2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Nothing in scripture states equality with Adam. 

So when Jesus was on earth in which ways was he not similar to Adam.

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So when Jesus was on earth in which ways was he not similar to Adam.

Who said He wasn't similar to Adam?

similar and equal are two very different things. 

 

 

Was Jesus a man while on Earth? Yep. 

Did He relinquish those attributes He held prior to coming to Earth when He came down?  Nope.   

[the Sower of Seed]

On 1/13/2020 at 11:39 AM, Shiwiii said:

On 1/10/2020 at 8:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus had to be corresponding to Adam in order for justice to occur.

unsubstantiated 

ὁ (From a Greek Interlinear:

the (one) δοὺς (having given) ἑαυτὸν (himself) ἀντίλυτρον (corresponding ransom) ὑπὲρ (over)

 

 

 

(all (ones) τὸ (the) μαρτύριον (witness) καιροῖς (to appointed times)

The Flavor of ἀντί  λυτρον is corresponding to (Christ had to COVER Adam’s Life as the Best of Human Creation) without defect, without sin, very good, perfect without blemish.His Disobedience caused his change from perfect to un-perfect.

The only Absolute perfection is Jehovah God. He created angels and humans with Free Will rather than force them to obey,  He offers benefits for obedience and punishment for disobedience.

The Entire theme of the Bible is God explaining what has happened and what steps are being taken to return man to spiritual and fleshly perfection.

There would be no need for a Bible if Adam did not sin, for God spoke to Adam and Eve and would speak with us if we were not sinful.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”   

How was Adam like God? Adam had a consciousness of life, he could reason, adding one thought to another, he had a conscience, discerning what is wrong and right, he had the potential to live forever like God.

Genesis 1:28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

God commissioned them to do something that would take thousands/millions of years. Would God order them to do this if they were to die long before they finished?

Genesis 2:15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it.16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Death is the penalty for disobedience, had there not been disobedience, there would not be human death. Genesis 3:4 Satan calls God a liar: 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. Eve ate and gave some to Adam.

After Adam sinned, God sat in judgment of them and foretold the future of man and Satan. God foretells a “seed” that would come from God’s creation and Satan would give it a “Heel” wound, afterwards the seed would give Satan a head wound.

Why is man the dominate sex? To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will give birth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”

Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. (The foods we desire must be cultivated)

Is it possible for humans to live forever? Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Genesis 3:22 Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever.

Mankind could eat this fruit and live forever, Adam and Eve were free to eat it while they lived in the Garden, in fact they may have eaten it regularly. Even after Adam sinned it could have this affect, but it would not repair the relationship with God or change the way the Earth and it’s people suffer today.

God cast Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and never spoke with them again. They were now criminals, having transgressed the law of God. We all live within a prison of sin and death. In order to be freed, someone equivalent to Adam would have to sacrifice that possible eternal future as a human to God to replace the life Adam, our father, threw away.

How GOOD was the life Adam and Eve would have lived?

We only need to look at what God promises to those who accept the value of Christ’ blood and enter a relationship with Him, hoping to never forsake appreciation for all He has done.

No Wars, Feeling of Security on their own place:

Psalm 46:9  He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth….

Micah 4:4 They will sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, And no one will make them afraid, For the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken.

God will cause the Earth to produce:

Isaiah 35  The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.

Their own place and they will build their own homes:

Isaiah 65:21-23  They will build houses and live in them,

And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.

22  They will not build for someone else to inhabit,

Nor will they plant for others to eat.

For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,

And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.

23  They will not toil for nothing,

Nor will they bear children for distress,

Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,

And their descendants with them.

Never Sick:

Isaiah 33:24  And no resident will say: “I am sick.”

The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.

Youthful Flesh and Energy Forever:….

Job 33:25  Let his flesh become fresher than in youth;

Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.

Interactivity with God:

Isaiah 65:24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Peace with the animals:

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down, And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 The cow and the bear will feed together, And their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. 8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. 9 They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain, Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah.

Adam was the Best of God’s creations, the “crowning point of creation” God looked at Adam and Eve and concluded they were “ very good”. Adam and Eve would have had all that God promises us by means of His Kingdom. Jesus human life had to “cover” all that Adam was and could become prior to his disobedience.

The Books of Exodus, Leviticus & Deuteronomy explain God’s principles and that sacrifices to Him all had to be without blemish, perfect, the best you had.

Exodus 21:23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Jesus human attributes and behavior had to be correspond to what Adam was prior to his disobedience.

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Did He relinquish those attributes He held prior to coming to earth........ Nope

 Was he flest like Adam when ön Earth? 

16 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Mankind could eat this fruit and live forever, Adam and Eve were free to eat it while they lived in the Garden, in fact they may have eaten it regularly. Even after

Interesting thought: like the tree of good and bad , I was sure it was symbolic...... because there is no way jehovah would make our everlasting lives depend on a literal tree as we need obedience to him for e everlasting life..... 

19 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Good scripture: jesus paid the randsom with eye for eye, ........it was an exact equal sacrifice... Jehovah knows how to do anything with equal justice and righteousness. 

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Who said He wasn't similar to Adam?

similar and equal are two very different things. 

Actually Jesus was more than equal... if you want to get technical.  Jehovah could have sent another angel  but he did not because he sent the best he had - his first created son.  (His firstborn).

However when on earth - he was just a man in flesh like Adam. He forfeited his position in heaven and received an earthly body like Adam.  He put his soul in death like Adam - so his sacrifice / price was a perfect soul  for an imperfect soul.....  a ransom.  

He was subject to the same conditions (pain and suffering)  imperfect Adam and the whole of mankind experienced and yet maintained perfect loyalty to God.  He was subject to death, injury, hunger, pain, betrayal etc - As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned. Adam started out perfect like Jesus. Jesus proved that  perfect Adam could have remained faithful to God even when tested.

 

[the Sower of Seed]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Interesting thought: like the tree of good and bad , I was sure it was symbolic...... because there is no way jehovah would make our everlasting lives depend on a literal tree as we need obedience to him for e everlasting life..... 

I hear you, I'm just trying to answer the statement that was made that something created perfect doesn't become imperfect.

 As we think about that day some 6000 years ago, Jehovah throws them out, physically they are still perfect, how did they physically become imperfect? Did Jehovah alter Adam's DNA? Did physical perfection depend on something in Eden?

Jehovah seems to indicate they could sustain physical perfection by re-entering the Garden, but how could something ingested alter your DNA toward perfection? 

Spiritual Perfection depends on obedience and a active relationship with Jehovah, that perfection will allow us to communicate with Jehovah individually.Can we even imagine that?

After Armageddon, Jehovah will teach us how to achieve all we can be through the "leaves of the trees that grow close to the waters from the throne". Today, we search the deeper things of the Bible, stringing verses together as we go deeper into a well that cannot be exhausted. 

 

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Flavor of ἀντί  λυτρον is corresponding to (Christ had to COVER Adam’s Life as the Best of Human Creation) without defect, without sin, very good, perfect without blemish.His Disobedience caused his change from perfect to un-perfect.

What Greek interlinear/Lexicon/ are you using? None of the ones I have cross referenced said anything about corresponding.

Strong's, Thayer, Dodson, Liddell and Scott, Tyndale all say ransom and do not elude to a corresponding, or equal payment. 

 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

Was he flest like Adam when ön Earth? 

yup

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

However when on earth - he was just a man in flesh like Adam.

I would argue "just a man in flesh", not quite. "just a man in flesh" does not do the things Jesus did. When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons....who know you by name....? Fed thousands with some small fish and some bread? Etc.

 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

sacrifice / price was a perfect soul  for an imperfect soul.....  a ransom.  

Then why does scripture say Jesus paid the ransom for ALL? If it was just man for man, then why does it say for all? Because it is not equal for equal, it is Jesus for ALL. You, me and those down the street. 

 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

He was subject to the same conditions (pain and suffering)

agreed

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

He was subject to death, injury, hunger, pain, betrayal etc

agreed

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned.

disagree

Adam NEVER had the position Jesus has always had. 

 

 

[Arauna]

12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons

I have not, but Paul and Peter raised people from the dead because they received the same Holy spirit as jesus did and many of early anointed had special gifts from God to help with establishment of new congregations.

 

15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam NEVER had the position Jesus has always had. 

I agree with the above. But I did not say what you say above.

 

15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned.

I said the above. 

[Shiwiii]

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have not, but Paul and Peter raised people from the dead because they received the same Holy spirit as jesus did and many of early anointed had special gifts from God to help with establishment of new congregations.

 

I agree with the above. But I did not say what you say above.

 

I said the above. 

Its totally fine that we do not agree.

I have not seen one scripture which backs your (and the rest of jws) claims Adam and Jesus were equal, not for a ransom, not for anything.

[Arauna]

19 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

claims Adam and Jesus were equal,

You left out this:  BEFORE Adam sinned.  

[Shiwiii]

36 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You left out this:  BEFORE Adam sinned.  

doesn't matter. Before, after, during.....never was Adam and Jesus equal

 

I'd also like to add to the discussion, Isaiah 53. 

What does this chapter say about the Messiah? The last verse speaks about the whole chapter:

Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

 

This hardly sounds like an equivalent with Adam. 

[Shiwiii]

Hebrews 9:²⁷ And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, ²⁸ so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

Again, These scriptures clearly state the value of Jesus' sacrifice is much greater then that of Adam.