Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[Space Merchant]

50 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Don't feel sorry for me Judith. Feel sorry for those that are too frightened to question the GB and the Elders and the whole JW 'set of man made rules'.

As is with young Jesus to the religious leaders in the temple. That being said, Restorationist do not make man made rules, their rules are based on either Scripture and or anything pertaining to modesty, cleanness, an example would be I know Jehovah's Witnesses, in the US for example, cannot and will not have beards due to concerns with neatness and cleanness so that the message they bring forth does not detract from the dignity or the effectiveness of the message they bear the verse in question of which stems this 2 Corinthians 6:3, 4 among a few. Ironically enough people do take issue with beards, especially some non-Americans and or those outside of the US who now live there, in other cases beards are banned in some areas i.e. Nigeria.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I am not anti JW Org, though of course it looks that way. I am anti GB and very disappointed with Elders that just act as puppets because they don't want to lose their positions. 

You make it seem that you are, especially when it comes to Strong's. But like I said, their stewards or elders are not puppets, nor are their leaders, for if we have to blame someone, it would be God if that is the case due to orderly worship, and you have his Son, who is the head of the church.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As with Hitler who could not have done the 'damage' that he did on his own, so it is with the GB, they could not have ruined so many people's lives on their own. Hence the Elders are to blame as well. 

Regarding Hitler, there has been some major things at play that is not spoken of by most, and it took people of power and influence who through their lots into the same pot, with Hitler being another chess piece on the board.

If they are ruining lives, they would not be increasing in adherents and they would too be affected by the decline of Christendom, when minorities are unaffected.

It should be obvious to you in the UK, granted that Islamic faith is nearly surpassing mainstream Christianity, while minorities are untouched by the decline, granted the decline is far more bigger in the UK and EU compared to US and Asia, whereas the US consider is also regarding White Christians.

All this, spoken of 2015, and here we are now.

That being said, I do not see how their stewards are to be blamed for Christian Primitivty regarding the Bible, this also goes for lone Restorationist who are not part of any group as well.

[Space Merchant]

43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM I was quoting Billy  when he said " Can we say, Christian sects that support the killing of others are reputable men?" 

I presume he means such as Catholics killing Catholics on opposite sides in World War 2. and things like that. 

You also realize that those who claim to be Christians were also involved too, right? This also goes for those who want to destroy Christianity from within, such ones known as Luciferians. Christians, Catholics are on both sides, now to the infantry, Luciferians however are merely spectators of their own design.

43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for me when you say  " you speak as though it is only happening to a sole religious faith alone when all religious faiths are effected, "

I have told you many times, my only interest is in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation, no other religion interests me. 

The thing here is, I am speaking of all institutions as well as the world, even JWs - as I have told you perhaps 10 times or more.

For if child abuse was of great concern to you, you would be focused on anywhere and everywhere child abuse is done, therefore unlike you my interest is everywhere, even that of human sex trafficking granted those who claim to "help the people" were doing the opposite, as with the grooming gangs in UK and other things.

43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Billy made a good point that JW's do not go to war, as many other religions do. So in that way the JW's stand out as different because they take a firm stand for God by not going to war.

They are not the only ones who do not go to or favor for war.

43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM you said concerning Child Abuse , " it does not derail them, nor will it derail others."   Nor has it derailed me.  I'm just taking time looking for true direction. 

You are not getting what I said, my actually words were:

I actually speak to and help those who are abused among many other things, pretty much a perk when you are helping and supporting the youth in institutions and clubs dedicated to helping build up the young to have better lives, so I would not be obvious to such a matter, granted I am aware that child abuse is all over the place in all institutions, you speak as though it is only happening to a sole religious faith alone when all religious faiths are effected, even to Unitarians this happens also, it does not derail them, nor will it derail others.

When I mention derailment it is in regards to those who do not lose their faith because of the actions of or the sins of others, this also includes those who seek to abuse children. Therefore, people will always continue their faith even if such a thing is done because they know God will make right of things when the time comes. It's is no different with those who are non-religious either.

Man cannot stop wars, they cannot stop famine, they cannot stop sickness, they cannot stop corruption lovers of flesh and or money, in that same sense, man cannot stop child abuse.

As for faith and seeking the truth, it is held steadfast with a firm ice-pick grip be those who seek salvation, for they will not let go of it no matter what.

43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Hence when you ask me why I'm not out preaching the Good News, it is because I'm going through a recovery period and I'm looking for truth from God through Jesus Christ. How can i preach or teach others when i don't have true direction myself. That would make me as much as a hypocrite as the GB of the JW Org.  I would be giving false information to others just as JW's do. 

You have the Bible, you'd be amazed by what I have seen and heard when in Thailand, so regardless it should not stop you. When my own family members were killed by Occultist, it didn't stop me from reading and spreading the gospel.

You have a Bible, learn first then go teach, you were formerly a Jehovah's Witness, hence you have the tools right there.

Restorationist are not hypocrites and I wouldn't say that they are pushing false information. Therefore among many things, learn what a Resrationist Christian is before you say such because if people are now knowing what Christmas is all about because of Restorationist, for they themselves made the change after researching, that should be a sign, right then and there, the same thing goes for other things like Greek Language forms and the like.

But you have to be more specific about false information. So far the whole 1975 thing was incorrect as disgruntled ones push to make others believe 1975 the claim for Armageddon was on the rise when it is not - people were still out and about preaching, to add more fuel to the fire legitimate information made by someone who isn't all that religious had been flagged for removal by those who continue to push the falsehood.

You really have to open your eyes, man.

[Judith Sweeney]

@JW Insider    I have that Antique Book!!   

 

     There was a young lady named Ruth who vowed to tell only the truth

She said she would die before she would lie and she died in the prime of her youth. 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

21 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

to find reputable men to continue Christ teachings

Many religions of Christian orientation claim to have people who are credible and have the reputation of true Christians who continue Christ teachings.

WT is not exception in that way and not hold exclusivity in such claim, or in your claim. :)) 

[Anna]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

but that the S77 form that they sent to the WTS had said explicitly that they were able to disfellowship him without any report to the authorities (in a state where it is illegal not to report). Unfortunately the WTS had attached a note to the returned copy for the local file saying, in effect, 'Good job.'

I guess this could be interpreted two ways, depending on what your assumptions about the Witnesses are in the first place. Whether you believe the Witnesses' policy is not to report because they want to hide perpetrators, or whether you believe the policy is to disfellowship as soon as enough scriptural evidence is gathered, regardless of involvement  of secular authorities.

So looking at it  from the second point of view this doesn't make much sense because what does disfellowshipping have to do with reporting to authorities?  So it makes me wonder if the point that was being made was that there was sufficient scriptural evidence to disfellowship at a congregational level, without even needing evidence from the authorities (such as forensics etc.) And was the "good job" referring to good job for not reporting, or good job for gathering enough evidence to disfellowshipp?

Thankfully now it has been made clear that a case of child sexual molestation is treated two separate ways. One is at a congregational level and the other is at the secular authorities' level, as stated in par 10 of the Child Protection packet:

"If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter"

This was obviously not apparent in the Montana case.

[Srecko Sostar]

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

or part of God's world.

It will be good to define, to hear, to give definition from your side what means - "Gods world". 

Please, take in consideration space/time  determinants in one or more definition that you, or someone else here, would/will give.  

[Anna]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That's very funny. If only there were one Allen Smith who could communicate with one BillyTheKid. It's a long shot, but perhaps one of the following might have his number:

I believe my point is proven by your illicit illustration.

Only Allen would use the word "illicit" to describe JW Insider's illustration

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Can you prove the Watchtower willingly hide child abuse Elders as the Catholic Church has done with their priest?

To prove? People who are educated in searching, investigating, and have resource and are legitimate for entering inside system as Watchtower Company, have to be people from outside of "Organization". Of course, some "Insider" can be helpful in providing further details and introspective information to such team of people.    

In every religious organization (here are of great concern such organizations) exist people who have interest to hide and people who have interest to reveal. WT JWorg is not above this "human influence" :))) 

[JOHN BUTLER]

11 minutes ago, Anna said:

I guess this could be interpreted two ways, depending on what your assumptions about the Witnesses are in the first place. Whether you believe the Witnesses' policy is not to report because they want to hide perpetrators, or whether you believe the policy is to disfellowship as soon as enough scriptural evidence is gathered, regardless of involvement  of secular authorities.

So looking at it  from the second point of view this doesn't make much sense because what does disfellowshipping have to do with reporting to authorities?  So it makes me wonder if the point that was being made was that there was sufficient scriptural evidence to disfellowship at a congregational level, without even needing evidence from the authorities (such as forensics etc.) And was the "good job" referring to good job for not reporting, or good job for gathering enough evidence to disfellowshipp?

Thankfully now it has been made clear that a case of child sexual molestation is treated two separate ways. One is at a congregational level and the other is at the secular authorities' level, as stated in par 10 of the Child Protection packet:

"If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter"

This was obviously not apparent in the Montana case.

But isn't this just going round in circles. The Elders conduct a Scriptural investigation, but only if they believe Child Abuse has taken place.

If they dismiss the Victim as telling lies, because the victim does not have two witnesses, or no solid proof, then the 'investigation' is almost nothing. Many victims have said they were not believed. So it's back to square one. Elders are not trained investigators to investigate such matters. 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Child Abuse will always be an issue because the world seems to openly accept such a thing, some wanting it to be a sexual preference and the like.

SM, when you say "the world", that also including "WTJWORG world" in general concept of word "the world" too? :))

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The thing here is, I am speaking of all institutions as well as the world, even JWs - as I have told you perhaps 10 times or more.

For if child abuse was of great concern to you, you would be focused on anywhere and everywhere child abuse is done, therefore unlike you my interest is everywhere, even that of human sex trafficking granted those who claim to "help the people" were doing the opposite, as with the grooming gangs in UK and other things.

I can almost agree with you. Some people have greater concern than others. I do not know how John's  feeling and thoughts going on this issue, would he be activist or somehow involve himself in revealing problem in and out of JWORG in helping all other victims of child abuse no mater from what religion or institution they coming from.

But SM, you have to consider also one very, very important thing. WTJWORG teaching members that is of NO USE to repair, to reconstruct, to reform, to RESTORE this old world and global situation. WHY? Because "new world" is so close, so why to spend time on useless activity :))))) In other words WTJWORG say; God will fix all anyway.... so few victims more or less, why to worry, in new system in Kingdom they will not memorized nothing bad from own past!!! You JW , go to preach and not go to Court for Justice because God will take care of you. :))

   

[Srecko Sostar]

29 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Screcko

I am unclear what your understanding is. My point is to John 15:19. In Christian life, there is no middle ground. Either you have faith that God will progress your understanding or you do not. Those that stand in the middle as some do, find themselves not just questioning the authority God has put in place on earth, and at times questioning his own words listed in scripture.

According to scripture, this is the worse definition to admit by saying I am Christian, and not really mean it. What good does this do, if God knows our heart? Psalm 139: 1-24

Ask yourself, is scripture not true? Do you believe Jesus was set aside to discuss Child marriage? Do you think Christ saw to put someone on trial? Or did he condemn them personally?

 

It is about this you have said: "The distinction is where you have proven yourself to be. Part of this world, or part of God's world. There can be no intermediaries between this two conditions."

Jew people, old Israel, was been "part of God's world" and they killed a lot of own people and non-Israel people. For many century that is how looked like past "part of God's world". 

Then we have Jew-Christian and non Jew Christians and short time of how their "part of God's world" looked like.

Then we have all other scenery of 1 century post Christian era with Roman Christian and other National Christian denominations as "part of God's world".

Now, also the same. And JWORG as separate "part of God's world" World.

:))