Ectopic pregnancy

[Jack Ryan]

Ectopic pregnancies, when detected, are usually treated by surgically removing them. I always understood that this procedure was ok for Jehovah's Witnesses. But the subject came up during pioneer school. The circuit overseer started explaining that abortions are NEVER acceptable. A human is a human as soon as conception happens. But then he asks if there is ever a reason to break this rule. So I decided to raise my hand and mention the Reasoning book under Abortion where is says it's up to the individuals involved to make a choice if it's during childbirth. I also mentioned ectopic pregnancies. 

Well, this didn't go over so well with him. Oooh noooo! He said the information I had was incorrect and the it's NEVER acceptable even if it means death for the mother and that such things don't happen anymore with all the medical advancements. 

I was very surprised. Especially since ectopic pregnacies have risen. If a JW woman refuses the procedure to have it removed she risks major blood loss and loss of life. I was and still am surprised by his response. I spoke to other elders about it and they either had no idea what an ectopic pregnancy was or if they did they told me it's one of those things where it's acceptable.

I didn't find ANYTHING talking about ectopic pregnancies in the Watchtower articles. 

Has anyone here had an ectopic pregnancy? What did the elders say?

[The Librarian]

This is from the March 15, 1975 issue of The Watchtower:

"Similarly, in some cases a fertilized ovum implants and begins to grow in the fallopian tube instead of the uterus. Such a tubal ectopic pregnancy cannot develop fully in this small tube; in time it will terminate with the rupture of the tube and the death of the embryo. If this condition is detected in advance, doctors usually treat it by removing the affected fallopian tube before it ruptures. A Christian woman with a tubal pregnancy can decide whether to accept this operation. Normally she undoubtedly would be willing to face any risks of pregnancy so that her child could live. But with a tubal pregnancy she faces a grave risk while there is no possibility that the embryo can continue to live and a child be born."

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Any "Theology", or "theology" has to make common sense, and have the long term best interests of Civilization as it's goal ... which is what Jehovah has planned for mankind.

If you live in a fantasy world of playful animals romping across and open field, and cartoon characters giving morality lessons, in the fantasy world you will stay.

In the REAL world everything that lives has the natural right of self defense .... if they choose to exercise it ... and can competently manage it ... and have the added value sometimes of pure, dumb luck.

Mothers DO NOT have the right to abort their children ..... UNLESS ... their children are threatening to kill them, such as a ectopic pregnancies in the case of  ANY OTHER REAL THREATS TO THE MOTHER'S SAFETY OR LIFE.

You have the NATURAL RIGHT to defend your life and welfare, by killing those that if you don't stop them .... WILL KILL YOU.

If you choose to exercise that right ...you are allowed to kill your own children ... in self defense.

It is no more theologically complicated than that.

You know a scriptural interpretation is correct ... when it makes good common sense in the real world.

If the explanation sounds contrived ... it is.

[Guest Nicole]

9 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Well, this didn't go over so well with him. Oooh noooo! He said the information I had was incorrect and the it's NEVER acceptable even if it means death for the mother and that such things don't happen anymore with all the medical advancements. 

Those things may happen specially in  those countries with poor medical assistance 

[JW Insider]

KM School (for elders) up until 1974/5 included training for elders on medical issues (blood/pregnancy/transplants/psychology) especially when it was taught by Brother Schroeder in Pittsburgh. But Bert Schroeder also had some crazy ideas about medical/health issues which have since been dropped from the Watchtower, such as claiming that a heart transplant (or blood) from a criminal could make you a criminal, that the heart is the physical seat of emotion, etc. (Some were just personal ideas that never would have been put in the Watchtower anyway, such as believing that people who changed from left-handed to right-handed when they were younger would become hypoglycemic in later years.)

Most medical issues have been dropped from elder training, and the expression that Jack Ryan quoted is considered all-encompassing:

On 6/23/2018 at 2:24 PM, Jack Ryan said:

such things don't happen anymore with all the medical advancements

There are groups of elders in the HLC who are trained to know that this isn't true, such as with blood issues, so that would not be embarrassed if they were to make such a claim in front of hospital professionals. But most elders, and therefore most Witnesses who learn from them, have a feeling, for example, that there are never occasions when people really need to die from lack of a blood transfusion or from allowing a life-threatening pregnancy to continue. These Witnesses, including non-HLC elders, will believe it is the fault of the medical professionals if things go wrong. This is why there have been more malpractice suits brought by JWs against doctors and hospitals that are actually discouraged by the WTS and those with more medical training.

[TrueTomHarley]

18 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Most medical issues have been dropped from elder training

On 6/23/2018 at 2:24 PM, Jack Ryan said:

Back in the days that I call when "each one did what was right in his own eyes," (late 70s or early 80s) there was an one-day special assembly in Niagara Falls, NY. Apparantly, local brothers, if they had the wherewithall, could put together whatever program they liked if they could assemble the speakers.

It is at that gathering that Victor Blackwell spoke and I picked up afterwards his excellent book "O'ar the Ramparts They Watched," which I frequently quote in my own writing.

David McClure also spoke, a circuit overseer, the son of Lucy McClure., who figured in the reversal of Gobitis. He told the story as it would have been seen through a child's eyes. He spoke of regularly getting beaten up walking to and from school. As only Dave McClure could do, he made getting beaten up sound almost like fun.

The third speaker was a brother who essentially spoke about health, the sort of thing that would never be done today. "If you feel good, stay away from them," he said about doctors. He also spoke a lot about nutrution. Dave McClure was sitting not too far from me. Following that 'health talk' he said loudly: "Well, I guess I'm going to go down and get myself a hot dog!"