Prophecy & Signs, Truth & Conspiracy, Covid-19, the UN, Disgusting Thing, Truth and Conspiracies

[JW Insider]

34 minutes ago, Anna said:

Does anybody think that way?  We know not everything the UN does is evil. Not everything the Governments do is evil either, as Paul brings out; "Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it;  for it is God’s minister to you for your good". Wanting to do things "green" is a good thing...

I think you are mostly right. And I was only trying to show how unreasonable the results could be if this was taken seriously. However, I doubt that Arauna is alone in a similar line of thinking that there must be something diabolical even in quotes like the following that she found in the UN documents:

Quote

In+ these+ Goals+ and+ targets,+ we+ are+ setting+ out+ a+ supremely+ ambitious+ and+ transformational+ vision.+ We+ envisage+ a+ world+ free+ of+ poverty,+ hunger,+ disease+ and+ want,+ where+all+life+can+thrive.+"

To this exact quote, you may have notice that she responded to it by saying:

"SOUNDS LIKE THEY WANT TO BRING PEACE AND SECURITY !  SATANS VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S GOVERNMENT. See below where they talk of peace and security linked with sustainable development."

So, this type of thinking might not be as absent from among us as you indicated.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider But I also talked personally with one of the lawyers involved and it was my assessment that the spirit of Jesus' words here were not taken to heart:

That scripture at Matthew 5 v 40 - 46, is lovely. But i think the GB / Lawyers / helpers et al, do not consider it often enough in many circumstances. 

[Anna]

On 10/3/2020 at 12:26 PM, JW Insider said:

I think you are mostly right. And I was only trying to show how unreasonable the results could be if this was taken seriously. However, I doubt that Arauna is alone in a similar line of thinking that there must be something diabolical even in quotes like the following that she found in the UN documents:

In+ these+ Goals+ and+ targets,+ we+ are+ setting+ out+ a+ supremely+ ambitious+ and+ transformational+ vision.+ We+ envisage+ a+ world+ free+ of+ poverty,+ hunger,+ disease+ and+ want,+ where+all+life+can+thrive.+"

 

On 10/3/2020 at 12:26 PM, JW Insider said:

To this exact quote, you may have notice that she responded to it by saying:

"SOUNDS LIKE THEY WANT TO BRING PEACE AND SECURITY !  SATANS VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S GOVERNMENT. See below where they talk of peace and security linked with sustainable development."

So, this type of thinking might not be as absent from among us as you indicated.

Our own magazine, the 1995 WT had some good things to say about the UN. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1995720

“For 50 years the United Nations organization has made notable efforts to bring about world peace and security. Arguably, it may have prevented a third world war, and the wholesale destruction of human life through the use of nuclear bombs has not been repeated. The United Nations has provided millions of children with food and medicine. It has contributed to improved health standards in many countries, providing, among other things, safer drinking water and immunization against dangerous diseases. Millions of refugees have received humanitarian assistance”.

The magazine also states the JW position regarding the UN: “Jehovah’s Witnesses view the United Nations organization as they do other governmental bodies of the world. They acknowledge that the United Nations continues to exist by God’s permission. In harmony with the Bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses render due respect to all governments and obey them as long as such obedience does not require that they sin against God.”

Of course, and this is a given for JWs, like all other governments, the UN will not exist one day. The same magazine goes on to say: “Then Jesus Christ, the “King of kings and Lord of lords,” and his army of heavenly warriors will dissolve all human governments and put to death all who reject God’s sovereignty".

I think what @Arauna maybe had in mind is that without Jehovah, this is an impossible task and that those who try to achieve it lack humility and reliance on God, and it is Satan who is trying to promote that kind of thinking.....the independence from God. After all, this was his original reasoning with Eve.

However, and looking at it realistically, I doubt any of those people who try to implement these good things are even aware that they should look to God for guidance and look to his Kingdom to bring the solution. So I think we should be fair and admit that there are many people who are unwittingly supporting Satan's methods, rather than knowingly trying to devise some evil, diabolical plan. Satan is the master of deception, and he knows that this method works better than outright bidding someone to do evilness. After all, most people have some good in them, and have a conscience, because they were created that way. There must have been a reason why Jesus was fond of mankind, and why he was willing to give his life for them (Proverbs 8:31). Same for Jehovah, who doesn’t desire anyone to be destroyed.

The UN is only evil and disgusting in the sense that it is haughty enough to think that they may achieve all these good things by themselves, without God, thinking they can give themselves credit for something that is clearly not in their capacity to achieve.... imo....

[TrueTomHarley]

One does get the sense that things are coming together quickly. Let me throw just one more bit of speculation into the pot, so that, in case it happens, I will be able to bill myself as a true prophet.

The entire network evening news yesterday consisted of Trump leaving the hospital, flying to the White House via helicopter, and then, just when the news would be signing off—there is was standing framed by the White House door, saluting, and (gasp) removing his mask with defiance. All the whlle the media, who hate him, and who hate the idea of being upstaged by him, must cover him thoroughly and are reduced to saying banal things about projecting strength and such.

”Look, the Man!” I just know that somewhere the evangelical types are going to be saying. I haven’t seen it yet, but it probably is occurring.

And if he dies? I’ll bet you anything he has that base covered to, with a statement, maybe even prerecorded, of going into the great beyond triumphantly and without fear. “Look, we’re mortal,” he will say. Death happens at present. However, I have conquered death. The latter five words will not be his, but if the churchy folks say “Look, the Man!” while he is alive, what will they say when he is dead?

This works on so many levels to satisfy “his base.” His enemies in the press are almost always atheist, or at least heavily skeptic. For them, this life IS all there is, and suddenly they are very interested in stories about 70+ year-olds who initially felt find, but then dropped dead. But his base—whoa—who knows what sort of blasphemous comparisons they might make, elevating a national leader to someone else who gave his life so that others could live without fear.

AlanF, that troll, carried on and on about the “Devil’s deal” between the churches and the President, ignoring, as trolls always do, that it is universal in politics and that his side does the same. I think of John F Kennedy, who faced huge odds gaining the Presidency because he was Catholic. “I don’t know why they make such a fuss over my being Catholic, he said to aides. It’s not as though I’m a very good one.”

[JW Insider]

On 10/4/2020 at 6:26 PM, Anna said:

The UN is only evil and disgusting in the sense that it is haughty enough to think that they may achieve all these good things by themselves, without God, thinking they can give themselves credit for something that is clearly not in their capacity to achieve.

Yes. I think that you have hit upon the reason that the quote about peace and security was considered "Satanic." It was haughty in the sense of being far too optimistic and ambitious. Perhaps the words "supremely" and "vision" also give it a religious sense.

"In+ these+ Goals+ and+ targets,+ we+ are+ setting+ out+ a+ supremely+ ambitious+ and+ transformational+ vision.+ We+ envisage+ a+ world+ free+ of+ poverty,+ hunger,+ disease+ and+ want,+ where+all+life+can+thrive.+"

Of course, we know from the context that we are likely trying to read into it things that just aren't there, if we try to make too much of the supremely flowery rhetoric.

But, do we really know what is the demarcation line for calling an organization evil and disgusting? Is it the grand scope of the optimism? The scope of the effort? Is this because they envisage the whole world to be better, not just limiting their efforts to a small country here and there? 

We don't call a school teacher evil and disgusting if he or she spearheads a project for a cleanup of a park, or a tree planting effort. But what if all teachers in several different countries support the idea of an "Earth Day" where several hours of that day every year are used for the promotion of such projects? What if the teachers optimistically claim that such efforts will save the world from a climate crisis? What if it turns out that the funding and promotional materials for these "Earth Day" efforts come from policies and think tanks at a government level, and these governments are haughty enough to think they can achieve these good things without God?

(I noticed that even evangelists like Billy Graham and others have felt a need to counsel their audience that Earth Day is not evil. Here's another:

So should Christians care about Earth Day? Yes.The contemporary environmentalist movement has often been flawed and clumsy and sometimes evil, as any movement made up of fallen sinners tends to be. But, at the core of it, is a concept Christians ought to recognize.

But there is always a conspiratorialist somewhere who will be happy to find evil in anything. Here's an example:

Don Stewart’s letter (News Messenger, April 22, page A5, “Celebrate Earth and not Lenin”) argued that Earth Day is connected to Lenin’s birthday as both fall on April 22. Celebrating Earth Day shows you are a red Communist and plotting much evil in the world of capitalism.

Snopes.com even had to produce an article against that idea, since Lenin had supposedly murdered and "composted" his girlfriend. Other pro-capitalists found other political reasons for calling Earth Day "evil." https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2000/04/earth-day-evil/

The UN policymakers and think tanks look at the world as a bunch of projects. When they look at poverty, they see how some government policies have succeeded in a short amount of time in bringing very poor countries on their way out of poverty, from say 80% below a UN-defined poverty line only 8% still in poverty.  Or other countries bring the meaningful amount of free health care from 50% of their population up to 100%. Or free education of children that was available for 20% of a population is now available to 100%. So the UN recommends some of those same ideas to other member countries in such a way that doesn't bring any specific God or gods into the equation.

But for us, if the UN wants to promote projects they see as good, they will always be seen by some of us as "evil and disgusting." Even if member countries think this is a good thing in the eyes of their God, bringing God into the equation is a sure way of bringing prejudice and sabotage to these projects.

And what if they did bring God into the equation? Wouldn't that just make them more evil and disgusting in the sight of most of us? The United States Supreme Court and other government agencies put up a sign that says "In God We Trust." Does that make them any more or less Satanic in our eyes?

I know we don't tie the term Satanic to all political organizations and entities as we have done in the past, but especially when it comes to the UN, we are apt to use words like evil and disgusting. We can do this, while at the same time praising their efforts.

Rutherford looked at the British armies occupying Palestine in the early decades of the last century and saw them as the "disgusting thing;" "the abomination of desolation." At the same time the Watchtower temporarily praised the League of Nations, using words saying, in effect, that it was the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth.

I see the United Nations as just another governmental organization about which we need to stay neutral. We can watch it as we would any government on earth. We can see its failures and see its successes. And we can see how people put too much faith in it, and their own governments. But if we start calling it specifically evil and disgusting then we are not neutral. We are not idolizing the UN if we point out its successes, just as we are not demonizing it when we point out its failures. 

[Srecko Sostar]

A Kingdom Hall is a building dedicated to Jehovah. Therefore, it cannot rightly be said to belong to any individual or congregation, whatever its legal title may indicate. Christian principles dictate that we cooperate fully to make sure that this building measures up to the purpose for which it was built. All in the congregation can contribute to that end by showing appropriate respect for our places of worship, by making donations for new construction, and by volunteering their time and energy to keep existing Kingdom Halls properly cleaned and maintained. By supporting these efforts, we show our zeal for Jehovah’s place of pure worship, as Jesus did.—John 2:17. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20150715/respect-kingdom-hall-clean-maintained/

WTJWorg is convinced that the construction of KH is God’s will and that the construction  was accomplished “with God”. Does it make sense, is it useful to contradict someone’s beliefs or misconceptions? If JW people truly believe that JHVH support all and every KH construction and all and every sell off of particular KH and Branch office around the world, let it be.

If people who don't believe in God's existence truly believe that they can promote and accomplish "good life" for humankind with own efforts, or "without god" as believers would say, it would only mean that there are two kinds of belief, two different concepts of faith.

Based on experience to date, we rightly conclude that both concepts have flaws and have often proven to be unreliable and even more so, that they can be extremely harmful. 

Religious leaders, in our example - GB, have constantly invoked God and do so today. They claim that everything achieved in the “organization”, all promoted projects (literal and spiritual)  are reflection of God’s will and great faith in it, in Him  from all members of the JW.

Whether we are talking about spiritual or physical projects, and whether they are pious or non-pious organizations, there can be only one measure for all.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider The United States Supreme Court and other government agencies put up a sign that says "In God We Trust." Does that make them any more or less Satanic in our eyes?

Doesn't God's word say that these government departments stand in place because God wants them to remain there for now ? Doesn't God say these things are for a protection at this time ? So who are we to call them Satanic ? Isn't the Supreme Court part of the Superior Authorities which should be obeyed ?