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Resurrection during the thousand year reign?

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(Revelation 20:1-7) "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

7 Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison."

=====================================================================

The key to understanding when the earthly resurrection takes place is in the clause "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)" at the start of verse 5. Since verse 4 states that the ones with "thrones... came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years," these ones who "came to life" means they were resurrected as perfect beings.

It would do no good for them to have NOTHING over which to rule as kings, it would have to be over the "great crowd... who come out of the great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9,13,14), as well as those not of "the first resurrection" of heavenly ones, but of the general resurrection. That all of these could be called "the rest of the dead" harmonizes with Ephesians 2:1: "Furthermore, God made you alive, though your were dead in your trespasses and sins." At the end of the 1,000 years, these achieve perfection, being completely free from sin, and so "come to life" at this point.

The foregoing shows that the general resurrection would have to take place during the 1,000 years, for those resurrected to "come to life" at the end of the 1,000 years.

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So basically, Glenn, it looks like you are arguing that the phrase 'came to life' has a different meaning depending on the group. 

One group is resurrected to perfection.

The other group is resurrected to imperfection ... until they've 'achieved' sin-free perfection at the end of the 1000 years.

Where is the scriptural evidence that one group has to 'achieve' perfection during the 1000 years?

If one group is resurrected perfect, why can it not be that the other group is resurrected perfect but at the end of the 1000 years, in harmony with the timing contained in v. 5's parenthesis? 

 

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20 hours ago, Glenn Leider said:

The key to understanding when the earthly resurrection takes place is in the clause "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)" at the start of verse 5. Since verse 4 states that the ones with "thrones... came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years," these ones who "came to life" means they were resurrected as perfect beings.

While I agree that this portion is key to understanding the whole, you seem to be omitting the fact that the rest of the dead did not come back to life until AFTER the 1000 years have ended. No matter what we think about what or whom will be ruled during the 1000 years, scripture still states that the second resurrection does not occur until after the 1000 years have ended. 

 

20 hours ago, Glenn Leider said:

The foregoing shows that the general resurrection would have to take place during the 1,000 years, for those resurrected to "come to life" at the end of the 1,000 years.

but you have not provided scripture that states or supports a resurrection during the thousand years, it is only a guess in your presentation of the idea. I want to know what scriptures are used to support the societies idea of a resurrection during the thousand years which is in direct opposition to Rev 20:5. 

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Those in the general resurrection as well as Armageddon survivors who are obedient during the 1000 years will come to life toward the end of the thousand years as the priestly services of Jesus and the 144,000 priest-kings will be applied to them.  They will be gradually healed of their imperfection or restored to the perfection the human race had before Adam sinned (rehabilitation).  It doesn't mean they are now being resurrected (out of the grave)  at the end of the 1000-year reign. It means they have been rehabilitated for that period through the priestly services of the King and his associates and they have now reached the state of perfection.  Just as Adam faced the test in the garden of Eden as a perfect person,  they will now face the final test and Satan will be let out of the abyss to do so. Those who submit to Jehovah's sovereignty, unlike Adam, will be granted eternal life.  See excerpt below.

*** re chap. 40 p. 290 Crushing the Serpent’s Head ***The Rest of the Dead

14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, (the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.

15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead. (Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!

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12 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

It doesn't mean they are now being resurrected (out of the grave)  at the end of the 1000-year reign.

Rev 20:13 says otherwise. 

 

12 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context.

from the context in verse 4, it is that of coming back to life from being dead, and the context doesn't change into verse 5. 

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Heavenly resurrection

Those of the first resurrection who have the heavenly calling will be resurrected perfect. They will no longer be subject to death.

(Romans 5:5)  Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ..

(Romans 5:18) 18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life.

 

(Romans 8:1)  Therefore, those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation.

 (1 Cor 15:53,54) 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”

(Revelation 20:6) Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

(Revelation 14:13) And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

Earthly Resurrection

In the earthly resurrection, those  coming back will be righteous as well as unrighteous people.

(John 5:28, 29) Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

They will not be made perfect apart from the 144,000, but through them (their healing services).

Faithful ones of old were declared righteous by their faith but in order to be perfect they need the priestly services of Jesus and the 144,000 after their resurrection.

Hebrews 11:39 And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.

(Revelation 22:1-2) And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations.

*** w12 1/15 p. 30 pars. 15-16 A Royal Priesthood to Benefit All Mankind ***

15 What benefits will the 144,000 bring to those on earth? Revelation chapter 21 portrays them as a heavenly city, New Jerusalem, called “the Lamb’s wife.” (Rev. 21:9) Verses 2 to 4 state: “I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’” What wonderful blessings! The elimination of death will remove the principal cause of tears, mourning, outcry, and pain. It will mean lifting faithful humans to perfection, completely reconciling them to God.

16 Further describing the blessings this royal priesthood will bring, Revelation 22:1, 2 states: “He showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of [New Jerusalem’s] broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations.” With these symbolic provisions, “the nations,” or family groups of mankind, will be completely cured of the imperfection inherited from Adam. Truly, ‘the former things will have passed away.’

 

 

 

 

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Shiwiii, how do you understand Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:23-28? There Paul spoke of those being brought back during "his presence". When he hands over the kingdom back to Jehovah at the end of the 1000 yrs, then all would be perfect, death will be swallowed up. All will have been raised from the grave. So how is it the way you reason does not jibe with what Paul is saying here in scripture? We all know that during Christ reign HIS VOICE, will call those from the grave, not his Father's correct? That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29. Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect. Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth. That is what scripture teaches. That is what you read from scripture, correct? The Bible is united in thought on this matter.

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1 hour ago, John Houston said:

Shiwiii, how do you understand Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:23-28? There Paul spoke of those being brought back during "his presence". When he hands over the kingdom back to Jehovah at the end of the 1000 yrs, then all would be perfect, death will be swallowed up. All will have been raised from the grave. So how is it the way you reason does not jibe with what Paul is saying here in scripture?

Glad you asked John. I don't understand your question of my reasoning not jiving with what Paul said. I am only using scripture.

1 Cor 15:23-28 is a description of the order of resurrection. First Christ, then those who belong to Christ. that part I think we agree on. The first resurrection. There is no mention of the second resurrection in 1 Cor 15:23-28. Where I think we differ is the establishment of "the end" in verse 24. This part is after the 1000 years, and after the release of Satan to again mislead, after everything. Notice though in verse 25, where scripture tells us that Jesus must reign until the last enemy is defeated (death). Where in Revelation does it talk about death being done away with? Rev 20:14 which comes directly after the second resurrection in verses 12&13. The account in 1 Cor is a brief synopsis of what is going to happen. We know that this is not written in chronological order because of what Revelation 20 says. It is telling us what order those who are resurrected will be, not when the events take place. This set of scriptures parallel those in 1 Thess 4:15&16. Again, there is no mention of a second resurrection in these set of scriptures either. 

2 hours ago, John Houston said:

We all know that during Christ reign HIS VOICE, will call those from the grave, not his Father's correct?

No and yes. Yes it will be Jesus voice. I say no because you are eluding to this happening during Jesus reign, it is not. 1 Thess 4:16 tells us that Jesus voice will raise those who died in Him, then those who are still alive, who are in Christ, will join those who were resurrected. We know that these ones are righteous because they are in Christ, so according to Rev 20:4&5 this has to be the first resurrection and they are those who will reign with Jesus. This happens at the return of Jesus as stated in 1 Thess 4:15. This allows for the co-rulers to actually rule for a full 1000 years. If it were just a few here and a few after 10 years and a few 400 years into the 1000 year reign, then there would be co-rulers who did not reign for the full 1000 years and scripture doesn't state "rule and reign for 600+ years of the 1000 year reign".

2 hours ago, John Houston said:

That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29.

yes, it is Jesus voice. John 5:28&29 supports Rev 20:12-15 as the 2nd resurrection. Daniel 12:2 also supports this account in John and Revelation. 

 

2 hours ago, John Houston said:

Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect.

I'm with you up to this point. 

 

2 hours ago, John Houston said:

Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth. That is what scripture teaches. That is what you read from scripture, correct? The Bible is united in thought on this matter.

Here is where I disagree, When everything is perfect is after Satan has been destroyed. Revelation 21 speaks of a new Heaven and a new Earth, thus made perfect. This can only happen after Satan has been defeated, or else it wouldn't be perfect. Revelation chapter 20 tells us nothing about everything being perfect, only that Jesus will rule and reign for 1000 years. There is nothing in scripture that speaks of this 1000 years of being made perfect, nor of a resurrection during the 1000 year reign. It is after the 1000 years that Satan, the beast, the false prophet and death and Hades are destroyed, then and only then can everything be perfect. 

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Shiwii, yet verse 28, of Paul's word state that when Jesus finished his reign, he will subject himself back to his Father, as he was in the beginning as it was before Adam sinned. That is what his reign will right. Jehovah will again be all things to everyone, we will all be united again in perfection. Standing as Adam was. Without satanic influence or sin. Then when he is release all mankind will have the opportunity as did Adam and Eve as perfect humans to make that choice to either stand with Jehovah or again side with Satan. And as scripture says some will fall again to sin. But none will have someone else to blame. And all will be destroyed along with Satan and his demons. Evil being destroyed forever! The meek possessing the earth. 

During those 1000 yrs. mankind fallen in death will be able to be healed; also the earth. Having heaven rid of satanic influence with Satan thrown from heaven, earth will be cleansed also. Sin and imperfection will be removed from earth. As the Lord's Prayer state, God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven. The dead in Jehovah's memory from Abel until the last one died, will be raised to life, under conditions they have never seen! Physically restored to perfection during Christ reign, taking advantage of the blood of his sacrifice. Fulfilling Isaiah words about him being Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor. Jesus will wear all these caps during his reign. As after that time he will take his position he held at the beginning, as the Word of God, subjecting himself under his Father as he was before. Jehovah being One to all, just as Paul wrote. 

Your beliefs are not based on scripture, all scripture, you have cherry-picked what you want to believe. You have that right. Paul reasoned with ones when he spoke, your statements make no sense. After the 1000 yrs., then the rest of the dead are brought back to life? When then is Satan released? When are we tested finally? When is Satan destroyed? Jehovah is not a God of disorder, right? So there will be order as the Bible reads throughout. He has not changed, correct? My parents will enjoy the 1000 yrs reign, hopefully with me, for I am trying my best to survive through the tribulation. And when the time comes a joyous time this earth will have. And after Satan and those who followed after him are destroyed, this again will be a joyous time. For we will have shown Jehovah God we want to be ruled by him. And what he wanted to show us, before sin happened we will be blown away. The things we will learn. Keep reading your Bible. Agape!

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Shiwii, yet verse 28, of Paul's word state that when Jesus finished his reign, he will subject himself back to his Father, as he was in the beginning as it was before Adam sinned. - John

 

You are reading into the verse something that is just not there.

1 Cor 15:28 "when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be all in all."

Ask yourself what are the "all things", how can all things be subjected if death, hades and Satan are not yet abolished in your version? Those would be things that are not in subjection,  thus this would not fit this scripture. 

During those 1000 yrs. mankind fallen in death will be able to be healed; also the earth. -John

Again, you do not provide scripture to support this claim.

Your beliefs are not based on scripture, all scripture, you have cherry-picked what you want to believe. - John

All one has to do is read my post and see that scripture supports what I'm saying,  because scripture is used. 

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I am laughing at your reasoning. What is being read into what I said? If what Paul said about "all things", would that mean the things, the same as the former things upon earth which will be done away with? Wow, how can a sensible person miss this? When Jesus hand back the Kingdom reins, would not it be finish, would not AT THAT MOMENT death be swallowed up? Before Adam rebelled, wasn't death just an idea? The same is true in what Paul is saying. Until Satan is released, until we are retested as perfect humans, under the same conditions as Adam and Eve then we will prove ourselves, then we will set aside those for destruction with Satan. You are twisted in your thinking your reasoning with scripture. That is your right. Ones like you feed off of debate from ones like me, but even Jesus walked away. So am I. 

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49 minutes ago, John Houston said:

I am laughing at your reasoning. What is being read into what I said? If what Paul said about "all things", would that mean the things, the same as the former things upon earth which will be done away with? 

I will show you exactly what you said and how you are reading into the scripture something that isn't there: 

 

21 hours ago, John Houston said:

Shiwii, yet verse 28, of Paul's word state that when Jesus finished his reign, he will subject himself back to his Father, as he was in the beginning as it was before Adam sinned.

again in verse 28 you seem to believe this takes place prior to the eradication of death, satan and hades.

Here is YOUR words:

On 6/21/2016 at 0:04 PM, John Houston said:

That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29. Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect. Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth.

Do you see here where you believe that Satan is still around? last sentence you wrote. 

What part of Satan still being around is everything subjected to Jesus? Its not. You need to go back and think this one through again, or clarify your position better. 

 

55 minutes ago, John Houston said:

Wow, how can a sensible person miss this? When Jesus hand back the Kingdom reins, would not it be finish, would not AT THAT MOMENT death be swallowed up?

yes, however your timeline does not fit the timeline given in Revelation 20. It is only when ALL THINGS are then subject to Jesus does this happen and that is not until Satan, hades and death have been cast away (Rev 20:14), then the kingdom is handed back over. 

 

58 minutes ago, John Houston said:

You are twisted in your thinking your reasoning with scripture.

I am taking scripture as it is and basing my point upon it. You however still fail in providing scripture to support a resurrection DURING the 1000 year reign. 

1 hour ago, John Houston said:

Ones like you feed off of debate from ones like me, but even Jesus walked away. So am I. 

This is your get out of jail free card, so you can run away from what scripture says, not me. I'm ok with that, seen it many many times. 

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On 6/20/2016 at 2:50 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

So basically, Glenn, it looks like you are arguing that the phrase 'came to life' has a different meaning depending on the group. 

One group is resurrected to perfection.

The other group is resurrected to imperfection ... until they've 'achieved' sin-free perfection at the end of the 1000 years.

Where is the scriptural evidence that one group has to 'achieve' perfection during the 1000 years?

If one group is resurrected perfect, why can it not be that the other group is resurrected perfect but at the end of the 1000 years, in harmony with the timing contained in v. 5's parenthesis? 

 

Hi Ann,

Good point and good question.  I always wondered why "come to life" was interpreted so differently by the WTS in this passage..  As you pointed  out, in one instance they say "come to life" means one thing, and in the very next sentence "come to life" means something else.  And actually in the second instance they have it not meaning "resurrected" at all, but more like "self-improvement" (i.e. improving oneself thru study of WT publications until able to meet God's standards mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually---and can thereafter stand before God and continue to live based on ones own merit......continuing to live for as long as they don't sin and get annihilated in the lake of fire.)

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On 6/19/2016 at 6:05 PM, Glenn Leider said:

(Revelation 20:1-7) "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

7 Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison."

=====================================================================

The key to understanding when the earthly resurrection takes place is in the clause "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)" at the start of verse 5. Since verse 4 states that the ones with "thrones... came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years," these ones who "came to life" means they were resurrected as perfect beings.

It would do no good for them to have NOTHING over which to rule as kings, it would have to be over the "great crowd... who come out of the great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9,13,14), as well as those not of "the first resurrection" of heavenly ones, but of the general resurrection. That all of these could be called "the rest of the dead" harmonizes with Ephesians 2:1: "Furthermore, God made you alive, though your were dead in your trespasses and sins." At the end of the 1,000 years, these achieve perfection, being completely free from sin, and so "come to life" at this point.

The foregoing shows that the general resurrection would have to take place during the 1,000 years, for those resurrected to "come to life" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Hi Glenn,

I'm glad you posted the passage there in Revelation 20 because it shows the two occurrences of "come/came to life", one following the other in adjacent posts. (I hope there's spell check here. :)

Why is the second "come to life" called a resurrection?  Do you view those on earth as being dead until the end of the 1,000 years?

 

 

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On 6/20/2016 at 7:00 PM, Melinda Mills said:

Those in the general resurrection as well as Armageddon survivors who are obedient during the 1000 years will come to life toward the end of the thousand years as the priestly services of Jesus and the 144,000 priest-kings will be applied to them.  They will be gradually healed of their imperfection or restored to the perfection the human race had before Adam sinned (rehabilitation).  It doesn't mean they are now being resurrected (out of the grave)  at the end of the 1000-year reign. It means they have been rehabilitated for that period through the priestly services of the King and his associates and they have now reached the state of perfection.  Just as Adam faced the test in the garden of Eden as a perfect person,  they will now face the final test and Satan will be let out of the abyss to do so. Those who submit to Jehovah's sovereignty, unlike Adam, will be granted eternal life.  See excerpt below.

*** re chap. 40 p. 290 Crushing the Serpent’s Head ***The Rest of the Dead

14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, (the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.

15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead. (Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!

Hi Melinda,

So, when Abraham is resurrected during the 1,000 years, will he be considered righteous, or will he be considered dead until the end of the 1,000 years?

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On 6/21/2016 at 11:38 AM, Melinda Mills said:

 

Melinda, you say that the ones in the first resurrection won't be subject to death.  What about those in the resurrection when the 1,000 years have ended?  After the final test at the end of the Millennium, will it be possible for those folks to sin and die?

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On 6/21/2016 at 0:04 PM, John Houston said:

Shiwiii, how do you understand Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:23-28? There Paul spoke of those being brought back during "his presence". When he hands over the kingdom back to Jehovah at the end of the 1000 yrs, then all would be perfect, death will be swallowed up. All will have been raised from the grave. So how is it the way you reason does not jibe with what Paul is saying here in scripture? We all know that during Christ reign HIS VOICE, will call those from the grave, not his Father's correct? That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29. Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect. Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth. That is what scripture teaches. That is what you read from scripture, correct? The Bible is united in thought on this matter.

Hi John,

Are you saying the resurrection during "his presence" is the same one that takes place during the 1,000 year reign?

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4 hours ago, HollyW said:

Melinda, you say that the ones in the first resurrection won't be subject to death.  What about those in the resurrection when the 1,000 years have ended?  After the final test at the end of the Millennium, will it be possible for those folks to sin and die?

Short Answer

The second death will also be kept on the books for the possibility that someone in the future may decide to get 'ideas' about rebelling against God's sovereignty. However, after the final test that is highly unlikely. But God is always prepared. Nahum 1:9 says "Distress will not rise up a second time". All those who pass the final test will have proved their love for Jehovah and his sovereignty.

Embellished answer

Provided you understand that will happen at the final test.

Some will sin willfully like Adam and Eve, joining with Satan.  Adamic death will be cast into the lake of fire which means it will be done away with.  These willfully wicked ones will not be dying because of sickness or imperfection (Adamic death). They will be executed by Jehovah's Son. Their destruction is called the second death just like that of Satan and his demons. Rev 20: 7-10.  (Lake of fire and second death means the same thing - eternal cutting off)

(Revelation 20:7-10) Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In the case of the angels in heaven the majority are still serving God faithfully despite what the angel that is now called Satan (and the others spirit creatures who joined him) did. They are living forever but they do not have immortality. Humans will be able to live forever once they continue being obedient.  Don't forget that Adam chose to disobey and ignore Jehovah's sovereignty while he was perfect. Likewise some who are rehabilitated to perfection will still fall away like Adam back then. After the 1000 years some will chose to do the same.  However, the ones who pass the final test will be written in the book of life. And we believe these will be the majority as they will have witnessed God's superabundant love during the 1000-year reign and will be loyal to Him and his Son.

Those resurrected and being rehabilitated will be judged by the things written in the scrolls - not what they did before they died.

So even though righteous people like Abraham, Job, David, etc., will be resurrected during the 1000-year reign, they will have to brought to perfection.- even though the text says theirs will be a resurrection to life.

(John 5:25-30) 25 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

(Revelation 20:12-15) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

So for obedient people like Abraham their resurrection will prove to be a resurrection of life, once they continue their obedient course.  For some unrighteous resurrected ones their being given a chance to learn righteousness will result in their not benefiting, as they will either do things that will stop them from being perfected  (Isaiah 65:20 and Isaiah 26:10) ) or they will be perfected but then do like Adam and Eve. They will reject Jehovah after being perfected humans. Thus their resurrection will prove to be a resurrection of judgement.

(Isaiah 26:10) Even if the wicked is shown favor, He will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah.

(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.

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7 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

 

So even though righteous people like Abraham, Job, David, etc., will be resurrected during the 1000-year reign, they will have to brought to perfection.- even though the text says theirs will be a resurrection to life.

Can you provide scripture to back up this claim of a resurrection during the thousand year reign?  

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HollyW, the answer is no! During Christ 'presence' which began when after sitting at his Father right hand for a time, he then was given the kingly authority. He first removed all of satanic influence from heaven. Such the war in heaven. Then those who were to be in heaven with him, the apostle's, his mother, those firstfriuts. And then any of the 144,000 dying faithful, would be trans formed in a twinkling of an eye not remaining in the grave. That is the understanding from scripture. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, the remaining ones of the heavenly class will be called up to heaven, to take part in the removal of wickedness from the earth, being sealed with their brothers; kings and priests with Jesus Christ! 

Having destroyed governments and wicked off the earth, Satan and his demons are abyssed for the 1000 yrs., while Jesus reigns. During this time survivors are healed from sin and imperfection, the earth from the devastating effects of mankind before. Those who succumbed to death and are in Jehovah's memory will hear Jesus' voice as he calls them forth from the common Grave, back to perfect life under much better conditions. Learning from the "opened scrolls" all the earth will be united in the knowledge of Jehovah , as John seen in vision eating from the tree of life, so to speak. Gaining access to the status that Adam and Eve had before our Heavenly Father , before Satan is loosed one last time.

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5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Short Answer

The second death will also be kept on the books for the possibility that someone in the future may decide to get 'ideas' about rebelling against God's sovereignty. However, after the final test that is highly unlikely. But God is always prepared. Nahum 1:9 says "Distress will not rise up a second time". All those who pass the final test will have proved their love for Jehovah and his sovereignty.

Thanks for your answer, Melinda.  I find it at odds with the Bible though:

Revelation 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

It says "death shall be no more".

There's also these scriptures:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

But thanks for your reply anyway. ;)

 

Holly

 

 

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Quote

Quoting John Houston's post:

HollyW, the answer is no! During Christ 'presence' which began when after sitting at his Father right hand for a time, he then was given the kingly authority. He first removed all of satanic influence from heaven. Such the war in heaven. Then those who were to be in heaven with him, the apostle's, his mother, those firstfriuts. And then any of the 144,000 dying faithful, would be trans formed in a twinkling of an eye not remaining in the grave. That is the understanding from scripture. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, the remaining ones of the heavenly class will be called up to heaven, to take part in the removal of wickedness from the earth, being sealed with their brothers; kings and priests with Jesus Christ! 

Having destroyed governments and wicked off the earth, Satan and his demons are abyssed for the 1000 yrs., while Jesus reigns. During this time survivors are healed from sin and imperfection, the earth from the devastating effects of mankind before. Those who succumbed to death and are in Jehovah's memory will hear Jesus' voice as he calls them forth from the common Grave, back to perfect life under much better conditions. Learning from the "opened scrolls" all the earth will be united in the knowledge of Jehovah , as John seen in vision eating from the tree of life, so to speak. Gaining access to the status that Adam and Eve had before our Heavenly Father , before Satan is loosed one last time.

===============================================================

Thanks, John, for that explanation.  This resurrection you describe as being during Jesus' presence is the one in the following passage, isn't it?

1 Thessalonians 4:16:17  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

And you describe it as taking place over quite a long period of time, rather than as the short period of time the Bible shows it to be.

So....how do you explain that discrepancy?

 

Holly

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Can you provide scripture to back up this claim of a resurrection during the thousand year reign?  

The one they keep bringing up is the one the Bible says takes place, not during, but at the end of the thousand year reign.

And notice what those ones are judged on:  the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (Revelation 20:12)  Can their deeds save them?  Of course not, otherwise they might boast that they earned their own salvation, apart from Christ, which is actually what the WTS teaches them they will have to do, forever, they will continue to live for only as long as they merit it on their own.

The WTS teaches that only 144,000 people are declared righteous for life by God based on their faith in Jesus and he uses this declaration of righteousness to them as the basis for adopting them as his sons, acquitting them of all guilt due to sin, crediting them as being completely righteous persons with all their sins being forgiven and not charged against them. Once they have been declared righteous for life by God and adopted as his sons, he credits them with holiness because of their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ. Because of Jehovah's confidence in them that they will never sin again, he grants them immortality and incorruption in the first resurrection.

Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

 

Holly

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14 hours ago, HollyW said:

Thanks for your answer, Melinda.  I find it at odds with the Bible though:

Revelation 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

It says "death shall be no more".

There's also these scriptures:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

But thanks for your reply anyway. ;)

 

Holly

 

 

Everything you said is correct. Adamic death will be no more.  However the second death is the option to be exercised only by Jehovah to execute willful sinners.

Do some more study to understand the difference between second death, and Adamic death.  Gehenna, the lake of fire and second death are the same.

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52 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Everything you said is correct. Adamic death will be no more.  However the second death is the option to be exercised only by Jehovah to execute willful sinners.

Do some more study to understand the difference between second death, and Adamic death.  Gehenna, the lake of fire and second death are the same.

Adamic death?  Is that the death Adam suffered?

I must have missed that phrase "Adamic death" in my study of the scriptures that say death shall be no more, death will be swallowed up forever, death with be brought to nothing.

Revelation 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

For those you say are resurrected during the millennium, when does Revelation 21:4 become a reality for them?

 

Holly

 

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21 hours ago, John Houston said:

HollyW, the answer is no! During Christ 'presence' which began when after sitting at his Father right hand for a time, he then was given the kingly authority. He first removed all of satanic influence from heaven. Such the war in heaven. Then those who were to be in heaven with him, the apostle's, his mother, those firstfriuts. And then any of the 144,000 dying faithful, would be trans formed in a twinkling of an eye not remaining in the grave. That is the understanding from scripture. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, the remaining ones of the heavenly class will be called up to heaven, to take part in the removal of wickedness from the earth, being sealed with their brothers; kings and priests with Jesus Christ! 

Having destroyed governments and wicked off the earth, Satan and his demons are abyssed for the 1000 yrs., while Jesus reigns. During this time survivors are healed from sin and imperfection, the earth from the devastating effects of mankind before. Those who succumbed to death and are in Jehovah's memory will hear Jesus' voice as he calls them forth from the common Grave, back to perfect life under much better conditions. Learning from the "opened scrolls" all the earth will be united in the knowledge of Jehovah , as John seen in vision eating from the tree of life, so to speak. Gaining access to the status that Adam and Eve had before our Heavenly Father , before Satan is loosed one last time.

This is a nice story, but it would be much more believed if it had scriptural backing. In particular the scripture that I asked in the beginning of this post. :

On 6/19/2016 at 3:42 PM, Shiwiii said:

Can someone point me to the scriptures used by the society that state there is a resurrection during  the thousand year reign. 

 

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Answer for Holly

 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

*** re chap. 41 God’s Day of Judgment—Its Joyful Outcome! ***

Opening Other Scrolls

13 How must these resurrected ones demonstrate their obedience? Jesus himself pointed to the two great commandments, saying: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Mark 12:29-31) There are also Jehovah’s well-established principles that they must follow, such as to repudiate stealing, lying, murdering, and immorality.—1 Timothy 1:8-11; Revelation 21:8.

14 However, John has just mentioned other scrolls that will be opened during the Millennial Reign. (Revelation 20:12) What will these be? At times, Jehovah has given specific instructions for particular situations. For example, in Moses’ day he provided a detailed series of laws that meant life for the Israelites if they obeyed. (Deuteronomy 4:40; 32:45-47) During the first century, new instructions were given to help faithful ones to follow Jehovah’s principles under the Christian system of things. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 13:34; 15:9, 10) Now John reports that the dead are to be “judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Evidently, then, the opening of these scrolls will publish Jehovah’s detailed requirements for mankind during the thousand years. By applying in their lives the regulations and commandments of those scrolls, obedient humans will be able to lengthen their days, attaining finally to everlasting life.

15 What an extensive campaign of theocratic education will be needed! In 2005, Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide were conducting, on the average, 6,061,534 Bible studies in various locations. But during the resurrection, countless millions of studies, based on the Bible and the new scrolls, will no doubt be conducted! All of God’s people will need to become teachers and to exert themselves. Resurrected ones, as they progress, will no doubt share in this vast teaching program. Likely, the resurrection will proceed in such a way that those who are alive may have the joy of welcoming and instructing former family members and acquaintances, who, in their turn, may welcome and instruct others. (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:19-28, 58.) The more than six million Witnesses of Jehovah who are active in spreading the truth today are laying a good foundation for the privileges they hope to have during the resurrection.—Isaiah 50:4; 54:13.

16 With regard to the earthly resurrection, Jesus said that ‘those who did good things come out to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.’ Here “life” and “judgment” contrast with each other, showing that those resurrected ones who “practiced vile things” after being instructed in the inspired Scriptures and scrolls are judged to be unworthy of life. Their names will not be written in the scroll, or book, of life. (John 5:29) This would also be true of any who previously followed a faithful course but who, for some reason, turn aside during the Thousand Year Reign. Names can be erased. (Exodus 32:32, 33) On the other hand, those who obediently follow the things written in the scrolls will keep their names on the written record, the scroll of life, and continue living. For them, the resurrection will have proved to be one “of life.”

The End of Death and Hades

17 Next, John describes something truly wonderful! “And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14, 15) By the end of the millennial Judgment Day, “death and Hades” are completely removed. Why does this involve a thousand years? Hades, the common grave of all mankind, is emptied when the last one in God’s memory is resurrected. But as long as any humans are tainted by inherited sin, Adamic death is still with them. All those resurrected on earth, as well as the great crowd that survives Armageddon, will need to obey what is written in the scrolls until Jesus’ ransom merit has been applied in fully removing sickness, old age, and other inherited disabilities. Then Adamic death, along with Hades, is “hurled into the lake of fire.” They will be gone forever!

18 Thus, the program that the apostle Paul describes in his letter to the Corinthians will come to completion: “For [Jesus] must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, [Adamic] death is to be brought to nothing.” What happens next? “When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him.” In other words, Jesus “hands over the kingdom to his God and Father.” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) Yes, Jesus, having conquered Adamic death through the merit of his ransom sacrifice, will hand over a perfected human family to his Father, Jehovah. It is evidently at this point, at the end of the thousand years, that Satan is released and the final test takes place to determine whose names will remain permanently recorded in the scroll of life. “Exert yourselves vigorously” so that your name may be among them!—Luke 13:24; Revelation 20:5.

[Footnote]

Those resurrected from the sea would not include earth’s corrupted inhabitants that perished in the Deluge of Noah’s day; that destruction was final, as will be the execution of Jehovah’s judgment in the great tribulation.—Matthew 25:41, 46; 2 Peter 3:5-7.

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4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Answer for Holly

 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

*** re chap. 41 God’s Day of Judgment—Its Joyful Outcome! ***

 The End of Death and Hades

17 Next, John describes something truly wonderful! “And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14, 15) By the end of the millennial Judgment Day, “death and Hades” are completely removed. Why does this involve a thousand years? Hades, the common grave of all mankind, is emptied when the last one in God’s memory is resurrected. But as long as any humans are tainted by inherited sin, Adamic death is still with them. All those resurrected on earth, as well as the great crowd that survives Armageddon, will need to obey what is written in the scrolls until Jesus’ ransom merit has been applied in fully removing sickness, old age, and other inherited disabilities. Then Adamic death, along with Hades, is “hurled into the lake of fire.” They will be gone forever!

18 Thus, the program that the apostle Paul describes in his letter to the Corinthians will come to completion: “For [Jesus] must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, [Adamic] death is to be brought to nothing.” What happens next? “When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him.” In other words, Jesus “hands over the kingdom to his God and Father.” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) Yes, Jesus, having conquered Adamic death through the merit of his ransom sacrifice, will hand over a perfected human family to his Father, Jehovah. It is evidently at this point, at the end of the thousand years, that Satan is released and the final test takes place to determine whose names will remain permanently recorded in the scroll of life. “Exert yourselves vigorously” so that your name may be among them!—Luke 13:24; Revelation 20:5.

 

Dear Melinda, 

These four times that "Adamic death" appears in your post, none of them are in scripture, are they.  In fact, you had to insert "Adamic" into the quote of the scripture you used because it is not there in the Bible.  

 1 Corinthians 15:225-26  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Do you see why I said what you posted was at odds with the Bible?

Is it your belief that "Adamic death" is the death Adam suffered?

Holly

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Adamic death is what all mankind suffer. It will be done away with during the millennium. How else will people live until the end of the millennium and progress to perfection. 

Romans 5:12 says: (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adamic death is what all mankind suffer. It will be done away with during the millennium. How else will people live until the end of the millennium and progress to perfection. 

Where is the scriptures that support this? Your Romans quote doesn't say any of this. It appears to me that these theorys have no scriptural basis.

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On 6/24/2016 at 05:43, HollyW said:

Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

 

Ad well as misrepresenting the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, this statement appears to confuse the concepts of immortality in the heavens and everlasting life on earth. I don't think it is necessary to revisit the many scriptures already quoted to establish the fact that the vast majority of human servants of Jehovah will live on earth as humans, but without the curse of sin and it's companion death.

The word in scripture for immortality (athanasia) is said to mean deathlessness as a quality of life. Because it goes hand in hand with incorruption, (1 Cor.15:53), the description at Heb.7:16 of Jesus having indissoluble life ("indestructible" NWT, rather than the weak "endless" in KJV) is apt. This is the quality or nature of life he enjoys and also is enjoyed by the 144000 who are resurrected to rule with him in the heavens.

However, by it's very nature, human life cannot be immortal. As long as humans are alive on earth, which will be forever (Ps.37:29), they will need to breath the right mix of gases, eat the right balance of nutrients, sleep when tired, eliminate waste products, repair worn or damaged tissue, and do whatever else is required to maintain physically the organism with which Jehovah endowed his human creation. And then, their obedience to the requirements of the creator, for whose purpose they were created and given that living organism, will ensure that that grant of life will be, just as the Bible says, everlasting but never immortal.

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What next?

*** Bible Citations ***

(Isaiah 59:10) We grope for the wall like blind men; Like those without eyes we keep groping. We stumble at high noon as in evening darkness; Among the strong we are just like the dead.

 

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9 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adamic death is what all mankind suffer. It will be done away with during the millennium. How else will people live until the end of the millennium and progress to perfection. 

Romans 5:12 says: (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply, Melinda. :)

But you don't believe "Adamic death" is what Adam suffered, do you? 

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

When God said to Adam, "you will surely die", was that a reference to what you call "Adamic death"?

Also, "progress to perfection"......where is that in the Bible in reference to the millennium?

 

Holly

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

Thanks for your reply, Melinda. :)

But you don't believe "Adamic death" is what Adam suffered, do you? 

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

When God said to Adam, "you will surely die", was that a reference to what you call "Adamic death"?

Also, "progress to perfection"......where is that in the Bible in reference to the millennium?

 

Holly

Yes, Adamic death is what Adam suffered as well as all of us, his children, for the last 6000 years.

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20 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Yes, Adamic death is what Adam suffered as well as all of us, his children, for the last 6000 years.

So Adam didn't suffer the second death....the death you say is never gone?

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5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Ad well as misrepresenting the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, this statement appears to confuse the concepts of immortality in the heavens and everlasting life on earth. I don't think it is necessary to revisit the many scriptures already quoted to establish the fact that the vast majority of human servants of Jehovah will live on earth as humans, but without the curse of sin and it's companion death.

The word in scripture for immortality (athanasia) is said to mean deathlessness as a quality of life. Because it goes hand in hand with incorruption, (1 Cor.15:53), the description at Heb.7:16 of Jesus having indissoluble life ("indestructible" NWT, rather than the weak "endless" in KJV) is apt. This is the quality or nature of life he enjoys and also is enjoyed by the 144000 who are resurrected to rule with him in the heavens.

However, by it's very nature, human life cannot be immortal. As long as humans are alive on earth, which will be forever (Ps.37:29), they will need to breath the right mix of gases, eat the right balance of nutrients, sleep when tired, eliminate waste products, repair worn or damaged tissue, and do whatever else is required to maintain physically the organism with which Jehovah endowed his human creation. And then, their obedience to the requirements of the creator, for whose purpose they were created and given that living organism, will ensure that that grant of life will be, just as the Bible says, everlasting but never immortal.

Excuse me, Eoin, you will have to offer some sort of evidence that I have in any way misrepresented JW beliefs in my statement that you are referring to:  Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

In fact, what you went on to post actually substantiates that what I said is true about the beliefs of JWs, they don't expect to ever have everlasting life (other than their anointed class), they are told they will just have continuing life, for as long as they merit it on their own righteousness.

Having the perfection of Adam and Eve is not being saved. Having the holiness and righteousness of Jesus is what saves us; our belief in him gives us that and all of our sins are forgiven in God's sight because of that. Even the WTS recognizes this as a Bible teaching, it's just that they say it's only for a small segment of believers, numbering only 144,000, and not for any other believer. 

That's why Shiwii's question has still not been answered. There is no scripture that says there's a resurrection that takes place during the 1,000 years.  The resurrection that takes place at the end of the 1,000 years has been moved by the WTS to take place during the 1,000 years; and it has been changed from being a resurrection to being a self-help sort of educational program to teach people how to be as perfect as Adam was before he sinned, so that they can eventually meet all of God's standards mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually, and can then stand before God on their own merit rather than on the merit of Jesus Christ

Holly

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53 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Excuse me, Eoin, you will have to offer some sort of evidence that I have in any way misrepresented JW beliefs in my statement that you are referring to:  Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

Let the readers judge.

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34 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Let the readers judge.

Thanks, Eoin, I knew you didn't have anything to support what you said. ;)

 

Holly

 

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4 hours ago, HollyW said:

So Adam didn't suffer the second death....the death you say is never gone?

I am kind of rushing this week. We have lots of activities and a regional convention coming up this weekend.  So sometimes I might forget something or the discussion might be disjointed. Thanks for mentioning this point.  As a willful sinner Adam suffered the second death as well. All other willful sinners will suffer this death as well.  There are some humans who will not get a resurrection because of their willful actions and attitudes. That's why Jesus said all those in the memorial tombs will come out (John 5:28).   If you don't wish to use the term Adamic death, just use death. But try to learn something and discern the meanings as everything is not always spelled out.  Jesus said that if everything is written the world will not be able to contain the scrolls. (John 21:25)  Don't let us search the scriptures just because we can, let us let us pray for discernment and understanding so we may act and be saved.

(John 5:39) 39 “You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.

w14 9/15 pp. 25-27 The Last Enemy, Death, Brought to Nothing ***

ADAMIC SIN AND DEATH BROUGHT TO NOTHING

10 Yes, Jehovah could rescue Paul. Directly after mentioning “the shroud,” Isaiah wrote: “He will swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.” (Isa. 25:8) Like a father who removes the cause of his children’s suffering and dries their eyes, Jehovah takes great joy in bringing Adamic death to nothing! In this he has a collaborator. First Corinthians 15:22 reads: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” Similarly, after Paul asked “Who will rescue me?” he continued: “Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Rom. 7:25) Plainly, the love that moved Jehovah to create mankind did not grow cold with the rebellion of Adam and Eve. And the one who shared with Jehovah in the work of bringing the first couple into existence did not lose his special fondness for their offspring. (Prov. 8:30, 31) But how would this rescue be accomplished?

11 Human imperfection and death involve both the sin Adam committed and Jehovah’s righteous judgment. (Rom. 5:12, 16) We read: “Through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation.” (Rom. 5:18) What could Jehovah do to remove his condemnatory judgment without invalidating his own standards? We find the answer in Jesus’ words: “The Son of man came . . . to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matt. 20:28) The one who was Jehovah’s first spirit son made clear that he, having been born on earth as a perfect human, would provide a ransom. How would this ransom satisfy justice?—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.

12 As a perfect man, Jesus had prospects similar to those of Adam before he sinned. Jehovah’s purpose was to fill the earth with Adam’s perfect offspring. Hence, with deep love for his Father and for Adam’s descendants, Jesus gave up his human life in sacrifice. Yes, Jesus gave up a perfect human life that corresponded to what Adam had lost. Thereafter, Jehovah restored his Son to life as a spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18) Jehovah could justly accept the sacrifice of that one perfect man, Jesus, as a ransom, or purchase price, to buy back Adam’s family and give them the life prospects that Adam had forfeited. In a sense, Jesus took the place of Adam. Paul explains: “So it is written: ‘The first man Adam became a living person.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”—1 Cor. 15:45.

13 The time will finally come for “the last Adam” to act as “a life-giving spirit” toward mankind in general. The majority of Adam’s offspring will be brought back to life. Why? Because they have already lived and died. They will need a resurrection, a returning to life on earth.—John 5:28, 29.

14 How would mankind be freed from their struggle with inherited imperfection? Jehovah provided for a Kingdom government made up of “the last Adam” and chosen associates from among mankind. (Read Revelation 5:9, 10.) Those associated with Jesus in heaven will have experienced what it means to be imperfect. For a full thousand years, their joint rulership will provide assistance to those on earth, helping them to overcome the imperfection that they could not conquer on their own.—Rev. 20:6.

15 By the end of the thousand years of Kingdom rule, obedient mankind will have been liberated from all enemies introduced by Adam’s disobedience. The Bible says: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ [his joint rulers] during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.” (1 Cor. 15:22-26) Yes, death inherited from Adam will at last be done away with. “The shroud” that entraps the entire human family will have been removed forever.—Isa. 25:7, 8.

 *** it-1 p. 596 Death ***

Cause of Death in Humans. The first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at Genesis 2:16, 17 in God’s command to the first man concerning the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, violation of which command would result in death. (See NW ftn.) However, death among animals as a natural process was evidently already in effect, since they are passed over completely in the Biblical presentation of the introduction of death into the human family. (Compare 2Pe 2:12.) The gravity of God’s warning about the death penalty for disobedience would therefore be understandable to his human son, Adam. Adam’s disobedience to his Creator brought death to him. (Ge 3:19; Jas 1:14, 15) Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all men.—Ro 5:12; 6:23.

 

 

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See some insight into the "first death" and the second death.

 

*** ka chap. 9 pp. 157-158 pars. 26-27 The Post-Millennial Test of All Mankind ***

26 The death symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is different from the death inherited by mankind from Adam in that it is not like a sleep terminated by an awakening but is a total destruction, an endless death. Death received from Adam as an inheritance was the ‘first death.’ This different kind of death as symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is therefore fittingly called “the second death.” This is what it stands for in the case of those humans on earth who enter into the thousand-year Judgment Day and who later do not get their names written in God’s “book of life.” The inspired Scriptures give the significance of the “lake of fire” for such ones unworthy of everlasting life, saying: “And death and Haʹdes were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20:14, 15.

27 This divine explanation of what the “lake of fire” symbolizes is borne witness to a second time, a few verses later, where we read: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:7, 8) All such references to the “lake of fire” being so close together, in the same context in Revelation, chapters 19-21, then what the “lake of fire” means for those humans not found written on the “book of life” it means also for Satan the Devil and his demons. It means “the second death.” It does not mean necessarily dying a second time, but dying the second kind of death that the Bible speaks about, and that is an endless death.

 

*** ka chap. 8 What to Expect When the Millennial Judgment Day Ends ***16 The millennial Judgment Day will not fail of its purpose. By the time of its end all the willing and obedient will have been trained in true justice and righteousness to perfection. Their physical and mental infirmities inherited from Adam and Eve will be done away with. They are now capable in all respects to measure up to God’s absolute standards of righteousness, in themselves. Does Jesus Christ as the Chief Judge now bestow upon them the right to eternal life in a peaceful earth all glorious in paradisaic beauty? No! In this regard he does not act for God, for he knows that it is written: “God is the One who declares them righteous.” (Romans 8:33)

 

 If you wish to hear more of this, let me know.

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5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

I am kind of rushing this week. We have lots of activities and a regional convention coming up this weekend.  So sometimes I might forget something or the discussion might be disjointed. Thanks for mentioning this point.  As a willful sinner Adam suffered the second death as well. All other willful sinners will suffer this death as well.  There are some humans who will not get a resurrection because of their willful actions and attitudes. That's why Jesus said all those in the memorial tombs will come out (John 5:28).   If you don't wish to use the term Adamic death, just use death. But try to learn something and discern the meanings as everything is not always spelled out.  Jesus said that if everything is written the world will not be able to contain the scrolls. (John 21:25)  Don't let us search the scriptures just because we can, let us let us pray for discernment and understanding so we may act and be saved.

(John 5:39) 39 “You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.

 

Ah, yes, John 5:39  You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Very powerful scripture.

Now, John 5:28   Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Why did you call them "memorial" tombs?  I haven't found any Bible translation that has that other than the NWT.

Sounds like you're going to be busy for a while so I'll wait to hear from you again.  In the meantime, while you go about your activities, consider something for me, okay?

Consider: Revelation 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 

    Hello guest!
 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

And ponder how the truth of these verses can possibly be reconciled with a world where the second death, what you say is annihilation in the lake of fire, is forever a possibility for you and/or your loved ones and friends, every day that you wake up, for ever and ever, with no savior, no ransom, no mediator between you and God.

 

Holly

 

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4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

See some insight into the "first death" and the second death.

 

*** ka chap. 9 pp. 157-158 pars. 26-27 The Post-Millennial Test of All Mankind ***

26 The death symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is different from the death inherited by mankind from Adam in that it is not like a sleep terminated by an awakening but is a total destruction, an endless death. Death received from Adam as an inheritance was the ‘first death.’ This different kind of death as symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is therefore fittingly called “the second death.” This is what it stands for in the case of those humans on earth who enter into the thousand-year Judgment Day and who later do not get their names written in God’s “book of life.” The inspired Scriptures give the significance of the “lake of fire” for such ones unworthy of everlasting life, saying: “And death and Haʹdes were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20:14, 15.

27 This divine explanation of what the “lake of fire” symbolizes is borne witness to a second time, a few verses later, where we read: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:7, 8) All such references to the “lake of fire” being so close together, in the same context in Revelation, chapters 19-21, then what the “lake of fire” means for those humans not found written on the “book of life” it means also for Satan the Devil and his demons. It means “the second death.” It does not mean necessarily dying a second time, but dying the second kind of death that the Bible speaks about, and that is an endless death.

 

*** ka chap. 8 What to Expect When the Millennial Judgment Day Ends ***16 The millennial Judgment Day will not fail of its purpose. By the time of its end all the willing and obedient will have been trained in true justice and righteousness to perfection. Their physical and mental infirmities inherited from Adam and Eve will be done away with. They are now capable in all respects to measure up to God’s absolute standards of righteousness, in themselves. Does Jesus Christ as the Chief Judge now bestow upon them the right to eternal life in a peaceful earth all glorious in paradisaic beauty? No! In this regard he does not act for God, for he knows that it is written: “God is the One who declares them righteous.” (Romans 8:33)

 

 If you wish to hear more of this, let me know.

When God told Adam that he would die, which death was being referred to?

Genesis 2:16  The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Holly

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Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us.  He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness.  Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

(James 4:17) 17 Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.

Adam (and Eve) could not be ransomed but provision was made to redeem the offspring in Adam's loins who had no say in the matter. God then set about making provision to ransom these ones when he uttered the first prophecy. (Genesis 3:15) The serpent (Satan) would be crushed in the head by the offspring or  seed, Jesus, the Messianic King, who would release mankind from sin, sickness and death(Galatians 3:16).

*** w11 12/1 pp. 24-25 “A Time to Love and a Time to Hate” ***

What, though, if someone comes to know the will of God but refuses to do it? That person is gaining, not God’s love, but his disfavor. If he willfully practices the things Jehovah hates, he incurs His hatred. For example, the Bible says: “Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Psalm 11:5) For such an unrepentant one there is no forgiveness, as the apostle Paul makes clear in his letter to the Hebrews: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Why does a God of love take that position?

When a person practices a grave sin willfully, the wickedness can become so firmly entrenched that there is no separating it from the person. He may become depraved, incorrigible, irreformable. The Bible compares such a person to a leopard that cannot change its spots. (Jeremiah 13:23) Beyond repentance, the individual commits what the Bible calls “everlasting sin,” for which there is no forgiveness.—Mark 3:29.

This was true of Adam and Eve and also of Judas Iscariot. Since Adam and Eve were created perfect and since God’s command to them was explicit and understood by both, it is evident that their sinning was willful and deliberate and therefore inexcusable. God’s words to them afterward offered no invitation to repent. (Genesis 3:16-24) Judas, although imperfect, had lived in close association with God’s own Son and yet turned traitor. Jesus himself referred to him as “the son of destruction.” (John 17:12) The Bible also shows that the Devil is an inveterate sinner who can only expect destruction. (1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:12) These individuals have incurred God’s hatred.

It is reassuring to know, however, that not everyone who has sinned is beyond recovery. Jehovah is very patient and takes no delight in punishing those who have sinned on account of ignorance. (Ezekiel 33:11) He invites them to repent and be forgiven. We read: “Let the wicked man leave his way, and the harmful man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will forgive in a large way.”—Isaiah 55:7.

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Those who love Jehovah and are determined to obey his will and respect his sovereignty have no morbid fear of the second death.  The obedient angels in heaven do not fear it. There are happy and are serving Jehovah for eons on eons of time and will continue to live and serve him.  The same thing with the law of the land. Because the authorities have the sword (or the means to punish us) does not make us live in fear of them.

"(Romans 13:1-4) 13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

If we love Jehovah God and do not harbor any resentment of his right to say what is right or wrong or to do what he says, we are and will be OK. Remember the angels - they do not have immortality - just everlasting life.  They are forever in excellent company and  taking delight in their service to Him.

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Memorial tomb. A burial place in which the remains of a deceased person were placed. This term renders the Greek word mne·meiʹon, which comes from the verb “to remind,” suggesting that the person who has died is remembered.—Joh 5:28, 29.

 

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4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us.  He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness.  Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.

How could Adam have been perfect if God knew he would sin? He wasnt perfect. Nowhere does scripture call Adam perfect, only good (Gen 1:31). The Father did know because He had Jesus be the sacrifice from before the world began. 

2 Timothy 1:9 "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling,  not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"

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5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us.  He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness.  Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

(James 4:17) 17 Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.

Adam (and Eve) could not be ransomed but provision was made to redeem the offspring in Adam's loins who had no say in the matter. God then set about making provision to ransom these ones when he uttered the first prophecy. (Genesis 3:15) The serpent (Satan) would be crushed in the head by the offspring or  seed, Jesus, the Messianic King, who would release mankind from sin, sickness and death(Galatians 3:16).

 

Then "Adamic death" is actually the second death, the one in the lake of fire.  Aren't you saying that's the only death God could have been referring to in regard to Adam and Eve?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adam (and Eve) could not be ransomed but provision was made to redeem the offspring in Adam's loins who had no say in the matter. God then set about making provision to ransom these ones when he uttered the first prophecy. (Genesis 3:15) The serpent (Satan) would be crushed in the head by the offspring or  seed, Jesus, the Messianic King, who would release mankind from sin, sickness and death(Galatians 3:16).

Remember that it was AFTER Adam and Eve had sinned that they were covered with garments of animal skin and were promised a savior.  An animal's life was sacrificed to provide the skins for covering the shame of Adam and Eve's nakedness, perfectly picturing the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. 

Even the WTS says God "lovingly" provided these garments of skin "rather than leave them in their shame," that He "showed consideration for the feeling of shame that the sinners Adam and his wife now felt at being naked." There's no reason not to view their feelings of shame as repentance, and the covering God provided as being a foreshadowing of their savior, Jesus, whose shed blood would cover their sin/shame.

Consider for a moment how these two people viewed the ransom in relation to Adam and Eve:

Russell [Divine Plan of the Ages, 1886, Ch.7, p.129]: Our Lord, "the man Christ Jesus," himself unblemished, approved, and with a perfect seed or race in him, unborn, likewise untainted with sin, gave his all of human life and title as the full ransom-price for Adam and the race or seed in him when sentenced. Having thus fully purchased the lives of Adam and his race, Christ offers to adopt as his seed, his children, all of Adam's race who will accept the terms of his New Covenant and thus by faith come into his family - the family of God - and receive everlasting life.

Rutherford [w30 11/1 p.331] Thus the fact that death resulted to all Adam’s children, due to his offense and disobedience, made it possible and just for God to ransom Adam and all mankind by the atoning sacrifice of “the man Christ Jesus”.

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5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Those who love Jehovah and are determined to obey his will and respect his sovereignty have no morbid fear of the second death.  The obedient angels in heaven do not fear it. There are happy and are serving Jehovah for eons on eons of time and will continue to live and serve him.  The same thing with the law of the land. Because the authorities have the sword (or the means to punish us) does not make us live in fear of them.

"(Romans 13:1-4) 13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

If we love Jehovah God and do not harbor any resentment of his right to say what is right or wrong or to do what he says, we are and will be OK. Remember the angels - they do not have immortality - just everlasting life.  They are forever in excellent company and  taking delight in their service to Him.

It kind of sounds like you're saying 'So what if people die after the 1,000 years, there still won't be any tears or mourning'.  Is that how you're reconciling Revelation 21:4  he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.

And I wonder at your comparison of humans with angels since Jesus did not die for the salvation of angels, he died for us.  

Hebrews 2:14  Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

JEHOVAH  NEVER  KNEW  THAT  ADAM  WOULD  SIN.... !!!!

SO  HE  WAS  MAKING  THE  FAST  SCRIPTURE  1. MOSE  3..15  !!!!

NOT  MORE  TO  SAY  TO  THAT.....  ;-(

 

 

Hi QE,

Are you saying there was something the Father did not know?

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15 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

NOOOOO  -    ONLY  THE  FATHER  DID  KNOW  !!!!!!!!

And that doesn't disqualify the Father from being God?

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QE, you said " JEHOVAH  NEVER  KNEW  THAT  ADAM  WOULD  SIN.... !!!! "  

And when I asked you " Are you saying there was something the Father did not know? "  You said "YES!!!"

But now I see that you have edited that out and replaced it with " NOOOOO  -    ONLY  THE  FATHER  DID  KNOW  !!!!!!!! "

Two questions:

1. Do you disagree with the WTS on this?

2. And how were you able to edit your reply of "YES !!!" out of my post?

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Interesting comment from Russell and Rutherford.

We no longer believe Adam was ransomed.  His children were; from Abel onwards. Cain disobeyed God's direct warning and killed his brother. Doesn't look like he was ransomed either. (Prov 4:18 shows truth revealed progressively.)

(Luke 11:49-51) . . .That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation.

(Holly) "Then "Adamic death" is actually the second death, the one in the lake of fire.  Aren't you saying that's the only death God could have been referring to in regard to Adam and Eve?"

Adam did die the second death. That's why he was not ransomed. His children were taken into account as they did not make the decision to rebel against God; so the ransomed covered his children who were not willful sinners and who came to have an imperfect nature.  See the scriptures I quoted before. (Hebrews  10:26, etc)  "There is no sacrifice for sins left" for willful sinners as the ransom was never meant for willful sinners.

Agree Jehovah lovingly cared for Adam and Eve in clothing them. Even today he cares for people who do not love him. Jesus said to love your enemies and give them something to eat and drink. He also used God's example of being kind to those who don't serve him.  " (Matthew 5:45) so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous."

Adamic death is the "first death", see comment above. Will do more research on the term - it is not my term.

Got to go now.

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13 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

JEHOVAH  NEVER  KNEW  THAT  ADAM  WOULD  SIN.... !!!!

SO  HE  WAS  MAKING  THE  FAST  SCRIPTURE  1. MOSE  3..15  !!!!

NOT  MORE  TO  SAY  TO  THAT.....  ;-(

 

 

So you deny that God knows everything.  Interesting 

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28 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

Thats not true ! Strange thoughts you have....  End of discuss for me !

You're the one who said God didn't know Adam would sin. I just tried to clarify YOUR statement 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You're the one who said God didn't know Adam would sin. I just tried to clarify YOUR statement 

Here's those "strange thoughts" from the WT Reasoning book:

 

Quote

When God created Adam, did he know that Adam would sin?

Here is what God set before Adam and Eve: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” “And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) Would you encourage your children to undertake a project with a marvelous future, knowing from the start that it was doomed to failure? Would you warn them of harm, while knowing that you had planned everything so that they were sure to come to grief? Is it reasonable, then, to attribute such to God?

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: “If you, although being wicked [or, “bad as you are,” NE], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”

If God foreordained and foreknew Adam’s sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. But the Bible clearly says: “You are not a God taking delight in wickedness.” (

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) “Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (
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) “God . . . cannot lie.” (
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) “From oppression and from violence he [the One designated by God as Messianic King] will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes.” (
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) “God is love.” (
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) “He is a lover of righteousness and justice.”—
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.

 

Also see the article in the 1/1/2011 wt: 

    Hello guest!

 

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1 hour ago, Queen Esther said:

Thats not true ! Strange thoughts you have....  End of discuss for me !

Hmmmm....well then, 'Bye. :)

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8 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Interesting comment from Russell and Rutherford.

 

Glad you found their comments interesting, Melinda, since they were being published as the truth and are today being described as Bible truths Jehovah was blessing them with spiritual insight to rediscover. 

    Hello guest!

Holly

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

Here's those "strange thoughts" from the WT Reasoning book:

 

Also see the article in the 1/1/2011 wt: 

    Hello guest!

 

Isn't that putting limitations on God? 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Isn't that putting limitations on God? 

Evidently JWs believe that's something God can do, put limits on himself so that there are things that he keeps himself from knowing.  The interesting thing is that they allow for the Father to do this, limit what he knows and yet is still God; but they don't accord the Son the same thing, saying that because there's something he doesn't know that must mean he isn't God, even though the Bible certainly does say the Son is God.

 Anyway, not to get off the topic of your thread. ;)  Are you satisfied that there is no scripture that says the resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years is actually DURING the 1,000 years?

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I guess no one has a scripture that supports a resurrection during the thousand year reign. That then makes the belief that there is, just a man made belief and NOT from God or His word.

Psalms 118:8&9

Psalms 146:3

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Seems you all know where to find Watchtower resources. Good of you to quote them as well. As the brother said, let the readers be the judge of the information.

Preparing for spiritual feast this weekend at the regional/inter-island convention themed, "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" - 1-3 July.

Agape

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What is the point of being on a forum if there is no personal opinion to present? I mean to regurgitate text from any source, without personal input,  does nothing to foster a discussion.  Isn't that what a forum is about? To foster discussion? 

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Seems you all know where to find Watchtower resources. Good of you to quote them as well. As the brother said, let the readers be the judge of the information.

Preparing for spiritual feast this weekend at the regional/inter-island convention themed, "Remain Loyal to Jehovah" - 1-3 July.

Agape

Hi Melinda,

Eoin said I had misrepresented his (and your) beliefs but he offered no evidence that I did.  My sources for what I said are all on the WTS official website, jw.org.  I'll provide them all because, as you and Eoin have said, let the readers judge for themselves, and I agree that they should.  So the following is the evidence I based my statement... [Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.]...on:

 

Quote

 

Insight Vol. 1, Holiness The state or character of being holy. Holiness means “religious cleanness or purity; sacredness.” 

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[ibid p.1130] Christian Holiness. The Leader of Christians, the Son of God, when born as a human, was holy (

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), and he maintained that sanctification, or holiness, throughout his earthly life. (
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) This holiness was thorough, perfect, filling his every thought, word, and action. By maintaining his holiness even to a sacrificial death, he made it possible for others to attain holiness. Consequently, those called to be his footstep followers are called with “a holy calling.” (
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) They become Jehovah’s anointed ones, the spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ, and are called “holy ones” or “saints.” (
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    Hello guest!
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; compare KJ.) They receive holiness by faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ. (
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) Holiness, then, does not inhere in them, or belong to them, through their own merit, but it comes to them through Jesus Christ.
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.
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[ibid, Immortality, p.1189-1190] Kingdom Heirs Granted Immortality. For the anointed Christians called to reign with Christ in the heavens (

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), the promise is that they share with Christ in the likeness of his resurrection. (
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) Thus, as in the case of their Lord and Head, the anointed members of the Christian congregation who die faithful receive a resurrection to immortal spirit life, so that “this which is mortal puts on immortality.” (
    Hello guest!
) As with Jesus, immortality in their case does not mean simply everlasting life, or mere freedom from death. That they, too, are granted “the power of an indestructible life” as fellow heirs with Christ is seen from the apostle Paul’s association of incorruptibility with the immortality they attain. (
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) Over them “the second death has no authority.”—
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; See 
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.

 

 

This grant of immortality to the Kingdom heirs is all the more remarkable, in view of the fact that even God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (

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    Hello guest!
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) So the grant of “indestructible life” (
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) or “indissoluble life” to those Christians who gain the privilege of reigning with God’s Son in the heavenly Kingdom marvelously demonstrates God’s confidence in them.—See 
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 (The way to heavenly life); 
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    Hello guest!
 QFR answers the question: After the final test at the end of the Millennium, will it be possible for humans to sin and die?

 

 

 

In addition to the above, you and Eoin confirmed your belief that not all death is done away with for everyone who is on earth.

 

Hope this helps. :)

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47 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

What is the point of being on a forum if there is no personal opinion to present? I mean to regurgitate text from any source, without personal input,  does nothing to foster a discussion.  Isn't that what a forum is about? To foster discussion? 

It might be because of this: 

    Hello guest!

8. What does attaining “oneness” in the faith and accurate knowledge require?

8 First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.

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2 hours ago, HollyW said:

It might be because of this: 

    Hello guest!

8. What does attaining “oneness” in the faith and accurate knowledge require?

8 First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.

and again, doctrines of MEN instead of from God.

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6 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

and again, doctrines of MEN instead of from God.

Well, Russell's opinion on changing what was being taught does tend to cast JWs as being followers of men rather than followers of Jesus:

His writings are online at these websites:

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 and 
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 and 
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Zion's Watch Tower February 1881, p.3: If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New light" never extinguishes older "light," but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light: So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another.  

His writings are online at these websites:

    Hello guest!
 and 
    Hello guest!
 and 
    Hello guest!

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8 hours ago, HollyW said:

Hi Melinda,

Eoin said I had misrepresented his (and your) beliefs but he offered no evidence that I did.  My sources for what I said are all on the WTS official website, jw.org.  I'll provide them all because, as you and Eoin have said, let the readers judge for themselves, and I agree that they should.  So the following is the evidence I based my statement... [Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.]...on:

 

 

 

In addition to the above, you and Eoin confirmed your belief that not all death is done away with for everyone who is on earth.

 

Hope this helps. :)

Yes, it mentioned the points we made in our own words. Thanks for researching it. Hope you gained something from it as well.  It is good to do research, as it helps us to learn more and know the mind of Jehovah. Jesus said knowledge leads to everlasting life. John 17:3.

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Yes, it mentioned the points we made in our own words. Thanks for researching it. Hope you gained something from it as well.  It is good to do research, as it helps us to learn more and know the mind of Jehovah. Jesus said knowledge leads to everlasting life. John 17:3.

Thanks, Melinda, I'll take that as your agreement that I did not misrepresent JW beliefs, as Eoin mistaken said. ;)

And John 17:3 says, not that knowledge leads to everlasting life, but that KNOWING the Father AND the Son means eternal life. Knowing both the Father and the Son intimately, in our hearts, our minds, our souls, our very beings because they dwell in us by the Holy Spirit. (John 14:23)

 

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On 6/30/2016 at 21:32, Melinda Mills said:

Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again

This statement quoting @HollyW misrepresents our belief in itself. No further evidence is required for that.

2 points worth pondering are:

1. Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden to stop them from eating from the tree of life. There is no mention of them eating from this tree prior to sinning or that they even knew of it's existence. So, whilst perfect and not subject to sin and it's consequence death, they still had not been granted everlasting life by Jehovah by being permitted to eat from that tree.

So it is quite in harmony with this to conceive that humans resurrected in post Armageddon society along with the Armageddon survivors would eventually be restored to perfection PRIOR to being granted everlasting life. The final destruction of Satan and any who side with him described at Rev. 20:7-15 will enable Jehovah to make His final judgement as to who of the human family now restored to perfection will be granted everlasting life.

Adam lost the opportunity for guaranteed life everlasting by rebelling whilst perfect prior to receiving that guarantee. Obedient, perfected and sin-cleansed, mankind on earth will receive that guarantee, once having demonstrated their unbreakable loyalty to Jehovah as the rightful Sovereign Lord of the Universe and all that this entails. Jehovah will have full confidence to those humans declaring them righteous for life. He certainly will not be granting everlasting life to any that He feels will sin again!

2. Immortality (and it's closely associated terms, incorruptible and indestructible) has to do with the quality of life enjoyed by Jehovah himself and certain others of His creation, namely Jesus and his 144000 associate king-priests. Their life also has the quality of being everlasting. The life enjoyed by other spirit creatures whilst potentially everlasting, is not immortal (otherwise how could Satan and his spirit supporters be destroyed?)

Human life by its very nature can never be immortal (as discussed in detail previously, see 1Cor.15:50). But it can be everlasting. And will have to be in order to fulfil the promise of Ps.37:29. And the right to that everlasting life (never enjoyed by the sinner Adam) will be enjoyed by the obedient, perfect human family once the thousand years of Christ's rule has ended. Rev.20:5.

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Hi Holly, I endorse the statements of Eion above.  I don't have time now to go into detail. I am dressing now to attend the convention.

 

Eion, the following statement is Holly's and not mine. "Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again ".

What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.  Thanks for answering.

 

Kind regards and Agape

 

 

Melinda

 

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8 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.  

Melinda, these things we research are from your organization, and not from outside sources. You are correct in this, however we bring these things up so that you and others can research them too. If there is another understanding, other than what we observe, by all means provide the information or link to clarify. You see, we are taking what the wt says and comparing it to scripture if it fits great but if not our question is why? 

I took the liberty to include Holly in my comment, and if I misrepresent her I expect her to correct me.

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On 7/2/2016 at 2:40 AM, Melinda Mills said:

Hi Holly, I endorse the statements of Eion above.  I don't have time now to go into detail. I am dressing now to attend the convention.

 

Eion, the following statement is Holly's and not mine. "Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again ".

What I was glad to see is that Holly and Shiwii have the ability to research the online research to get opinions from the Watchtower but I don't think they are getting the correct understanding still from what they are quoting.  Thanks for answering.

 

Kind regards and Agape

 

 

Melinda

 

Neither you nor Eoin have posted anything that shows my statement misrepresents your beliefs at all.  In fact, your posts have confirmed that my statement is true.  I'm heartened that you are showing signs of reflecting on this important teaching. :)

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19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Melinda, these things we research are from your organization, and not from outside sources. You are correct in this, however we bring these things up so that you and others can research them too. If there is another understanding, other than what we observe, by all means provide the information or link to clarify. You see, we are taking what the wt says and comparing it to scripture if it fits great but if not our question is why? 

I took the liberty to include Holly in my comment, and if I misrepresent her I expect her to correct me.

Exactly right, Shiwii. :)

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Finally, I've had time to read through this thread. Some observations:

I see that no scriptural support has yet been given for the idea that there will be a resurrection during the 1000 years. Where does the idea come from, then? 

It appears to be based on assumptions, i.e.,

1. that 'Judgment Day' isn't a specific point in time but a long period lasting 1000 years;

2. that there are two groups of Christian believers;

3. that the 'deeds' people will be judged on are those done during the 1000 years and not those done before they died ...

... which comes from the interpretation of Rom. 6:7 that once a person dies, they have been 'acquitted' from their sin ...

... in which case, the resurrected start with a clean slate but are still raised in imperfect bodies that can sin again, and it's really during the 1000 years that they are able to avail themselves of the merit of Christ's sacrifice (paradoxically by working toward perfection) ...

... which means that Christ's sacrifice doesn't atone for their sins committed before death in this present age, as their own deaths paid for their sins ...

... which goes against the gospel message (Rom. 3:21-26).

If Jesus' death does atone for sins committed before a believer's death, then why isn't that individual 'declared righteous for life' like the 'anointed' are? 

And yet, even with regard to the 'anointed' who are regarded as being 'declared righteous for life,' there is judgment based on what they did 'while in the body':

2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

This judgment for the 'anointed' doesn't last for 1000 years, does it? And they are judged according to what they did before they died and were raised as spirit beings, right?

Why the different standards between two groups?

This raises another conundrum because, if Adam died, he was acquitted of his sin too. So why do JWs insist that in his case, his 'Adamic death' doesn't acquit him of his sin? Where is the scriptural support for the idea that he has fast-tracked, without passing 'Go' and collecting $200, straight to the 'second death'?

Melinda mentioned 'willful sin.' Isn't much of our 'sin' 'willful' in some way or another? What about David? Was his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of her husband involuntary, accidental? Manasseh's offenses against God with his child sacrifices and false worship - were those lesser sins than Adam accepting his wife's offer of forbidden fruit to eat? 

Eoin talked about there being a difference between 'immortality' and 'everlasting life,' and that humans cannot be immortal due to their nature. But then, wasn't it argued that angels are not immortal either (one of Melinda's posts)? So what does a being's human nature have to do with it?

And does 'immortality' mean 'cannot die' or simply 'does not die' because the person has been granted a spirit-generated body - whatever the nature? If an immortal person 'cannot die,' doesn't this limit God's power or make the immortal person as indestructible as the Creator? On the other hand, if immortality means one doesn't die, and that life continues indefinitely, forever, or everlastingly, no matter what body the rewarded believer is given, it will always be dependent on God's life-giving spirit, would it not?

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