Is the brochure "Return to Jehovah" missing something?

[Witness]

12 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, my intentions are to weigh in wherever possible to have people see for themselves those fallacies. The question here is your disingenuous claims about a religion you advocate against when you argue none for others, thus suggesting your bias and exposing your hypocrisy.

Allen, Why should any of us argue for any "religion", other than for God and Christ?  Col 2:20-23

 

[Shiwiii]

On 9/23/2016 at 4:02 PM, Anna said:

The preaching work is a kind privilege He gives to faithful ones so they can demonstrate their love, obedience and loyalty to him. Never mind the fact that it was actually a command from Jesus, to go and make disciples. (Matthew 28:18-20)

What on earth do you mean "nevermind" ? As if that is some side note. If Jesus commands it, then it is God's will. Not some extra bonus that God gives us to do, it is commanded. 

 

On 9/23/2016 at 4:02 PM, Anna said:

"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

You do know that this is not what is written in the Bible, right? 

 

[Shiwiii]

On 9/23/2016 at 4:09 PM, AllenSmith said:

try learning the history, but the true history,

I gave you your history and you don't want it. It come from their own publications! how can you continue to deny what they themselves wrote? 

[Shiwiii]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:06 PM, Anna said:

What the Praeceptor said is correct. What I said was correct.

 

 

On 9/22/2016 at 2:53 PM, Shiwiii said:

Return to whom?

 

On 9/22/2016 at 10:55 PM, ThePraeceptor said:

To the congregation!

 

On 9/23/2016 at 1:13 PM, Anna said:

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ.

These two statements by the both of you are not synonymous, and they were asked with the same question.

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

 

Wrong! you gave proof of your interpretation of what you think they were attempting to convey. That's why I stated learn the true history. That would entail you reading all the publications in full.

Allen, how can one misinterpret those statements? They are pretty plain. It seems that you do know, but choose to bury those thoughts because the society tells you to. If I have misinterpreted those statements, please explain them to me one by one. I'll list them again for your convenience:

"To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

"These overseers faithfully seek to apply instructions received from JehovahGod and Jesus Christ by means of the faithful and discreet slave and its Governing Body." Watchtower 1990 Mar 15 p.20

 

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" - Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212

Who is the one who brings salvation? Not some organization!!!!! JESUS is the answer!

 

The Watchtower 1975 Sep 1 p.531 asks "Where could we turn if we would leave God's organization today? There is nowhere else! 

This is a play on Simon Peter's words in John 6:68 "  Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Not an organization, but rather Jesus! 

 

"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sep 15 p.22

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1

"And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a "great war cry."" Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.21

 

[Shiwiii]

Just now, AllenSmith said:

Once again, I not disputing the subject matter, I disputing your interpretation of the subject matter.

by all means, please correct my thinking on this one statement made by the WT :

 

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" - Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212

 

I believe it means that they have claimed the title of God, as He is the only one who can save. 

[Shiwiii]

36 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

I don’t have the bond volume to check [p.212] if that’s where you got the information and not some apostasy site that still uses bond volumes for references.

What difference does bound vs CDROM have to do with apostasy? Is there a new teaching out now, that if you have bound volumes you are now an apostate? Do tell....

37 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

^{It’s pretty clear the society is giving out an invitation to all those that wish to be saved by the ransom sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ, the originator of that very same invitation. No different than the apostle's message and all those that Christ commissioned to spread the word of salvation.}

very different, the apostles did not draw people to themselves, like this statement we're talking about has, but instead pointed to Jesus! So there is a big difference between the WT and the apostles. 

[Shiwiii]

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

So, in your mind, the apostles were not referring to be united in Christ as is the message of the WTS. 

No, in my mind the apostles were pointing people to Christ and NOT an organization. The WTS points people to themselves, to come and join their org under the guise of aligning with Christ. 

50 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

JW’s just go further by passing the gospel door to door.

What exactly is your gospel?

50 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

that mistaken quote comes from apostasy websites

are you telling me it is not written like that in your publications? If you look at your own quote it states it exactly as I quoted it. That one must come to Jehovah's organization for salvation. 

 

53 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

The WTS draws attention to the inspired word of God

Their rewritten word of God, not the inspired one. The inspired one does not contain "Jehovah" "YHWH" in the NT. 

 

54 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

To Serve Jehovah, and his organization under Christ rule

Can you provide scripture that states one must serve "his organization" please? 

[Witness]

On 9/22/2016 at 0:01 PM, Arauna said:

And here I am talking personality again... do you know why?  Because the Christian personality is our identifying mark for survival when Armageddon arrives. This personality is what we all should be working on at present - to comply willingly and fully to Jehovah's standards and cooperate with his people.  If we sow discord, show willfulness, egotism, self-righteousness or any other qualities that can bring divisions (or separates us from his congregation) - we are out of sync with what Jehovah expects from us. We may be corrected by the congregation (Jehovah) because these are qualities that need to be worked on.. Those who separate themselves are searching for their own interest.

The wicked willfully separate themselves from Jehovah and his organization. If one reads the scriptures daily one will find that most of the Greek scriptures (writings of  Paul, James etc.) is admonishment to develop the qualities Jehovah expects from us.

 

 

Hello Arauna,

You are saying that everyone who leaves the organization is wicked, even if there is no sin committed; still, if one sins their judgment of being found “wicked” is up to Christ. Rom 14:10   What if one leaves simply because they desire to develop the pure qualities that God and Christ expect?  Failed prophesy, slaving for earthly treasures, and slaving for men is not what Jesus or the apostles taught.

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.  Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.  “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.”  Mark 9:38-42

Rom 12:2 tells us “not to conform to the pattern of this world”.  The organization has admitted it is a hierarchy of power, a pattern we see clearly in Satan’s world.  This scripture also says we are to be transformed by the “renewing of our mind”.  Again, Paul speaks of this in Eph 4:20-25

“That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;  to be made new in the attitude of your minds;  and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.”  Eph 4:20-25

If we renew our mind in Christ, we are breaking away from the earthly pattern of worship - "not on this mountain" or any other.  John 4:21-24  

In order to develop qualities pleasing to God, we give and serve Him with exclusive devotion – he is not an organization aligned in the same manner as all else in the world. 

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything (an “earthly Zion”) in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”  Exod 20:4,5

And He has made no exception to accommodate an organization.  You said, and which is very true, “Because the Christian personality is our identifying mark for survival when Armageddon arrives.”

This is the identifying mark given you at baptism:

“Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?”

Over 50 years ago, the Watchtower shed a little light on the truth:

"A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit." Watchtower 1955 Jul 1 p.411

Wt 1966 10/1 pp 603-4 "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." 

Shouldn’t we ask, why the change of teaching? Deut 11:18 Shouldn’t we also ask, who really are the potential wicked ones, those who desire to dedicate their lives exclusively to God and Christ, or those who serve an organization, teaching inconsistent, changing doctrine?  Luke 12:1

 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’  Matt 22:36,37

No man has been given authority to judge one as “wicked” who desires to follow this teaching and the standards God has set in place.  Many anointed ones and many sheep have left the organization to serve Christ and the Father exclusively, yet the organization readily marks them as “wicked”.  Rev 13:16-18

Mark of the Beast 

 

 

 

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Ergo…your personal opinion.

 

 

Identifying where the word “lord” can be misconstrued, then, yes it’s appropriate to make that distention between Christ and Jehovah. But search history, it has been exhausted for the Tetragrammaton , that more and more scholars are claiming to the validity of it, and could be viewed as either Yahweh or Jehovah depending on how one wants to interpret YHWH or YHVH. But it’s certainly NOT Jesus.

 

My personal opinion is based on the fact that there is no ancient manuscript of the NT that contains the name Jehovah or YHWH. This is admitted by your organization, but you call it my opinion....

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

When the apostles spread the “gospel” of Christ in many countries and planted “new” churches, am I to understand that these churches are false because you don’t view them as organized and unified

 

 

Boy, you have a lot of work cut out for you. You need to sway 1.3 billion Christians they’ve been wrong for over two thousand years. Start with the Vatican and work your way down.

 

 

They, will probably call you crazy? But give it a shot, Good luck!

 

So you cannot give your account of the gospel, instead you create a new topic of discussion.....nope, not going to follow you there. If you cannot have a discussion, only diversion, then I guess we are done here. 

[Arauna]

Just want to mention that jews read the Hebrew scriptures and know the name JHWH very well.  Due to ancient traditions they do not read the name loudly but substitute it with lord.   A jew once told me that we are stealing the name of his God.  They do not believe that the  messiah  has come... Messiah in hebrew and arabic means "anointed one" . Anointed by whom?  By JHWH  as the chief agent and perfector if our faith Hebr 12.