Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[JW Insider]

@Kosonen, I agree with much of what @Arauna has said above but I would consider several different factors that get in the way of the NYC identification for BtG.

For one thing, there is what I already mentioned about the idea that Jehovah would "lead" the WTS out of NYC/BtG for a few extra moments of smooth operation and comfort when this tribulation on NYC begins, but not do the same for all the Circuit Overseers, Elders, pioneers, individual anointed ones, and "rank-and-file" Witness families. It makes Jehovah a "respecter of persons" and it makes it appear that Jehovah wants to protect buildings and physical equipment as somehow more important than lowly individuals. Yet Jehovah sees the "sparrow" fall to the ground.

(1 Corinthians 10:13) . . .No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Why would Jehovah make the way out for some, so many years in advance, but not make the way out for others until a related tribulation is right on top of them? Potentially trapping Witnesses in the worst of all situations for 3.5 years.

I understand how you could still defend against this possible contradiction. After all, a major point of the Olivet sermon (Mt24,Mk13,Lk21) was to get Christians out of Jerusalem in time so that would avoid the greatest part of the tribulation, but not send them out so early that they would suffer for years waiting after fleeing to the mountains of Pella, for example. Jehovah made a way out in this case by opening a "window of opportunity" between the attack in 66 CE, and the destruction in 70 CE (which coincidentally [?] happened to be about 3.5 years). And of course, the cutting short of those days of tribulation was on account of the "chosen ones." You could make an argument that the "chosen ones" do not generally include the anointed or other Witnesses outside of NY headquarters, but especially refers to those "chosen ones" at the headquarters in upstate NY.

Through "eisegesis," it is possible to make almost any historical situation fit a Biblical prophecy when the prophecy is written in symbols, or we are overly anxious to see prophecy fulfilled. You mentioned the fact that the WTS makes most of this prophecy fulfilled 100 years ago. In truth, the WT writers could just as easily have found "significant" fulfillments for these prophecies anywhere between 1799 and 2019. Russell found fulfillments in the 1800's. The WT writers in Rutherford's time latched onto the most dramatic thing that ever happened to the WT organization during the time period of "limbo" between 1914 and 1925. As an example the Watch Tower publications promoted ideas like the following that very year in 1919:

   

Of course, these writers were "cut from the same cloth" as those who could write the 1917 book "The Finished Mystery" which contains so many outlandish "fulfillments" of prophecy, such as Revelation 14:20 being prophesied in advance as the distance from Brooklyn to Scranton by way of the Lackawana RR station (p.230). This was a book that could literally find some significance in Brother Russell's hemorrhoids (p.54).

Of course, I'm not comparing your idea to the same foolishness produced in "The Finished Mystery." NYC does more than just "symbolize" a commercial center, a financial center, a foreign relations center (UN), a fashion center, an entertainment center. To some extent it's just about every kind of worldly center except a religious center. 

My main reason for dismissing the significance of NYC as prophetically significant here, however, is because I don't believe we should pin any of our "end-times" expectations on any specific "knowledge" about anything happening in the world today. That includes anything that the UN says no matter how significant it seems. It also means we should give no particular significance to anything that the Pope says, anything that any world council of churches or any other leaders would say -- if we think it means that the end is somehow more imminent because of anything we might think is a sign matching a prophecy in the Bible.

And that's because Jesus warned us that the end would come at a time when it would surprise us. A thief does not give a sign or warning before breaking into a house, therefore we would expect no sign or advance warning. The parousia will come upon the world while people are still thinking there is peace and security, much like the way life was going on as usual before the Flood, or before fire rained down upon Sodom, as if without warning. The circumstances of this speculation about NYC, according to your own explanation, provides a way of extending the end of the system beyond 3.5 years from now. This creates a problem. It creates a window of opportunity for some to say "the master is delaying" and a temptation to use that time to lord it over their fellow slaves. It creates a window of opportunity for the heart to be tempted into a lull, where the love of a great number of Christians could cool off. Jesus told us that it would come as a surprise for a reason. So that we would be ready at all times, not just trying to get our hearts in shape after we see a significant sign.

Also, you pretty much admitted that this NYC scenario provides "no reason to panic" on the one hand and a reason to warn Witnesses in NYC on the other hand, when this scenario is more widely understood.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Yet Jehovah sees the "sparrow" fall to the ground.

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t fall. Maybe he has a point.

Did you notice how Bro Losch ran down all those end-time predictions from about the year 400? There was a avalanche of them. When he got to ‘our brothers have made some, too’, he didn’t take cover in numbers. He doubled-down and went into detail of how they missed. He didn’t even use the perfect outs that he might have used—verses like Acts 1:6 to show that they were in good company.

So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”  

No budging on 1914, though.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

And that's because Jesus warned us that the end would come at a time when it would surprise us. A thief does not give a sign or warning before breaking into a house, therefore we would expect no sign or advance warning.

I can agree. But GB wouldn't. :))

They wrote in WT study edition how JW members  need to be ready to listen/obey any instructions from GB to elders channels, because that will save their lives.

Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith. -https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pl/r1/lp-e?q=w13 11%2F15 20

 

[Arauna]

4 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

can agree. But GB wouldn't. :))

It uses the illustration of the thief to indicate we do not know the day  -this will be a surprise.

However, in Noah's day they saw him building the ark .  Laughed at him when he preached to them about the flood.  There were visible signs that something was going to happen. ..... they went on with their eating, drinking, marrying .... with normal life until the day came. Jesus co pares the perousia with this.

He also compares it to a pregnant woman.   This indicates one sees the sign of the pregnancy but the day one does not know of the actual birth. The bigger the stomach gets the closer one knows it is. So one knows the inevitable is here but jne still does not know the hour.

Then there is the fig tree .... when you see the flowers one knows the fruits will be coming.... one sees them growing and have an idea they will ripen soon.

The bible has many if these illustrations- - to deny their implications is basically putting your own interpretation on the bible.  They are clear and understandable. 

 

[JW Insider]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They wrote in WT study edition how JW members  need to be ready to listen/obey any instructions from GB to elders channels, because that will save their lives.

This can still be true of times of great persecution which we can also expect to come up suddenly, as if without warning. (Although in cases like this, brothers in many lands can look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. We should be willing to consider that instructions coming from a central monitoring location can be very valuable. The Governing Body have collected experiences from Germany in the WWII era, and from many countries around the world since then. As long as we aren't accepting their words as definite indications that the end is imminently upon us, there is no reason to just reject instructions from those who want to look out for the whole association of brothers.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

This can still be true of times of great persecution which we can also expect to come up suddenly, as if without warning. (Although in cases like this, brothers in many lands can look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. We should be willing to consider that instructions coming from a central monitoring location can be very valuable. The Governing Body have collected experiences from Germany in the WWII era, and from many countries around the world since then. As long as we aren't accepting their words as definite indications that the end is imminently upon us, there is no reason to just reject instructions from those who want to look out for the whole association of brothers.

I have nothing against advices or instructions that can be helpful. 

You speaking about preparations, experience that GB collected from past till now. You mentioned central monitoring location. What is Warwick, sort of Pentagon? Drones, satelites, spies, central intelligence "guided by spirit"? How can human experience, GB experience be helpful for Armageddon? 

For some local wars, disasters and similar turbulence they can have some experience and good preparation. But JW people expecting Armageddon, and all WT efforts are to prepare JW people for Armageddon. Kingdom will destroy all that opposes God. This is message in publication? Or not any more?

[Arauna]

14 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is Warwick, sort of Pentagon? Drones, satelites, spies, central intelligence "guided by spirit"? How can human

You really know how to pump things up in total unreality.

Overreaction (over the top accusation) is not one of the fruit ages of Jehovah's spirit

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. 

Were it not for their concern my Go Kit would be a bag of pretzels.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You really know how to pump things up in total unreality.

Overreaction (over the top accusation) is not one of the fruit ages of Jehovah's spirit

I am not sure just how it happens—have they been goaded into it? I don’t know. But several of these characters have broken out recently into absolute either lunacy or hatred.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How can human experience, GB experience be helpful for Armageddon? 

The GB have earned a level of respect (not among certain detractors here) at least among the majority of Witnesses. Also, hundreds of communications reach Warwick, for example, from all around the world. Branch overseers have visited the Governing Body from around the world, reporting on experiences from those who have gone through various tribulations. The GB wouldn't be expected to share every experience they have ever heard from the field. But they would be expected to draw on some of these experiences, both old and new, as they deem appropriate.

Also, if you have been to Warwick, there is an exhibit called "A People for His Name" which contains many examples of items saved from times of persecution in various countries, including messages smuggled on toilet paper, etc. There are numerous examples of different ways in which brothers very creatively found ways to build up one another's faith during trials.

I don't see this as very helpful specifically for Armageddon, per se, but we do not know exactly what will happen, and neither do they (the GB). But if tomorrow they were to ask the brothers in Buffalo, NY to try to cross over into Toronto, Canada as soon as possible, then pretty full cooperation would be likely, and it might be useful for a purpose that wasn't told to everyone at first. Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY they needed to get away from, or perhaps it was a problem in Toronto, Canada that brothers from Buffalo could help with. (This may not make much sense, but if my example were Chile/Argentina, Georgia/Turkey or Zambia/Zimbabwe then it already might seem plausible.)  

[Srecko Sostar]

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY they needed to get away from, or perhaps it was a problem in Toronto, Canada that brothers from Buffalo could help with. (This may not make much sense, but if my example were Chile/Argentina, Georgia/Turkey or Zambia/Zimbabwe then it already might seem plausible.)  

I have great respect for you, seriously. And it will stay that way.

But need to go in little relaxed tone, atmosphere and say: This examples are possible, of course. But where, when and to who :))) Perhaps angels have more experience and will manage situations in proper way :)) 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY 

The old hen will rightly get mad at me for this one, but:

what in the world could be the problem with Buffalo NY? It has the largest summer garden show in the country. Call that a problem?

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/08/redeeming-americas-armpit.html

[b4ucuhear]

On 1/14/2020 at 3:36 PM, Kosonen said:

Babylon the Great is New York.

"...all the nations have fallen victim...Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins and do not want to receive part of her plagues..." So you are saying that means: "Get out of New York?" What about everyone else on this planet who is affected that doesn't live in New York? Or am I not understanding your thinking here?

I know you are convinced in your own mind about your interpretation, but if, after repeatedly writing the GB about your opinions to "correct" them and teach them (your) right interpretation and they didn't agree with you; the elders in your congregation didn't agree with you (although to be fair you said they weren't willing to entertain much that way); JWs in general don't agree with you; people on this website don't agree with you (and with good reasoning points); and even that other anti-JW posters have a different interpretation than you - you may want to humbly consider the possibility that you may need to rethink the direction you have taken over the last little while - and that you may be wrong. You are essentially asking us to believe that everyone else is wrong and you alone have a pipeline to the "real" truth from God. Most JW's have good reason for believing what they do and even when at times -as seen on this website - we may have questions about certain points we'd like to explore, we still respect the GB/JWs as being where we learned the basic truths we agree with and make JWs different from other religions. 

But for arguments' sake, even if someone accepted some or even all of what you (or other anti-JW posters) consider the truth, then what? What have you got to offer? Leave off being a JW - (which you and other posters here seem to despise and denigrate so much), to go where? To do what? Become part of what? It would be like a driver who picks up an unsuspecting hitchhiker who seems to be going the same way, and then drops them off in the middle of nowhere - with no food, no clothing or shelter.