2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth

[Shiwiii]

1 John 2:2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; ² and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

 

Matt 20:²⁴ And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers. ²⁵ But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. ²⁶ It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, ²⁷ and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; ²⁸ just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

[the Sower of Seed]

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I would argue "just a man in flesh", not quite. "just a man in flesh" does not do the things Jesus did. When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons....who know you by name....? Fed thousands with some small fish and some bread? Etc.

What were the Apostles, were they more than imperfect men, more than just men of flesh? No, they were even SINNERS who God's Holy Spirit empowered to raise the dead, heal the sick, expel demons, walk on the water, speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit from the ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD DID ALL THE MIRACLES. GOD is the Source of HOLY SPIRIT, not Jesus, Not Paul, Not Peter, Only Jehovah is why it is called “God’s Holy Spirit”

2 Corinthians 4:7 Now there are different gifts, but there is the same spirit;5and there are different ministries, and yet there is the same Lord;6 and there are different activities, and yet it is the same God who performs them all in everyone.7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose.

ἀντί λυτρον is a dual word, search for ἀντί  then search for λυτρον. ἀντί  will yield results of "instead of" meaning Jesus life instead of Adams, or corresponding Jesus to Adam. λυτρον will yield ransom

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Then why does scripture say Jesus paid the ransom for ALL? If it was just man for man, then why does it say for all? Because it is not equal for equal, it is Jesus for ALL. You, me and those down the street. 

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I have not seen one scripture which backs your (and the rest of jws) claims Adam and Jesus were equal, not for a ransom, not for anything.

Every person born from Adam needed a sinless man to redeem them from their father Adam's sin. God applies Jesus sacrifice to Adam, freeing every son and daughter from the debt incurred from Adam the father. Adam was the only sinless man that needed a redeemer to release his family.

You have been shown several scriptures, you are not accepting the evidence before you that Jesus was miraculously born a sinless man, Adam was created a sinless man, when Adam sinned, a sinless man had to give his life to pay the price in order to free the children of the man that sinned. Adam sold his children into slavery to sin.

Here is the legal basis to repurchase a slave, which all of us are. This is the legal touchstone from the Grand Judge and Lawgiver Jehovah

Leviticus 25:

47“‘But if a foreign resident or a settler among you becomes wealthy and your brother has become poor alongside him and must sell himself to the foreign resident or the settler who lives among you, or to a member of the family of the foreign resident,48 he will continue to have the right of repurchase after he has sold himself. One of his brothers may buy him back,49 or his uncle or the son of his uncle may buy him back, or any close relative, one of his family, may buy him back. “‘Or if he himself has become wealthy, he may also buy himself back.

Jehovah became the Repurchaser of every one who has inherited slavery to sin, why Jehovah and not Jesus? Jehovah gave His Son, Jesus. Jesus was born in the flesh and by extension became like his brothers of the human “family” his blood would free from slavery. Paul states this at Hebrews 2:   

11For both the one who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all stem from one, and for this reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers,12 as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you with song.”13 And again: “I will put my trust in him.” And again: “Look! I and the young children, whom Jehovah gave me.”14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.16 For it is not really angels he is assisting, but he is assisting Abraham’s offspring.17 Consequently, he had to become like his “brothers” in all respects, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, in order to offer a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people.

Ephesians1:7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.

Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

14:3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

 This point is not nominally argued, what organization does your beliefs represent? 

 

 

[Shiwiii]

12 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

What were the Apostles, were they more than imperfect men, more than just men of flesh? No, they were even SINNERS who God's Holy Spirit empowered to raise the dead, heal the sick, expel demons, walk on the water, speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit from the ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD DID ALL THE MIRACLES

agreed

 

13 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Every person born from Adam needed a sinless man to redeem them from their father Adam's sin. God applies Jesus sacrifice to Adam, freeing every son and daughter from the debt incurred from Adam the father. Adam was the only sinless man that needed a redeemer to release his family.

Then why did Jesus say that He died for the sins of MANY? Matt 20:26 specifically?

The scriptures I quoted in my previous post shows that Jesus died for more then just Adam and that is what Jesus even said. So then the question is, Do you believe Jesus or the gb?  

 

13 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You have been shown several scriptures, you are not accepting the evidence before you that Jesus was miraculously born a sinless man

please...gimmie a break. strawman much?

 

13 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Adam was created a sinless man, when Adam sinned, a sinless man had to give his life to pay the price in order to free the children of the man that sinned. Adam sold his children into slavery to sin.

Here is the legal basis to repurchase a slave, which all of us are. This is the legal touchstone from the Grand Judge and Lawgiver Jehovah

 so we are going round and round. You keep bringing up that eye for eye thing and that's supposedly how God does things....ok, lets look at something:

 

Exodus 21:²³ But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, ²⁴ eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, ²⁵ burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

This is where you are at? yes.....this is your, and the rest of jws, get your belief on Adam=Jesus. 

 

Why if this is "Gods way" and He has to have an equal payment/ransom, then why did God allow for Israel to sacrifice a ram/goat/bird etc. for the atonement for the nation of Israel over and over and over again in the OT? 

The reason is because it isn't Gods way to have an eye for an eye, etc. It was His rules for Israel and to show them that sins needed a covering. God hates sin and the penalty for sin is death. Did He kill people in the OT for sins? Sometimes He did, but He had a plan already in place to atone for the sins of all of mankind, Jesus death. Jesus died for the sins of many, not just Adam. Jesus said so and I believe He said it to correct the belief of eye for eye. Just read again Matt 20 and listen to what Jesus said. He said He was the ransom for many and gave an illustration of paying wages to men who worked. Some worked longer then others but all received the same pay and when they began to grumble, He pointed out that the payment was made upon agreement, and that generosity was given to those who do not deserve it. Jesus goes on to say that same thing but by means of His ransom. We do not deserve to be let off the hook for our sins, it is by our faith in Jesus we get to......all who call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus. 

 

2 Corinthians 5:

¹⁷ Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. ¹⁸ Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, ¹⁹ namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has^]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

²⁰ Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. ²¹ He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

again, here it is stated that Jesus died for many, not just one. If we believe that Jesus died for Adam's sin and not because of our own sin, then we have missed the whole point of Jesus sacrifice. Jesus died to reconcile us to God. This is what is being said in 2 Cor 5. We cannot blame Adam for our sins, our sins are ours and it is only by faith in Jesus do they get forgiven by the sacrifice He paid for each and every one of us who believe. 

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

This point is not nominally argued, what organization does your beliefs represent?

I do not align with an organization, I align with people who read the Bible and understand it as I do. I am not THE expert on the Bible, but I know some who are and even they are sinners. 

 

You forgot to add to Hebrews 2 verse 9

⁹ But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

[the Sower of Seed]

9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Then why did Jesus say that He died for the sins of MANY? Matt 20:26 specifically?

26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 

I felt I explained this already, Adam was sinless, A sinless man was needed to repurchase the human family that inherited sin from Adam. Jesus died for all who inherited sin from Adam. Jesus gave his life to God to repurchase us with the equal value of his sinless human life. If Adam was valued at $1,000,000 would God accept a sinner valued at $100.

No, a sinless man, equal to Adam, had to give his life and all his eternal hope as a human, to pay Adam's debt to God for his sin. Jesus body repurchased all who have died in Adam and gives us access in prayer to God to ask forgiveness for own sins.

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Why if this is "Gods way" and He has to have an equal payment/ransom, then why did God allow for Israel to sacrifice a ram/goat/bird etc. for the atonement for the nation of Israel over and over and over again in the OT? 

Jehovah allowed animal sacrifice to teach mankind their hopeless condition.The blood of animals did not bring forgiveness of sin or access to Him in prayer. They did not equal the sinless man Adam's blood. Adam had to be replaced. Jesus became the father of all in place of Adam, giving access to God, through the flaming swords and the vast divide, and the basis to ask for release from Adam's sin and their own daily sins and a clean conscience before God on the basis of Jesus sin atoning blood.     

God is not going to rescue millions of people who see Him differently,that believe differently who is God. He has taught mankind what to believe through Christ's Brothers. Those brothers would be unitedly preaching the same message, the Good News of God's Kingdom systematically in all the inhabited Earth.

Humility is needed, Saul of Tarsus had to humble himself and join those he hated!

God is searching for True Worshipers, they must follow the One Truth that is preached in every Kingdom Hall every week anywhere in the world. Jehovah's Witnesses are United by Truth!

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus died for all who inherited sin from Adam.

Hang on, so what you are saying is that you sin because Adam did?  This is essentially what you are saying. You are not accountable for your sins, just Adam is and you think that Jesus is paying for what Adam did and not for what YOU have done. 

 

Think about that for a moment. 

 

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus gave his life to God to repurchase us with the equal value of his sinless human life.

Why in the world would Jesus' be equal to Adam? Jesus created Adam, thus cannot be equal. 

 

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

No, a sinless man, equal to Adam,

You DO think Jesus and Adam are equal.   Ok, I guess you believe something completely outside of the Bible. I've given you scripture after scripture that shows that Jesus died for OUR sins, all of mankind who believe in Him. Everyone, All, etc. But you hold fast to this idea that is NOT found in scripture. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus and Adam are equal in anyway, context tells us this. When people tell you over and over and over again, you start to believe what they are saying without looking for yourself. 

I hope that one day you find the true meaning of Jesus sacrifice. 

 

 

by the way, you never answered why God would have allowed animal sacrifices, in the OT, verses man for man and eye for eye when dealing with the nation of Israel. You skimmed it and decided to incorporate jw talk to tickle the ears of other jws. 

 

 

[Arauna]

8 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

This is essentially what you are saying. You are not accountable for your sins, just Adam is and you think that Jesus is paying for what Adam did and 

 

You change his words and put words in his mouth.... you do this all the time to twist a point. This is not honest.  

[the Sower of Seed]

9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Hang on, so what you are saying is that you sin because Adam did?  This is essentially what you are saying. You are not accountable for your sins, just Adam is and you think that Jesus is paying for what Adam did and not for what YOU have done. 

We INHERITED sin from Adam. Adam's sin is the most important before God. Adam was perfect, his thinking was equal to Jesus. He spoke directly to God and God taught him during the years they spent together. Adam chose to turn his back on his designer and creator, like spitting in your fathers face for all the good he did to you!  Adam sold us into slavery to sin. 

Look at it this way. Adam was created in God's image and would live forever on the Earth fathering many children with his wife,Eve.Then one day Adam broke the law and was now sentenced to death, he was unplugged from the source of life, Jehovah, and sent to prison to await his death. While in prison waiting for this, Eve joins him and he fathers 8 billion people, we all share in the crime and all are still imprisoned. Who committed the crime? Adam. He is long dead, but we are still imprisoned for his crime, in order for us to be freed, compensation / restitution must be payed to God / the court for the crime. That compensation is "one perfect man". Since we are all criminals / sinful, where would we find a perfect man, then convince him to give up eternity for us! The court demands eye for eye, tooth for tooth, no less then Adam was prior to his crime.

God, out of His deep love for life, sent His Beloved Son, Jesus,he paid the compensation that justice demanded, why aren't we free? Because the court has set forth to find who of the prisoners will accept God's code of conduct and who will not. Then when the court resumes, like at Daniel 7:26. Two types of paroles will be granted, those who want to honor/obey God will be given probation for a thousand years then be re-examined before their parole is complete. The second parole is total freedom from life and all that includes immediately after the court recesses for the thousand years. You can't expect God to grant life in Eden to billions who will treat Him and Eden with the same contempt Adam did.

Unless we accept Jehovah's moral standards and worship Him in Spirit & Truth, with all the others He has called and who answered agreeably, our praying for the forgiveness of our personal sins is irrelevant, it may indicate some reverence toward God, but that means nothing unless we honor Him and His Will. He is searching for True Worshipers. We chose which we are!

Just like Saul of Tarsus, we must accept what God ask for us. Or not.