joseph A. Seiss, and information on this is as clear as the sky and the big blue sea.

Plus Christian Theologians seem to study Giza, not many today do it still, either it is too difficult, time consuming or the like, or just abandon it altogether. After CTR’s death, the practice had either ceased or was abandon in the early 1920s prior to the Bible Students soon becoming the Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, despite abandoning the study, as did many, Jehovah’s Witnesses seem like the few who take into account of those who actually did do Pyramidology, i.e. Charles Taze Russell’s work.

 

Your final highlight: “Our Masonic friends have it down very fine. I do not know where they got it so well. I have often wondered where they found out so many of the secrets of our High and Accepted Order of Masonry.”

This is from page 921, not 914.

Pretty much to what I stated before, but yeah, there is nothing in regards to influence where, as you claim.

 

I’ll ask you again: Where is it that CTR was “highly influenced/taken influence” by the hands of the Masons or any type of Masonry for that matter?

If you response by saying “he used Mason symbols” it will not go well for you in the with anything pertaining to that response because some people, myself included, have done that song and dance before. That being said, I know a lot about how Freemasons operate, because I spoke to former Masons who were formerly grandmasters and if you don’t really have much but vague information to support such claims, I am just going to assume that you don’t have sufficient sources, you only used one that didn’t say much or speak of things outside CTR’s sermons, you either consider one a mason without vital information, or you want to take on unsuspecting people who may not know or know very little about a Restoration Christian who led a Bible Student Movement that later became the very people who you may seem to be against out of spite.

 

Quote

You don’t seem to understand that Watchtower’s leaders are not only double-tongued but adept at creating smokescreens.  Although evidence appears to show no indication that he was registered as a Mason, he was still greatly influenced by Masonry.

Buddy, you'd be surprised of how much I know of Christianity's denominations, all kinds, very experienced and knowledgeable I am because the type of way I role is to learn of each one, see their way of understanding, even though I myself is a Unitarian who try to maintain hat was taught by Church Fathers of old, most importantly, I know scripture very well.

No one is on to what is true 100%, however, there are those who do what is needed to be at least close to truth than far from it, as the main streamers do, who are far from truth. For it is better to be closer to the light at the end of the tunnel than far form it.

Out of all denominations, the one that is more damaging is the practice of the Trinity part of the sole decline in Christianity in Europe and Asia, and slowly in America, which in itself, is somewhat of a practice to today's Masons, as well as their past counterparts.

Anyways, I would really like it if you answer the question in terms of influence within page 914 of the source you have, "Pastor Russell's Convention Discourses". Please me knowledgeable about it too because no one likes to waste time here when sent on a goose chase to find nothing.

[Witness]

I apologize for not referencing the pages of pdf I quoted from. Had I done so, I think JTR would have realized what I was quoting. 

Would Russell have been so naïve not to know where his use of the Masonic symbolism came from, even IF he acquired from another person or religion?  Was he so unaware that the drawings he used in the Photo-Drama of Creation were mimicked from the Masons' literature and the cover of their own bible? 

 And no, I cannot separate Russell from the Watchtower, since he is the foundation of the organization’s beginnings.  He is still mentioned in Wt. articles, and no matter what he taught at the time, his ‘work’ is projected with a positive light. 

Wt 09/5/1 pp. 22-25: “Those taking the lead in the preaching work back then knew that evangelizing by sermons printed in newspapers was an effective way to spread Bible truth. In fact, by the year 1908, Russell’s weekly Bible sermons appeared in 11 newspapers with a combined circulation of 402,000.”

It appears more important to know how widespread Russell’s teachings were than WHAT he taught.

He is not “just a pastor” from another religion; this man was known as “God’s mouthpiece”, as are all Watchtower leaders, who are genuine anointed ones.  He was a false prophet that buffaloed plenty of people, and the first in the line of more to come. Deut 18:20-22

I don’t doubt your knowledge, but I do doubt your understanding of how grave it is that Russell was influenced by paganism, through the use of symbols, pyramidology, and astrology.   Unless you were a JW, you can’t know this, or how JWs should be aware that “Jehovah’s organization” has its foundation on the sand.  Matt 7:24-27  They are convinced that God was behind these leaders bringing them where they are today – into a haven of supposed “peace and security”.  1 Thess 5:3

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Lastly, pertaining to my last comment, he did state the following about the Masons. He is oblivious to how the Masons roll when it comes to “grips” of hands, but he had also held firm to what he thinks of the unchristian practices of Masons.

You might check with one of the present GB members.  Rumor has it he’s well versed in using it.

Regarding page 914, he mentioned several denominations, to begin with, and then concentrated on comparing Mason theology with his brand of Christianity. 

I am well aware of Russell’s studies on the Pyramid, but thank you for your information..  How ironic that the Bible can apply to Russell’s love of “God’s Stone Witness”

“Woe to the rebellious children!
This is the Lord’s declaration.
They carry out a plan, but not mine;
they make an alliance,
but against my will,
piling sin on top of sin.
 Without asking my advice
they set out to go down to Egypt
in order to seek shelter under Pharaoh’s protection
and take refuge in Egypt’s shadow.
 But Pharaoh’s protection will become your shame,
and refuge in Egypt’s shadow your humiliation.”  Isa 3:1-3

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/davinci-freemason.php

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

By the Way JWinsider. Your friend “Barbara Anderson” also debunked that theory as a researcher and posted it on her site. Why haven’t you figured that one, out? Didn’t you say, you’re, also, a GOOD, RESEARCHER?

What happened to you AllenSmith? No, I did not ever say I was a good researcher. I said I was a researcher because that was my assignment. Also, I already debunked this same claim to my own satisfaction years ago, while I was still in Bethel. If you recall, I was the one on jw-archive who not only pointed to debunking material about this topic, but if you recall, I even found the original photo from which the photoshopped picture came from of Russell as a supposed Mason. (See another post by The Librarian on this subject.) 

I was the one who quoted the 1913 convention report as a primary source in debunking the theory, the same as you do above.  Also, in my post above I pointed to a very fair treatment of the subject that also claims the same primary thing you are claiming.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Anyone can see the argument put forward on unscrupulous sites like JWfacts. Russell, 33 degrees Freemason.

You are not telling the truth here. Again. What you are implying appears dishonest or appears to show a complete inability to do research -- or perhaps you can explain if there was some other reason you are reporting this idea incorrectly. The jwfacts.com site is actually another excellent site for debunking the idea that Russell was a Freemason.

An important statement from the page on the subject is here:

• Whilst these symbols are used by Freemasonry, Russell's usage is not evidence he was a member. These symbols are not exclusive to Freemasonry, and were in common usage amongst a number of nineteenth century Christian groups, such as the Adventist movement from which Russell drew many of his teachings.

The conclusion presented on the site includes this as one of the final statements:

• To believe Russell was a Freemason implies a conspiracy to hide his involvement that is both pointless and devoid of any evidence. Russell was neither a Mason, pagan or Satanist, but simply a religious leader stealing ideas from those around him to found his own religion.

What should have given it away is the very title of the page, which I assume you somehow misread:

• https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php

[JW Insider]

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Well, maybe I should have been clearer.

Yes, you should have been clearer. You should have been honest. And you should not have put yourself in a situation where you have to backpedal. By the way, this is about the closest thing I've ever seen to an apology from you. I'm impressed. I do think you kind of ruin it later, by claiming that I'm the one doing the backpedaling, however. I didn't have to backpedal at all because I still stand by exactly what I have always said about it, since 1977.

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

These opposing sites of FALSE narratives are the ones that started that nonsense and ended up looking foolish like they have been for about a quarter century now.

True. I don't know for how long the claim has been so common, but I agree that it's nonsense to think this Free Mason idea is true. He wasn't one, but so what if he had been? He had obviously found a new set of teachings to live by. Turns out it was likely through his mother's brother that he could easily learn about them, and I'm sure Russell was the kind who would have been curious to learn.

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

A good researcher doesn’t go directly to the source of the criticism, but to the actual source where the “truth lies beneath”.

You're right, that's always the first and most important place to start. Personally I learned that the Mason claim wasn't true because the Convention Reports were included in the material I read from 1977 through 1982 which finally included just about everything Russell, Bible Students and the WTS published from 1876 to the present. The actual source is the real foundation of truth, but I didn't know at the time that this particular question or claim had ever come up. So for me it was already pre-debunked by Russell's own words. But, on the other hand, a good researcher, I would think, could also take note of what persons admit  about someone when they would otherwise love to find fault with that person.

The same goes for either side of an argument. If you were an Israelite in David's day and heard that David had a man murdered so he could steal his wife you might be inclined to defend David against an "apostate" lie. But if your own prophets and holy books admitted it, then there was a good chance it was true. If only your enemies admitted it, you would need more evidence. If, in the days of Jesus, his enemies claimed many false things about him, but also claimed that they couldn't understand why such a "false prophet" was able to perform wonderful miracles, then this provides some evidence about Jesus' miracles to others critics who might not accept a Christians word for it.

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

So, when you start suggesting thereÂ’s an article out there to show all Christians are masons and then try, backpedaling your statement as youÂ’re accustomed, of doing? Who are you trying to fool? You're not even trying anymore to keep the context, honest!!

No need for backpedaling. That's why I have never needed to backpedal. I still stand by exactly what I said. But you implied that the jwfacts.com site said the opposite of what it really says, and now you have backpedaled regarding that claim. This is at least a measure of progress. Normally you merely claim that you were right all along, and that it was the person who was right who was really wrong. So for your own case, I applaud that you at least had the decency to backpedal.

[JW Insider]

52 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

When you make a BOLD statement like JWfacts is a good source for debunking?

Goodness. You think you can backpedal full circle and get right back where you started? That's almost always a sign of dishonesty. I said that you implied jwfacts was lying about Russell and Free Masons. So I pointed out that you were wrong and that jwfacts. In fact, I said:

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The jwfacts.com site is actually another excellent site for debunking the idea that Russell was a Freemason.

So, this is still absolutely true. jwfacts.com is an excellent site for debunking this particular idea. You see how that might be different from saying that jwfacts.com is simply a good source for debunking? You left off the only important part no doubt to imply that I thought the sight was good for debunking anything. It seems that you must have understood this, otherwise you wouldn't have said it. Then you prove that you understood that this logical fallacy needed just one more little piece to be fully dishonest. You made the fallacy explicit when you said:

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Then you would have to admit JWfacts is anything but a good source for anything.

Would you? Is that really how you think? That if something is good for one thing, then it's not good for anything?

• (Philippians 4:5) . . .Let your reasonableness become known to all men.. . .

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

So, one right doesn’t make up for 1000 wrong, just because they got caught.

That's correct as a general statement, although I have no idea if the person(s) responsible for the jwfacts.com site ever had this wrong. It seems to me that the site treats a lot of areas of controversy, and that this is not the only controversy over which the correct and reasonable approach is taken to a particular criticism. I think you are probably wrong in your claim that "they got caught." I also suspect that Barbara Anderson would have learned this at Bethel while she worked on the "Proclaimers" book, unless she says otherwise somewhere.

It's also possible that the first ones to claim that Russell was a Mason were not outsiders, but Witnesses skimming through old books and looking at the pyramids and symbols. When I was about 8, I remember looking at the pictures of pyramids in the old books in our KH Library and wondering why Russell marked various stone levels of the pyramid along an angle like 20th, 30th, 36th, 40th, and 60th -- with the word MASONRY next to the 50th. Later, of course, I heard people out in service mention that so-and-so at this or that door was a 40th degree Mason or a 50th degree Mason related to the "90 Degrees of Egyptian Freemasonry." http://exposemasonic.blogspot.com/2011/08/freemasonry-above-33-degree-to-90.html That made sense, but it didn't bother me any more than the pictures of the Pyramids themselves bothered me (which they did at the time, less so now).

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Witness is attempting to *criticize*, symbolism of the Bible Students, that have NOTHING to do with JW’s, after having a better understanding about those thing such as the pyramid that Rutherford stopped endorsing, since there was no longer a need to meticulously, prove 2520, which was the bases for the pyramid,

1. You say that the symbolism of the Bible Students included the pyramid [Great Pyramid of Giza].
2. You say that this symbolism has nothing to do with JWs
3. You say that meticulously proving 2,520 was the basis for the pyramid

I daresay that meticulously proving 2,520 does have something to do with the JWs. However, you are completely wrong about proving "2,520" as the basis for the pyramid anyway.

The pyramid calculations had nothing to do with 2,520 or 607 (606) or 7 times, or even the Times of the Gentiles. Yes, it was utilized to focus attention on 1915 and 1914, and 1874 but it never had anything to do with 2520.