RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

In March of this year (2018), the Watchtower Corporation settled cases with former members Jose Lopez and Osbaldo Padron, for alleged mishandling of sexual abuse committed against the men when they were children in the religion. During the course of these cases, the courts had ordered Watchtower to produce records of other alleged child molesters in the religion. Watchtower refused, and was then slapped with a $4000 per day sanction from the courts. As I brought out in this post, Watchtower lost their final appeal against these sanctions last November, and you can read the court’s rather scathing decision against them in that column.

This settlement with Lopez and Padron closes down both this order for Watchtower to produce documents, and the $4000 per day sanction. The terms of the settlement reached with the men are confidential, so there is no information available about dollar amounts, etc.

As you can see WT made settlement with this two men. This is reason why $ fine is stopped.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

please read carefully what @JOHN BUTLER  posted on November 18th 2018: and ask yourselves,: should John report this to the police and/or social services? Or is it just me, @Outta Here and @JW Insider and (maybe others like @Arauna @TrueTomHarley)who think John should report it? 

I have been given this information :-

If John feels  he have to go and report case to secular authorities, I will support his decision.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

If you have run a global organization then I will talk with you again.  Every country has its own laws and in most countries where there are laws against child sex abuse there is no follow up.   America and Australia are two countries who still follow up but this is becoming harder as Laws in the countries are being eroded.

South Africa has the best laws in the world but there is no longer law and order.   Murders, corruption, killings, robbery are not even followed up - only in high profile cases.  Children are abused daily in the schools by their own teachers to get marks to pass. They have the highest rape statistic in the world (of countries who report this).

It is easy to criticize a world wide organization who use lawyers.  But each country has different laws and the lawyers will apply the laws of the country.  If the rape can be proved and the level of violence established then a person will be put out of the congregation even if the laws of the country are weak. 

BUT this is one of the hardest crimes to prove.... because it is always hidden.

As you has seen from short video, Richard Asch, WT REPRESENTATIVE has said clearly how elders duty is only to provide spiritual safety aka  guidance, support, monitoring, keep congregation clear and similar.

Because such WT position, JW congregations not need any secular lawyers in their midst, in their Spiritual Worldwide Paradise. Why don't need? Because all problems can be settled between brothers or in worst scenario,  by ELDERS.

WT need Lawyers primarily because of BUSINESS!!!!!   

[JOHN BUTLER]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

You have absolutely no idea how this works in the real world do you? Having 20 years worth of child abuse accusations is of absolutely no use to the authorities unless the survivor/victim makes a report to them first. When a report is made to the authorities  by survivor/victim it is taken to court and the courts ask for any reports made, then the reports are handed over.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here then. 

If the authorities cannot act on accusations without the victim making a report first, then why are you trying to tell me to go the the Police? I don't even know who the victim is. So if I made an accusation against the young man or gave a report of such, it would be of no use it seems because you say that the authorities could not act on it anyway. Where is you logic in all ths ?  

However my point is, that if all information was handed over to such authorities, they could sift through all the information and probably find a quantity of accusations against some of the individuals accused. If for instance they found 5 accusations against one person, over a period of three years. that would be grounds enough to bring that person in for questioning. Then also they could contact  the victims that would also be named in those reports and ask if they wished to give evidence and / or take court action against the accused. 

All action and information of that type, if the names of victims and accused were known to the authorities, could make the world a slightly 'safer' place to live in. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

This is a quote from the original poster who subsequently asks for the opinion of others.. The opinion of others can only be Yes, No, or Maybe. As this is a UK issue, there is a moral, not legal duty, for an informed third party to report such matters to a suitable authority. In view of the intimate knowledge this alleger claims to have,  the option was suggested that they discuss the matter anonymously with Childline on a Freephone number 0800 1111.

What is particularly odious about the whole exchange is that the party in question is vociferously complaining and making allegations about others who, in their opinion, "cover up" such cases.

Consider:

• An allegation has been made.The accuser has given their opinion as above.
• Others have expressed their varied opinions. 
• An option that would report the matter to an suitable authority, anonymously, has been given.
• Yet the alleger continues to dither, continues to accuse others of the same moral hypocrisy. 
• The alleged potential for further harm remains.

This person, regardless of status, is appearing to behave like an active part of the problem they are continually complaining about. Why is there even a discussion on the matter?

I really love it all. Those of you who are joining in @Anna by turning attention away from this TOPIC. 

Very clever you think ? But this topic is about the RECLAIMED VOICES letter........ And  Oh how often I get accused of going off topic. 

This topic is just one tiny piece of evidence that the JW Org hides pedophiles in it.  But it seems most of you do not care. Your own lives are not affected so you don't care. So you choose to take aim at me, so be it, my shoulders are wide enough to handle it all. 

I am not stupid and i do realise your purposes for trying to get me to put myself in the line of trouble. Remember that I LEFT the JW Org, I wasn't disfellowshipped. I was one jump ahead of them.  And i know they would just love to have a reason to call me an Apostate, to accuse me of slander, and to use me as a bad example of one who left the Org. It isn't going to happen, sorry to disappoint you all.  

[JOHN BUTLER]

•  

@Jay Iza @Srecko Sostar please read carefully what @JOHN BUTLER  posted on November 18th 2018: and ask yourselves,: should John report this to the police and/or social services? Or is it just me, @Outta Here and @JW Insider and (maybe others like @Arauna @TrueTomHarley)who think John should report it? 

 

@Anna  failed to mention that some others told me quite bluntly to mind my own business, and that all I had was 'gossip' and 'rumours'.  And that i would be doing more harm than good and possibly ruining the lives of people involved. 

 

Come on Anna be fair, there were people on both sides of this issue. I don't mind you putting me down in this way but you could at least be honest about it all.    

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

there were people on both sides of this issue

It's not about the issue around who is on what side or the other.

It's primarily about the safety of children and the failure of adults, whoever they are, to discharge their responsibility to ensure that safety. And it's also about the moral responsibility of those both inside and outside of organisations who cover up detailed allegations out of cowardice and misplaced loyalties.

These responsibilities are not removed by the opinions of others.

[Anna]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

yet, he may look repentant and yet go and do it again.... but time will tell.

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

The congregation will never be informed of  a case.

In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

It's not about the issue around who is on what side or the other.

It's primarily about the safety of children and the failure of adults, whoever they are, failing in their responsibility to ensure that safety. And it's also about the moral responsibility of those both inside and outside of organisations who cover up detailed allegations out of cowardice and misplaced loyalties.

These responsibilities are not removed by the opinions of others.

So you are condemning the ELDERS of JW org then ? Thanks I agree with you. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

53 minutes ago, Anna said:

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).

In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

 

elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. 

That is not the same as informing the whole congregation. If Elders only inform the parents that have children. 

And this does not help parents outside the congregation to protect their children. 

" If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse ..."  If it is thus determined then I hope the Elders report it to the police so that the outside community can be protected too. 

[Evacuated]

37 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So you are condemning the ELDERS of JW org then ? Thanks I agree with you.

Actually, I condemn the action (or inaction) of every single last one of you who hide the facts of child abuse from the relevant authorities. I don't differentiate on the basis of any perceived status in or out of any organisation. You are all in the same bag to me.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).

In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

 

Agree with you on first paragraph.

About that  congregation will be informed, and how will be informed, from par. 11 i am not so glad about policy.

Trouble part in quote about it is this;  elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

They said here about informing, NOT all CONGREGATION in public announcement , NOT all CONGREGATIONS IN WHOLE COUNTRY, ....BUT ONLY PARENTS OF MINORS in particular congregation!! 

Is this enough? Policy makers decide how it is. WT Lawyers obviously gave advice about this way of dealing with issue. Maybe must be that way. Don't know. But looks problematic to me. I am aware how no one have "perfect" solution on this. But it seems to me, how WT experts not gave enough efforts for PROTECTING children and their families.  

About issue how elders will monitoring Individual persona aka molesters is funny idea.