Resurrection during the thousand year reign?

[HollyW]

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Yes, it mentioned the points we made in our own words. Thanks for researching it. Hope you gained something from it as well.  It is good to do research, as it helps us to learn more and know the mind of Jehovah. Jesus said knowledge leads to everlasting life. John 17:3.

Thanks, Melinda, I'll take that as your agreement that I did not misrepresent JW beliefs, as Eoin mistaken said.

And John 17:3 says, not that knowledge leads to everlasting life, but that KNOWING the Father AND the Son means eternal life. Knowing both the Father and the Son intimately, in our hearts, our minds, our souls, our very beings because they dwell in us by the Holy Spirit. (John 14:23)

 

[Evacuated]

On 6/30/2016 at 21:32, Melinda Mills said:

Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again

This statement quoting @HollyW misrepresents our belief in itself. No further evidence is required for that.

2 points worth pondering are:

1. Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden to stop them from eating from the tree of life. There is no mention of them eating from this tree prior to sinning or that they even knew of it's existence. So, whilst perfect and not subject to sin and it's consequence death, they still had not been granted everlasting life by Jehovah by being permitted to eat from that tree.

So it is quite in harmony with this to conceive that humans resurrected in post Armageddon society along with the Armageddon survivors would eventually be restored to perfection PRIOR to being granted everlasting life. The final destruction of Satan and any who side with him described at Rev. 20:7-15 will enable Jehovah to make His final judgement as to who of the human family now restored to perfection will be granted everlasting life.

Adam lost the opportunity for guaranteed life everlasting by rebelling whilst perfect prior to receiving that guarantee. Obedient, perfected and sin-cleansed, mankind on earth will receive that guarantee, once having demonstrated their unbreakable loyalty to Jehovah as the rightful Sovereign Lord of the Universe and all that this entails. Jehovah will have full confidence to those humans declaring them righteous for life. He certainly will not be granting everlasting life to any that He feels will sin again!

2. Immortality (and it's closely associated terms, incorruptible and indestructible) has to do with the quality of life enjoyed by Jehovah himself and certain others of His creation, namely Jesus and his 144000 associate king-priests. Their life also has the quality of being everlasting. The life enjoyed by other spirit creatures whilst potentially everlasting, is not immortal (otherwise how could Satan and his spirit supporters be destroyed?)

Human life by its very nature can never be immortal (as discussed in detail previously, see 1Cor.15:50). But it can be everlasting. And will have to be in order to fulfil the promise of Ps.37:29. And the right to that everlasting life (never enjoyed by the sinner Adam) will be enjoyed by the obedient, perfect human family once the thousand years of Christ's rule has ended. Rev.20:5.

[Melinda Mills]

Hi Holly, I endorse the statements of Eion above.  I don't have time now to go into detail. I am dressing now to attend the convention.

 

Eion, the following statement is Holly's and not mine. "Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again ".

What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.  Thanks for answering.

 

Kind regards and Agape

 

 

Melinda

 

[Shiwiii]

8 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.  

Melinda, these things we research are from your organization, and not from outside sources. You are correct in this, however we bring these things up so that you and others can research them too. If there is another understanding, other than what we observe, by all means provide the information or link to clarify. You see, we are taking what the wt says and comparing it to scripture if it fits great but if not our question is why? 

I took the liberty to include Holly in my comment, and if I misrepresent her I expect her to correct me.

[HollyW]

On 7/2/2016 at 2:40 AM, Melinda Mills said:

Hi Holly, I endorse the statements of Eion above.  I don't have time now to go into detail. I am dressing now to attend the convention.

 

Eion, the following statement is Holly's and not mine. "Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again ".

What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.  Thanks for answering.

 

Kind regards and Agape

 

 

Melinda

 

Neither you nor Eoin have posted anything that shows my statement misrepresents your beliefs at all.  In fact, your posts have confirmed that my statement is true.  I'm heartened that you are showing signs of reflecting on this important teaching.

[HollyW]

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Melinda, these things we research are from your organization, and not from outside sources. You are correct in this, however we bring these things up so that you and others can research them too. If there is another understanding, other than what we observe, by all means provide the information or link to clarify. You see, we are taking what the wt says and comparing it to scripture if it fits great but if not our question is why? 

I took the liberty to include Holly in my comment, and if I misrepresent her I expect her to correct me.

Exactly right, Shiwii.

[Ann O'Maly]

Finally, I've had time to read through this thread. Some observations:

I see that no scriptural support has yet been given for the idea that there will be a resurrection during the 1000 years. Where does the idea come from, then? 

It appears to be based on assumptions, i.e.,

1. that 'Judgment Day' isn't a specific point in time but a long period lasting 1000 years;

2. that there are two groups of Christian believers;

3. that the 'deeds' people will be judged on are those done during the 1000 years and not those done before they died ...

... which comes from the interpretation of Rom. 6:7 that once a person dies, they have been 'acquitted' from their sin ...

... in which case, the resurrected start with a clean slate but are still raised in imperfect bodies that can sin again, and it's really during the 1000 years that they are able to avail themselves of the merit of Christ's sacrifice (paradoxically by working toward perfection) ...

... which means that Christ's sacrifice doesn't atone for their sins committed before death in this present age, as their own deaths paid for their sins ...

... which goes against the gospel message (Rom. 3:21-26).

If Jesus' death does atone for sins committed before a believer's death, then why isn't that individual 'declared righteous for life' like the 'anointed' are? 

And yet, even with regard to the 'anointed' who are regarded as being 'declared righteous for life,' there is judgment based on what they did 'while in the body':

2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

This judgment for the 'anointed' doesn't last for 1000 years, does it? And they are judged according to what they did before they died and were raised as spirit beings, right?

Why the different standards between two groups?

This raises another conundrum because, if Adam died, he was acquitted of his sin too. So why do JWs insist that in his case, his 'Adamic death' doesn't acquit him of his sin? Where is the scriptural support for the idea that he has fast-tracked, without passing 'Go' and collecting $200, straight to the 'second death'?

Melinda mentioned 'willful sin.' Isn't much of our 'sin' 'willful' in some way or another? What about David? Was his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of her husband involuntary, accidental? Manasseh's offenses against God with his child sacrifices and false worship - were those lesser sins than Adam accepting his wife's offer of forbidden fruit to eat? 

Eoin talked about there being a difference between 'immortality' and 'everlasting life,' and that humans cannot be immortal due to their nature. But then, wasn't it argued that angels are not immortal either (one of Melinda's posts)? So what does a being's human nature have to do with it?

And does 'immortality' mean 'cannot die' or simply 'does not die' because the person has been granted a spirit-generated body - whatever the nature? If an immortal person 'cannot die,' doesn't this limit God's power or make the immortal person as indestructible as the Creator? On the other hand, if immortality means one doesn't die, and that life continues indefinitely, forever, or everlastingly, no matter what body the rewarded believer is given, it will always be dependent on God's life-giving spirit, would it not?