Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

[JOHN BUTLER]

@BillyTheKid46 "Those that stand in the middle as some do, find themselves not just questioning the authority God has put in place on earth, and at times questioning his own words listed in scripture. "

So what authority has God put in place on the Earth, with proof please ?  

Of course we know about the early Christians, but i mean can you prove what authority is in place now ?  

[Anna]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If they dismiss the Victim as telling lies, because the victim does not have two witnesses, or no solid proof, then the 'investigation' is almost nothing.

This is an illogical statement. There must be a proper investigation in the first place in order to find no solid proof or no witnesses or the telling of lies. Usually the elders take any report of child abuse very seriously. And in the Montana case under discussion, it is obvious the elders did find the perpetrator guilty. I think what you mean to say is that the elders are not as qualified as persons who are especially trained from a secular point of view.  But the elders are qualified to handle this from a spiritual aspect. And as elders this is what they are concerned with. Problems have arisen because this situation needs also to be handled secularly, and if the perpetrator is found guilty, to be punished by secular law also, not just disfellowshipped.

[JOHN BUTLER]

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I can see the preexisting condition you have toward the Watchtower. This, of course, does not allow me to know if you were baptized or not. If you were disfellowshipped or just faded.

But through the understanding of scripture, which the Watchtower bases all of its understanding, one would relate to Psalm 115:3, 2 Chronicles 20:6 with which authority Christians should guide themselves with.

Under this understanding, Jesus was introduced to the world and charged with the same authority. Matthew 28:18 Jesus then gave that authority to the Apostles Luke 9:1, and then charged a large group of his disciples. Luke 10:1-23

At this point, after the last apostle died. Christianity lost the headship that should have continued under biblical understanding. Christianity decided to become authorities within themselves. They reverted back to their old ways. This is one of many reasons Pastor Russell sought to return the authority back to God through whomever God would choose.

This is the authority which has become contentious to so many. How can one prove the existence of the Holy Spirit? You asked this before. I can easily say how can you disprove the Holy Spirit. If God saw not to allow such authority, he would allow the same manifestation of 100CE continue as it has been within Christianity. But how many Churches put the full practice of scripture in their daily lives. Christianity continues to build upon what man brings to the table while hated Christians wait until God chooses to manifest himself as he did with the ancient (i.e. A Christian group, organization, gathering) Acts 6:3 now I understand some won’t consider the GB, these men as reputable men. I would just remind you, this is an assumption without earthly or heavenly proof. The prophets of old proclaimed God’s righteous laws, Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of heaven and his fathers will. The Apostles proclaimed Jesus righteousness and love. Those charged, proclaimed the Good news as taught by Jesus. Everyone had to obey God's governance and laws. Jesus was no exception, why should the GB.

What has the Watchtower missed?

I was a baptised brother for many years. January of this year i chose to 'resign' from the JW Org, because of Child Abuse issues Earthwide. I did three months research via the internet before making my decision. Then I emailed as many Elders in the congregation as i could and told them I was leaving the JW Org.  I had to go to the KH to sign paperwork and that was it. I am no longer a JW.

That does not mean i have turned against God or against Jesus Christ. I still love God and pray often. I still have love for Jesus Christ and pray through him to God. I am still looking for truth through the scriptures and prayer.

I have never questioned the existence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the 'active force' that God uses to 'get things done' and to pass on information to those God wishes to have such information. 

I find it strange that you refer to 'the Watchtower' as I tend to refer to JW Org. I've always thought of the Watchtower as being the 'business' and printing side of things. However it seems that now JW Org and the Watchtower have different legal departments, to the annoyance of the American legal system. 

Billy, you've written a lot but proved nothing. Writing about Jesus and the Apostles, giving me history as if I'm a child, does not impress me at all. I asked you what proof you have that your GB are guided by God. You give me no proof.  I ask everyone on here what proof they have that the GB are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' and no one gives me any proof what so ever.

It was nice of someone, sorry i cannot remember who it was, to show some of the 'cop outs' in Watchtower literature, showing that they are not sure of what they write. Surely if they truly believed that they were guided by God's Holy Spirit, they would have faith in God to know for sure that the things they put into print are from God. 

In the Revelation book, page 9, the writing with the picture. .... " It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infalible "

That is a cop out. That is saying they are not sure of what they write. 

Could you imagine the Apostles starting off talking to a crowd by saying, "We could be wrong but we think .... "  NO, the Apostles were guided by God's Holy Spirit and had full confidence in what they preached. 

It can be proved that the GB have got things wrong many times. Oh how i wish I still had all my study books from the 1970's onward.

I'll say it again. God does not give false information. Jesus said "What father, if his son asked for a fish, would give him a stone"  (or similar words) God will not mislead true servants of His. So why does your GB give false information ? 

Answer, because they are not who they pretend to be. 

Have i found the true answers yet, no. But if I'm looking for clean pure water i don't drink from a muddy pond. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Anna  "Problems have arisen because this situation needs also to be handled secularly, and if the perpetrator is found guilty, to be punished by secular law also, not just disfellowshipped."

We agree on that point. So why does the GB withhold information ? If all the accusations that the GB have on record were handed over to the 'proper secular channels', then all the accusations could be dealt with and those found guilty could be punished. 

Whilst now, even if a person has been disfellowshipped, they are still a danger to children outside the Org. And i come back to the 'duty of care' to the Victims and the general public. 

And as for your 'proper investigation'. It does not take much for an Elder to ask a Victim, 'Do you have witnesses' and for the Victim to say No. Then the Elder say 'There is nothing we can do then'. Investigation over.  

[JW Insider]

18 hours ago, Judith Sweeney said:

There was a young lady named Ruth who vowed to tell only the truth

She said she would die before she would lie and she died in the prime of her youth. 

Awww! That's even more tragic than the one about the lady and the tiger.

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

There must be a proper investigation in the first place in order to find no solid proof or no witnesses or the telling of lies. Usually the elders take any report of child abuse very seriously.

A site that appears closely related to Barbara Anderson's activism has an article claiming to be from an Elder who recently left over the same issue of Child Sexual Abuse. https://scaars.org/2018/10/16/an-insiders-account-about-how-a-report-of-child-sex-abuse-is-handled/

It highlights the problem brought up by John Butler. These are from 3 through 6 of the 10 bullet points from that article:

• Two elders would be assigned to talk to the victim and her parent to gather details. If they determine that the child is giving a truthful account, they would report back to the Coordinator about their findings. The proper legal authorities would still not be notified.

• Their next step would be to call the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (WTBS) in New York. The Legal Department would then direct them as to whether or not they are legally obligated to contact the proper legal authorities to report the case. The default stance taken is that, unless there is a specific state law directing them to do so, the authorities need not be notified.

• The elders then determine if there will need to be an internal judicial hearing about the accusation. If there is only one witness to the abuse, as is the case in almost every instance of sexual abuse, they will not pursue it further. If there are two witnesses to that specific instance or if there are multiple reports from different children that this has happened at the hands of the same person, they will form a judicial committee to determine whether the offender is repentant. This committee will decide whether the offender can remain a member of the congregation or will be excommunicated, or disfellowshipped according to Jehovah’s Witness nomenclature.

• If the offender is not disfellowshipped, other members are not informed about the situation. At the most, an announcement might be made that the offender was “reproved” but displayed repentance. No mention of the type of crime will be divulged to the congregation. Parents will be unaware that a sexual offender is in their midst. They will continue to socialize and trust that their children are safe even in the presence of the offender.

 

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, Anna said:

I guess this could be interpreted two ways, depending on what your assumptions about the Witnesses are in the first place. Whether you believe the Witnesses' policy is not to report because they want to hide perpetrators, or whether you believe the policy is to disfellowship as soon as enough scriptural evidence is gathered, regardless of involvement  of secular authorities.

So looking at it  from the second point of view this doesn't make much sense because what does disfellowshipping have to do with reporting to authorities?  So it makes me wonder if the point that was being made was that there was sufficient scriptural evidence to disfellowship at a congregational level, without even needing evidence from the authorities (such as forensics etc.) And was the "good job" referring to good job for not reporting, or good job for gathering enough evidence to disfellowshipp?

We will probably find that the appeal will include exactly those arguments in defense of the the WTS. On appeal, the judgment will likely be reduced to less than $10MM because the excuse to raise it to $30+MM was very tenuous. Appeal was guaranteed on that count alone. But if the WTS attorneys can move the fault to local congregation elders, then the monetary judgment will be minimal.

[JOHN BUTLER]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

A site that appears closely related to Barbara Anderson's activism has an article claiming to be from an Elder who recently left over the same issue of Child Sexual Abuse. https://scaars.org/2018/10/16/an-insiders-account-about-how-a-report-of-child-sex-abuse-is-handled/

It highlights the problem brought up by John Butler. These are from 3 through 6 of the 10 bullet points from that article:

• Two elders would be assigned to talk to the victim and her parent to gather details. If they determine that the child is giving a truthful account, they would report back to the Coordinator about their findings. The proper legal authorities would still not be notified.

• Their next step would be to call the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (WTBS) in New York. The Legal Department would then direct them as to whether or not they are legally obligated to contact the proper legal authorities to report the case. The default stance taken is that, unless there is a specific state law directing them to do so, the authorities need not be notified.

• The elders then determine if there will need to be an internal judicial hearing about the accusation. If there is only one witness to the abuse, as is the case in almost every instance of sexual abuse, they will not pursue it further. If there are two witnesses to that specific instance or if there are multiple reports from different children that this has happened at the hands of the same person, they will form a judicial committee to determine whether the offender is repentant. This committee will decide whether the offender can remain a member of the congregation or will be excommunicated, or disfellowshipped according to Jehovah’s Witness nomenclature.

• If the offender is not disfellowshipped, other members are not informed about the situation. At the most, an announcement might be made that the offender was “reproved” but displayed repentance. No mention of the type of crime will be divulged to the congregation. Parents will be unaware that a sexual offender is in their midst. They will continue to socialize and trust that their children are safe even in the presence of the offender.

 

Thank you for your comment and the link is much appreciated. I believe every word of it, but of course many JW's won't. 

It does very much demonstrate what i have been saying and why i left the JW Org. 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

23 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please, take in consideration space/time  determinants in one or more definition that you, or someone else here, would/will give

Screcko

I am unclear what your understanding is

To give more clarification. JW under influence of GB have "mantras" that said; Light gets brighter, FDS aka GB are not inspired but are guided,  We have The Truth, and similar.

In that sense (as general view of WT) JW are as "continuation" of unique Christian congregation of 1 century and "continuation" of apostle and Jesus "unspoiled" teachings about God and holy scriptures, and as such, they have own "world that belong only to God", or they are "part of God's world", as i understand your state.

But as we see also "continuation" in doctrinal changes and by that in behavior and acts that are allowed or stopped to be  allowed, or that are forbidden or stopped to be forbidden, shows that idea of "been part of God's world" have changing effects in life of JW.  JW said how JHVH is god who can not and not change, but his followers and worshipers aka JW  making changes with justification how such changes coming from god , but in same time explaining how JHVH is in fact unchangeable :))). In fact GB try to prove how same teaching JW have now is the same teaching apostles and Jesus had before and vice versa, teaching that apostle had is same that JW have now. 

So, all is "the same" and all is "as in first century congregation", but light gets brighter or changes are viewed as normal evolution process despite the claim how JW nowadays just imitate first congregation and living as first Christians. This is strange idea. WTJWorg try to explain something that is not true in fact. Enumerate how primitive congregation was preach, not went  to warn not celebrated pagan holidays and some other stuff is nice, but to making never ending changes and flip-flops of doctrines and in same time proclaiming himself as the successor to the first church is funny.

:)) sorry for "cryptic", unclear English language sentences. People who are able to understand me have that something in brain that helps  to see what i try to explain :))

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

  I believe every word of it, but of course many JW's won't. 

I don't see why JW's wont believe this, as it's pretty much how many cases were handled, although a few words were a little loaded showing obvious bias.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It does very much demonstrate what i have been saying and why i left the JW Org. 

As far as I know @JW Insider is an active Witness. If so, perhaps he would like to explain why he didn't leave the org.  Sorry JW Insider if I put you on the spot, but this goes back to my conversation with John Butler where I pointed out that I have probably read the same kind of information as him, but why is it that it made him leave, and why am I staying. I know it's a lot more complex than that. There are a lot of factors at play in including personality, experience, honesty, trust etc. Unfortunately our conversation trailed off, maybe it can be restarted again since the topic is "why John Butler left Jehovah's Witnesses" (the topic I never started, the librarian was at it again)

[Space Merchant]

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I can almost agree with you. Some people have greater concern than others. I do not know how John's  feeling and thoughts going on this issue, would he be activist or somehow involve himself in revealing problem in and out of JWORG in helping all other victims of child abuse no mater from what religion or institution they coming from.

And yet the common man recognizes child abuse is everywhere, an they are not focused on a sole group and or person, for wherever there is a danger of such a thing it is concerning, anywhere and everywhere, if you actually take into account what PSA and other information says about Child Abuse and Neglect, you'd realize that yourself.

Granted to what Mr. Butler said before in an early discussion, one can see where he stands, I wouldn't call it activism when the grand majority knows that this is a problem, for if anyone has great concern it should be to educate people and seek better solutions.

If his concern was with all institution he would have stated this, but he has not, for his one and only focus, as it is evident in half of his posts, is regarding Jehovah's Witnesses only unless you want to point out to where his concern is drawn out elsewhere - be my guess.

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But SM, you have to consider also one very, very important thing. WTJWORG teaching members that is of NO USE to repair, to reconstruct, to reform, to RESTORE this old world and global situation. WHY? Because "new world" is so close, so why to spend time on useless activity :))))) In other words WTJWORG say; God will fix all anyway.... so few victims more or less, why to worry, in new system in Kingdom they will not memorized nothing bad from own past!!! You JW , go to preach and not go to Court for Justice because God will take care of you. :))

The more you speak only shows how very little you know about the history of Christianity, perhaps the Abrahamic Faiths.

I've explained to you 4 times what a Restorationist is and or what is Restorationism, but it would seem what is said goes in one ear and out the other, instead of repeating myself I will link so you know what it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism

What you missed in the New Testament is the fact that God by means of his Son will get rid of all things wicked, even people, he will always erased from the earth all things that has been a burden on us and all things that has affected us in a bad way, this includes all imperfections that originate from sin -including child abuse and ill desires. If you miss that point in the Bible, let alone what God's Kingdom will bring, how do you say to yourself you read the Bible and understand it when something this minor you fail to accept?

Perhaps get preached on this as well as research, Srecko - for if you do not trust in God, there is no reason for you to seek now is there?

On 10/19/2018 at 1:28 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Many religions of Christian orientation claim to have people who are credible and have the reputation of true Christians who continue Christ teachings.

WT is not exception in that way and not hold exclusivity in such claim, or in your claim. :)) 

And ye we have the Babylon in Texas - LIVE, right now. And no, not all denominations claim such as for WT  they are Restorationist, the link I provided for you will show you want they base their practices and teachings on.

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jew people, old Israel, was been "part of God's world" and they killed a lot of own people and non-Israel people. For many century that is how looked like past "part of God's world". 

Did you not understand what was going on in the Old Testament? Israel had enemies, especially those who curse God and spare no remorse when it comes to defiling God's people, the very reason people had to step up. Last time you spoke of Barak and now we see the contradiction, only things time you didn't confuse his role to a Prophetess.

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Then we have Jew-Christian and non Jew Christians and short time of how their "part of God's world" looked like.

They have a name, it is called Messianic Jews, that is, if you are referring to today. Messianic Jews do not follow the early church or her teachings, they open themselves up to things that is accursed and or not aligned with what is said in the Bible. Some of them willingly accept non-Bible canons as truth.

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Then we have all other scenery of 1 century post Christian era with Roman Christian and other National Christian denominations as "part of God's world".

The Apostolic Church and it's early Christians are National Christian denominations? How are you so sure when they are borderline Subornationist an the fact you missed what Apostle Paul said in Galatians?

23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Now, also the same. And JWORG as separate "part of God's world" World.

They are not part of the world not by what their teachings says, but the fact they adhere to Restorationism (I suggest you study this for I give this to you as Homework, hence the link), whether you agree with them or not. The biggest proof of that, today even, is what is going on in Texas, as well as the reaction by some JWs, who show the same reaction to Together 2016, as others have, as well as those who reacted to the Kairos Movement. 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

As far as I know @JW Insider is an active Witness. If so, perhaps he would like to explain why he didn't leave the org. 

making comparison on why one person do something and other not is not useful, it can be interesting to hear of course, but not giving that something for us what can move us in right direction. Right for us personally. JW Insider or you Anna have same or similar information as John, but not making same or similar steps. 

I know  JW brother, some kind of friend (ex friend), some 10 years older then me. He said me few times similar stuff or different in time of my "waking" about WT. But he still is in. And he still talking against and about some things about "organization". So, what make him better or worse than me, or someone else here or there? :))