Musing on prayer

[Srecko Sostar]

In continue John chapter 14, verse 15 say:  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

We have; ME and MY.

Love ME.

Keep MY commandments.

When answering the question of the greatest commandment, he began with: Love God (JHVH nwt) and ended with Love Neighbor.

Who was Jesus on Earth, to disciple? Neighbor? I don't think so. But for sure he was; God, Son of God, Lord, Master, King etc?

In this verse he not directed people to LOVE JHVH. In this verse he not directed people to KEEP commandments of JHVH. He directed people to himself. Interesting.

[Witness]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In this verse he not directed people to LOVE JHVH. In this verse he not directed people to KEEP commandments of JHVH. He directed people to himself. Interesting.

God’s Word is Truth.  It provides the Way to life.

As the Logos, the messenger of God’s Word, Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except through him.  John 14:6  We've heard this many times.

And yet, there is more.

“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ¹⁶ For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.”  Col 1:15,16 

If we happened to know a person who was a walking “encyclopedia”, who knew the answers to all of our questions, we would frequently seek him out.   This would fit the case of Solomon.

1 Kings 4:29-34 -

God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. ³⁰ Solomon’s wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the people of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. ³¹ He was wiser than anyone else, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Kalkol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. ³² He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. ³³ He spoke about plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also spoke about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. ³⁴ From all nations people came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

One mortal man was given such wisdom.  The depth of who Jesus is, and his wisdom seems impossible for us to fathom, but he wants us to learn this wisdom, directly from him.  And then we have the Wt, who created a gap between reaching out to him and his wisdom, with the decision that less emphasis was to be given to Jesus, and more emphasis on “Jehovah”.   This gap has grown over the years.  Another gap was created between the anointed and their relationship with Jesus, which is daunting for them to face.  They allow the power of physical men to rule over that relationship, which really isn’t a relationship at all.  Reaching out to their Savior personally, reaching out to the members of his body, comes with a cost of losing the life they know as JWs. (Matt 10:39)  It can only be a setup by the evil one.  No one should regulate how we worship the Father and the Son.     

Preventing ourselves from praying, speaking to Jesus, limits also our relationship with the Father. (Rom 8:38,39)

If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.  John 14:7

John 21:25  -  “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Pearl commented on this once:

“When I read that verse, I reflect upon the reality that Jesus was the Tree of Life in Eden.  He was the wellspring that reflected the mind of God.  He said, “All that the Father has, is mine”.  I’m sure that alluded to Jesus having a limitless resource of truth.  His depiction of having hair, white as snow, reflects his wisdom.  Imagine the required intelligence needed, to create everything in the physical realm…various biospheres, internal organs, the propagation and reproduction of living things, our consciousness, the microbiology of the soil.  It’s endless.  Jesus is the source of wisdom for mankind.  We ourselves cannot grasp the Father.  But Jesus comes from the Father’s bosom.  Isa 40:13 asks, Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”  But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor 2:16)  It is the words of Jesus that can instruct the human mind in divine truth.  I think that John was commenting on his experience with Jesus…that every word from him, reflected his great wisdom.  Johns saw that the wisdom of Jesus, was boundless.  Any attempt to record all that Jesus knew, “the world could not contain the books that would written”.

 

 

 

[Anna]

19 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you see this?  Do you really believe that God is going to tell us to give "obeisance" to Jesus Christ when Jesus is brought back into the world?  Or, does God expect us to give him worship?  Heb 1:5-6

No, I don't see this, at all.

Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

The Bible is explicitly clear that worship belongs only to God.

It is a case of what does "worship", as opposed to "obeisance" or "bowing down" or "honoring" mean?

I understand this to mean that you can bow down, kneel or curtsy to anyone entitled to such a sign of respect and honor. But you would not worship them.

Unfortunately the Greek word proskuneo has been translated in various ways in different Bibles depending on what the translator "deemed appropriate" 

For example in the same Bible (New American Standard Bible): 

Matthew 2:2: "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 8:2 And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, "Lord , if You are willing, You can make me clean.

Matthew 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!

Matthew 15:25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord , help me!"

Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him

Matthew 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. etc.

The Darby translation:

Matthew 2:2 Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage.

Matthew 14:33 But those in the ship came and did homage to him, saying, Truly thou art God's Son etc...

 

Mark 15:19:

American Standard Version: And they smote his head with a reed, and spat upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him

Good News Translation: They beat him over the head with a stick, spat on him, fell on their knees, and bowed down to him.

King James Version: And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.

Duay Rheims Catholic: And they struck his head with a reed: and they did spit on him. And bowing their knees, they adored him

ETC.

Strong's Number: 4352 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin proskuneo from (4314) and a probable derivative of (2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Proskuneo 6:758,948 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech pros-koo-neh'-o Verb Definition to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank to the Jewish high priests to God to Christ to heavenly beings to demons   NAS Word Usage - Total: 60 bow down 1, bow down before 1, bowed down 1, bowed down before 2, bowing before 1, bowing down 1, prostrated himself before 1, worship 32, worshiped 17, worshipers 1, worshiping 1, worships 1

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

The Bible is explicitly clear that worship belongs only to God.

Who was involved in the conversation?  Everyone?

Who does Jesus worship?  He worships the Father.

Does Satan worship God?  No. Satan wanted Jesus to worship him.  

What did Jesus remind Satan about worship?  

No one else but the two of them, was in the conversation.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I understand this to mean that you can bow down, kneel or curtsy to anyone entitled to such a sign of respect and honor. But you would not worship them.

Unfortunately the Greek word proskuneo has been translated in various ways in different Bibles depending on what the translator "deemed appropriate"

bow down, do homage, adore, worship, fall on knees - to anyone entitled

Pope is entitled, King and President are entitled, Caesar is entitled ...etc. King can present not only secular but spiritual (religious) authority. Elizabeth II is a monarch who heads the Church of England. Would a JW member bow (in any of possible form) to this Queen? She is entitled, because of Romans 13! Pope is entitled because of same verses.

To what extent of understanding, about what is “worship” and what is not, will someone go?

JW members are forbidden, by GB decree, to paint walls in some non-JW church. Is that sort of worship? Is that supporting "false religion"? Being part of UN and OSCE and sitting with religious leaders of various churches, done by GB, is it not showing "support" for secular and religious things -  and sort of bow down, do homage, adore, worship, fall on knees .... if we stretch the terms a little to degree of famous painting church walls?

Problem of understanding exist, of course, but WTJWorg contributing to that confuse too.

 

 

[Anna]

I never thought I would use a Catholic site to explain the difference between bowing down and worshiping but here is:

Question:

Catholics say that they don’t worship Mary, but isn’t it the case that their actions suggest otherwise, such as when they bow before a statue of Mary?

Answer:

The question assumes that bowing before something or someone necessarily involves worship. But this is not true.

For example, Solomon didn’t offer worship to his mother when he bowed before her in 1 Kings 2:19. It was simply a gesture of honor, since Bathsheba was the queen mother. Isaac wasn’t prophesying that the nations would worship his son Jacob when he said, “Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you” (Gen. 27:29). He was merely indicating that the nations would honor Jacob and his descendants.

Moreover, the act of bowing can’t be idolatrous in and of itself, because God commands that it be directed to finite beings. For example, in Revelation 3:9 Jesus says that he will make “those of the synagogue of Satan” “bow down” before the feet of the Christians in Philadelphia. If bowing before another were an act of worship, then Jesus would be commanding idolatry. But that’s absurd.

It’s possible that someone who bows before a statue of Mary might offer the statue, or Mary herself, worship. But the idolatry would not be due to the act of bowing. It would be due to the intentional offering of worship; like in the case of Cornelius who bowed before Peter and worshipped him (Acts 10:25-26). If a Catholic were to do such a thing, they would need to repent and begin offering worship to the one who alone has a right to our worship—namely, God.

Edit: I forgot to include the source: https://www.catholic.com/qa/bowing-isnt-worshipping

 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

I never thought I would use a Catholic site to explain the difference between bowing down and worshiping but here is:

It only means one thing: You have overcome prejudice.

I adore you.

adore = to love and respect someone very much, or to like something very much - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/adore

[Witness]

20 hours ago, Anna said:

It would be due to the intentional offering of worship; like in the case of Cornelius who bowed before Peter and worshipped him (Acts 10:25-26). If a Catholic were to do such a thing, they would need to repent and begin offering worship to the one who alone has a right to our worship—namely, God.

So, you are applying this to praying to,  and worshipping Jesus Christ?

Rev 5:6-14

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

Both the Father and the Son are “worshiped” in this passage. But I suppose in your mind you may be thinking that the falling down was only toward the Lamb, and the worship was given only to the Father. 

 

 

[Matthew9969]

I believe you can discuss th8ngs with Jesus, but from the jw perspective, why not address Jesus as Michael when your praying?