Witness' view of the GB

[Shiwiii]

49 minutes ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

There's no further need to discuss what you and "witness" stand for. Scripture is quite clear and sufficient for the brethren to understand. But, thanks for the invitation!

It is truly sad when one cannot express their belief, but rather can only try and attach negativity to anyone who opposes a view that has been given to them. You seem to disagree, but can't quite get the thought out as to why. My only conclusion, since you cannot elaborate, is that you don't know why other than "because we (the gb) said so" 

[Witness]

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Its ok, Everything I proposed is in my first post in this thread. 

I want to try again, with more clarity. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

All those watching this dialog appreciate that effort ....

[Witness]

12 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

All those watching this dialog appreciate that effort ....

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  

[Srecko Sostar]

"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from god must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. New light never extinguishes older light, but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light. So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another." (Watchtower Feb. 1, 1881, Reprints p. 188)

This quote is standpoint of former GB, in 1881. Today GB have different view on same issue. Some future GB (if would be in existence at all) will do the same as this days GB members.  Will change doctrines and proclaim outdated learnings as "old light".   In other words, they will give up from their predecessors, former GB members  Which of these time-varying GB groups has more "spirit" that they be able to claim how "this WTJWorg is god's spirit guided organization"? haha, ...and in what time period what GB group has more "spirit" in governing the Corp-org?  

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

That would obviously, depend on what you are willing to accept, by “menÂ’s” commentary here.

For me, all is human, men's commentary here. Some looks like your yin yang circle in black and white, some have colors .... and we all need to test all those ideas, logic, reason. We all do that with more or less success.

"... the Pharisees and the teachers of the law..." (aka GB scholars) can be furious on some JW members liberty to put in questions their doctrines and instructions BUT that is normal because Bible also said so - "test the spirit...." 1.John 4:1-5. If some dare to test the spirit of GB he/she is not doing nothing that would be against "bible principles"   

[Srecko Sostar]

13 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

...misunderstand the concept. Especially when one brings division into the church ...

It is very nice that you put two translations of same verse, perhaps it will be good to use more of it. Because NWT have some err. 
it is not the same when NWT say - "obey your leaders" but Jesus said one is your leader, (so this is very big err in NWT), and if we hear "have confidence" NIV, but in all that one thing is more important - elders have to earn that trust from the people.

BUT my prime reason to respond on your comment above was this: It is not matter if  "one brings division into the church", in fact it is good to put on test and fire human doctrines, AND JESUS SUPPORT THAT TOO. YOU ASK HOW? READ THE BIBLE PLEASE. JESUS SAID: 

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. – Jesus (Matthew 10:34-38)

According to this i am afraid that you are not familiar with "bible  principles, prophesies, teachings and many more". :))))

 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

THE GENESIS 15  YOU CITED,  ABRAHAM  WAS  NOT  REFERRING  TO HAGAR'S  SON,   WHO HADN'T BEEN BORN,   BUT  SERVANT  ELIEZAR,  AS THE  ONE  WHO  WOULD  BE  HIS  HEIR,  HE THOUGHT.

you are right, Abraham was referring to the only one born in his household. That was Eliezar, but God told Abraham that his heir would be from his own body (verse 4). So it was Sarah who plotted to have offspring through Hagar to help fulfill what God had promised. This child  would be from Abraham's own body, but God had a different plan. It was to be through Sarah (the barren woman) and not through Hagar (the bondwoman), as Galatians 4 ties directly with the Genesis account. 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

Eliezar- his name for instance- might have some significance that I'd love to know.

I believe that his name means "God his help" or "his help is God"

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

And we probably agree that the bond, as in "bondwoman", was the Law Covenant they agreed to keep, "We and our children", and if obedient were promised to be made into "a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation".

yes, I agree. It is a reference to Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai and the covenant established

 

So with that being said, we are left with the other covenant mentioned in Galatians 4. Of that group :

25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
    break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
    than those of the one who has a husband.”

This 2nd covenant group will outnumber those of the 1st covenant and will be of the Jerusalem above, which comes down from Heaven and resides upon the Earth (Revelation 21:10)

Do you agree with this? 

[Shiwiii]

12 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

It's been nice getting along like this.

But now I hope you will not be too angry at a few differences.

yes it has. I cannot be angry at other's opinions, everyone is different. The part where I get what you call "angry" is when the conversations turn into personal attacks with no basis other than a difference of view. 

13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

And another thing is that I have to leave pretty soon so am just pretty much pasting my answer from you -know-where. 

But I do think ithis makes sense.

I will read this, but I cannot accept that it is YOUR opinion. It is the opinion of the wt, while you may agree it still is not put forth in your words and vision. 

 

13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

- Sarah pictures God’s heavenly “wife,” his organization of spirit beings. That heavenly organization is aptly described as Jehovah’s wife, for she is intimately associated with Jehovah, is subservient to his headship, and is fully cooperative in fulfilling his purposes. She is also called “Jerusalem above.”

(Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 

 

-The same “woman” is mentioned at Genesis 3:15, And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”and she is depicted in vision at-

(Revelation 12:1-6)...

(Revelation 12:13-17) ...

I omitted the actual parts of scripture to keep the thread from becoming too long. We can read the fullness above in previous posts. 

 

I'm not quite sure were it is derived that Sarah is God's wife. I'd like if you could expand on that if you can. 

If we take the scripture you gave (and I did too) Galatians 4:26, it says that she represents "Jerusalem from above" and compare that with Revelation 21. We see that Sarah/Jerusalem from above is the Bride of Christ/wife of the Lamb. 

Revelation 21:

² And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 

⁹ Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

 

I feel this clearly tells us that Sarah represents those who make up the Bride of Christ. These that are of Sarah/Jerusalem from above will outnumber those of the first covenant (Israel). 

 

13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

- Isaac typifies the spiritual Seed of God’s woman. Primarily, this is Jesus Christ. However, the seed also came to include Christ’s anointed brothers, who are adopted as spiritual sons and become joint heirs with Christ.

I agree to a point. We can go deeper later. The reason why I say this is because the way I read this and the way you read this is totally different even though the words are the same. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I think you see this statement as having a limitation to who are joint heirs. I just don't see it that way, but we can discuss that later once we wrap our minds around "Jerusalem from above".

 

13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

- Ishmael, Hagar’s son, pictures the first-century Jews, the sons of Jerusalem still enslaved to the Mosaic Law. As Ishmael persecuted Isaac, so those Jews persecuted the Christians, who were anointed sons of the figurative Sarah, the “Jerusalem above.” And just as Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away, Jehovah ultimately cast off Jerusalem and her rebellious sons.

 I agree on the first century Jews being represented by Ishmael and the covenant. I do not agree that God has cast Israel aside and replaced the Jews. Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 speak of those who slander the Jews or claim to be Jews and are not. This contrast alone should prove that God still has a plan for the Jews. If God condemns those who claim to be Jews but are not, then there has to be some value to being a Jew at that point in time (future as revelation is future). 

 

13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

So probably the main differences, "Sarah/Jerusalem above is our mother"  .God's loyal angels were 'barren' for a long time, [just like Sarah] until Jesus was baptized in 29 CE and anointed by spirit as the son of God, but since then have  become mother to  nearly 144,000, adopted as God's sons, [and daughters]  and "bought from the earth" as the bride of Christ.   Then they , presumably, and Jesus will "see" offspring as outlined in Isa 53.

 

Angels do not reproduce and thus the term "barren" wouldn't really apply.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

we see here that angels are not given in marriage, and marriage is for the populating of the Earth as God said in Genesis. This continues to explain why the rest of your statement needs more clarification, but we will get to that later. 

13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

 

And forJws, the heavenly Jerusalem coming down in Rev 21 is after a thousand years of Kingdom rule over the earth ,with Satan abyssed and unable to mislead, and  people resurrected,  able to learn the truth in peace ,returning to perfection during the same thousand or so years it took Adam and Eve to accumulate enough 'sin'/imperfection so that they died.  The "great crowd" in Rev 7, that have come out of the great tribulation and are" before God's throne' are actually on earth , which is "God's footstool", after all.  Compare Rev 1:4 and Rev 5:6 -and every other mention of "before the throne" in Revelation and I think you will see that it means "on earth", but a joyous earth that they will help to make into a paradise, which was God's original purpose for the earth.

I don't think we are at this point yet, but I am looking forward to this when we get there. 

 

Again, we must first understand each others opinion on "Jerusalem from above" before we can dive in to the other parts. That doesn't mean we have to agree, but understand; supported by scripture.  Otherwise we are playing a game of ping pong, bouncing from this topic to that topic. 

[Witness]

Hi @Shiwiii,

I haven’t read your latest comments, but as I said I wanted to try again to comment on your initial thoughts.

Your words:  “So if one has the spirit of Jesus within them, then they are heirs/sons/daughters/children of God. Now I would make the assumption here that you would agree, since you also state you are anointed. Is this anointing of the Holy Spirit or of the Spirit of the Son (Jesus)? Is it the same? if not, why not”

Here is what I wrote in my first response:

There is only one spirit that gives life from God and Christ (John 6:63); only one spirit that brings us to truth, (1 Cor 2:12) but the way we receive Holy spirit can differ, but it always reaches the heart.   In the anointed ones, the Holy Spirit from God dwells within them.  1 Cor 6:19; John 14:17; Matt 10:20; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 3:16

“Does these scriptures have a limited number of participants who can belong to Christ Jesus? I don't see any. So those who have the Spirit of Jesus within them are called heirs according to Galatians 4.”

The priesthood has limited number that God will determine, yet, why would he limit those children that are “born” when the New Covenant is fulfilled?

Is this the two class system? Is this the heavenly vs the earthly destination? Lets keep looking.

I don’t look at it as a “two class system”.  Jesus fulfilled both promise covenants with the nation of Israel and Abraham. The law covenant with the nation of Israel is symbolized by Hagar, “in slavery with her children” and “born in the manner of flesh”, descendants of Abraham.

 When Jesus died, the New Covenant was established.  It became a symbolic promise of life with Jesus being the first recipient. 1 Cor 15:20,23  Spiritual “Israel” (“Sarah of God”), spiritual “Jerusalem”  - the anointed ones, are now under a covenant/promise with God , the New Covenant. Rom 2:29; 1Pet 3:6; Gal 3:29; 6:15,16; Heb 11:10,13,16; Rev 21:2 This covenant is under the “free woman”, (free from the written law), and through the symbolic “Isaac” – Christ.  Rom 1:6; 8:2; 8:17; 11:18; 12:23;  1 Cor 15:45; Gal 3:14

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
    break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
    than those of the one who has a husband.”

This occurs when the “woman”/ “New Covenant” is fulfilled by the full number of faithful priests/Temple/”New Jerusalem”/Bride (they are all the same), when they are sealed. We know the purpose of this promise is to bring forth seed, which is the “144,000”/Bride, completing the heavenly Temple. Zech 4:7 Christ began the Temple as the cornerstone, with the apostles and prophets comprising the foundation.  Each anointed one is a “living stone”; if faithful and obedient, they are added/sealed into the Temple forever.   That is the first step toward the fulfillment of the next “promise”, God’s Kingdom and the rest of Abraham’s offspring.  Can you see how the union of the Bride (Sarah) with Christ brings forth more children – without the pain and suffering that the 144,000 had to endure in order to be sanctified?  Rev 12:2

 

 

[Shiwiii]

12 hours ago, Witness said:

Here is what I wrote in my first response:

There is only one spirit that gives life from God and Christ (John 6:63); only one spirit that brings us to truth, (1 Cor 2:12) but the way we receive Holy spirit can differ, but it always reaches the heart.   In the anointed ones, the Holy Spirit from God dwells within them.  1 Cor 6:19; John 14:17; Matt 10:20; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 3:16

I agree with all you said here, with one small exception. You mentioned "only one spirit", while I agree, I wonder what you believe about the Spirit of Jesus found in Romans 8:9&10, as I do not think we are on the same page about this.  Is this Spirit of Jesus the same spirit you believe is in the other scriptures you quoted? Here in Romans 8, scripture clearly states that if you do not have the Spirit of Jesus within you, you do not belong to Him (Jesus). 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

The priesthood has limited number that God will determine, yet, why would he limit those children that are “born” when the New Covenant is fulfilled?

Where in scripture do we see any limitation? please provide scriptural support.

12 hours ago, Witness said:

When Jesus died, the New Covenant was established.  It became a symbolic promise of life with Jesus being the first recipient. 1 Cor 15:20,23  Spiritual “Israel” (“Sarah of God”), spiritual “Jerusalem”  - the anointed ones, are now under a covenant/promise with God , the New Covenant. Rom 2:29; 1Pet 3:6; Gal 3:29; 6:15,16; Heb 11:10,13,16; Rev 21:2 This covenant is under the “free woman”, (free from the written law), and through the symbolic “Isaac” – Christ.  Rom 1:6; 8:2; 8:17; 11:18; 12:23;  1 Cor 15:45; Gal 3:14

Where is there a mention of a Spiritual Israel in the Bible? A replacement if you will. I see no spiritual Jerusalem, only earthly and heavenly. I agree that the new covenant is under the free woman and that it IS separate from the first covenant, but I see nothing that excludes those of the first covenant from salvation. 

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

This occurs when the “woman”/ “New Covenant” is fulfilled by the full number of faithful priests/Temple/”New Jerusalem”/Bride (they are all the same), when they are sealed. We know the purpose of this promise is to bring forth seed, which is the “144,000”/Bride, completing the heavenly Temple. Zech 4:7 Christ began the Temple as the cornerstone, with the apostles and prophets comprising the foundation.  Each anointed one is a “living stone”; if faithful and obedient, they are added/sealed into the Temple forever.   That is the first step toward the fulfillment of the next “promise”, God’s Kingdom and the rest of Abraham’s offspring.  Can you see how the union of the Bride (Sarah) with Christ brings forth more children – without the pain and suffering that the 144,000 had to endure in order to be sanctified?  Rev 12:2

Temple/New Jerusalem/ Bride, yes I agree they are all the same and Galatians tell us that those in this group will outnumber those of the first group. Galatians 4:27 which is a quote from Isaiah 54 says they will outnumber, so there cannot be a limitation to only 144,000 because there are far more than that in the first group. You see, this is where we must understand each other and support our belief with scripture before we can dig deeper.

There is a bias within some interpretations that some have just accepted without question, and if we do not use scripture to straighten these things out, we will never get past what we have been told. Like the Bereans, we must examine what we are told against scripture to see if what we are being told is true.