The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great

[Kosonen]

The book of Revelation informs that after the fall of Babylon the Great, the heavenly resurrection begins. 

Revelation 14:8  Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!”

In verse 13, in the same chapter are we informed that the heavenly reward follows directly at death. So it must happen after the fall of Babylon the Great.

"And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

Then after some unknown relatively short period the remaining approved anointed will be gathered to heaven. This will happen when Jesus arrives with a very spectacular manifestation.

Revelation 1:7  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen

 

Mark 13:24  “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25  and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26  And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27  And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

This is in accord with:

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18  So keep comforting one another with these words.

1 John 2:28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence.

 

Mark 13:33  Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

The book of Revelation informs that after the fall of Babylon the Great, the heavenly resurrection begins. 

Revelation 14:8  Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!”

In verse 13, in the same chapter are we informed that the heavenly reward follows directly at death. So it must happen after the fall of Babylon the Great.

"And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

Then after some unknown relatively short period the remaining approved anointed will be gathered to heaven. This will happen when Jesus arrives with a very spectacular manifestation.

Revelation 1:7  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen

 

Mark 13:24  “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25  and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26  And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27  And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

This is in accord with:

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18  So keep comforting one another with these words.

1 John 2:28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence.

 

Mark 13:33  Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.

 

So are you saying, that you think, the Apostles and others of the dead anointed are not with God and Christ yet ?

Are you suggesting that all the anointed will go to heaven at or after Armageddon ? 

 

[Kosonen]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So are you saying, that you think, the Apostles and others of the dead anointed are not with God and Christ yet ?

Yes, based on Revelation 14:8 and 13 I can not understand it otherwise. 

Also this is in harmony with Revelation 11:18  "But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

 

Daniel 12:1  “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. 2  And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.

[Kosonen]

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Are you suggesting that all the anointed will go to heaven at or after Armageddon ? 

Revelation 19:1,2 tells: They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, 2  because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.”

After that follows the Lamb's marriage feast.

Verse 7 in the same chapter:  "Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself."

At that time all the 144000 have to be in heaven, because they are the Lamb Jesus Christ's bride.

And after that verse says 9  "And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.”

And after this evening meal of the Lamb's marriage Jesus will come  with the heavenly armies and destroy the wicked.

Verses 11-21 are about that. And first the wild beast will be destroyed together with the false prophet.

And next : 21  "But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."

But we do not get a specific time table for the length of all these stages in Revelation chapter 19.

The heavenly resurrection begins after the two witnesses are killed and then after 3 and half days they get the resurrection to heaven. And people in the world will witness their resurrection. Revelation 11 is very specific about them, so they can not symbolize the anointed in general. But instead the two witnesses are litterally two specific witnesses, with a specific mission.

After they have witnessed 1260 days they are suddenly killed by the beast that ascends from the abyss, the UN. And Revelation 11:8 also tells that this will happen in Jerusalem, in the same city where Jesus was killed. 

Could it be that the UN will after it ascends from the abyss be relocated to Jerusalem? 

That will be interesting to see, when the two witnesses begin their witnessing with powerful works, like prophets in the Old Testament.

Yes first before the destruction of the wicked the two prophets will witness for 1260 days. After that they ascend to heaven.

Then in Daniel 8:14 it says: So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

What this means I am not sure about. Could it be that from the begining of the two witnesses witnessing until the destruction of the wkcked it will take 2300 day? 

In that case it would take 2+ years from the destruction of Babylon the Great to the destruction of the final wicked.

Daniel 7:11 gives an interesting detail about the time from when the beast with the arrogant horn is killed to when the rest of the kingdoms are destroyed, a time and a season. Does that some how happen within the 2300 days? I don't understand yet.

Daniel 7:11“I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

 

So according to the scriptures it could take around 2 years as I see it now from the destruction of Babylon the Great to the final destruction of the wicked.

 

[JW Insider]

@Kosonen ,

There are at least two additional scriptural ways to reach this same conclusion. Here is one:

(Revelation 6:7-11) ⁷ When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” ⁸ And I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth. ⁹ When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. ¹⁰ They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ¹¹ And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

Note that everyone who has died must waits until after the four horseman have had their ride of death, war, food shortage, pestilence, wild beasts, etc. They must wait until the full number of their fellow slaves have been killed.

(Revelation 19:1, 2) 19 After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, ² because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.”

(Revelation 19:7-11) . . .Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. ⁸ Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” ⁹ And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” ... ¹¹ I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.

(Revelation 20:3-6) ³ And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while. ⁴ And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

A little more direct and to the point is the scripture you already pointed out from 1 Thess

(1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) . . .because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. . .

Verse 17 can be just as correctly translated as "Then, we the living who are surviving will, at the same time with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air..."

(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) . . .We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, ⁵² in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

And, of course, we also know that since 33 CE Jesus has been ruling as king in the midst of his enemies, riding alongside these death-related horses, until they are finally subdued.

(1 Corinthians 15:25-26)  ²⁵ For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. ²⁶ And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

(Psalm 110:1, 2) . . .“Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”  ² Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

[Kosonen]

14 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Revelation 14:8 "And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

I am wondering if Daniel 12:12 refers to the same happiness?: “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation* and who arrives at the 1,335 days".

Well, maybe we have to wait and come to that time to be sure what that happiness is connected to. But it is a interesting thing to wait for.

[Kosonen]

@JW Insider It is great that you have come to the same conclusion based on those scriptures. In deed it is not so difficult to understand that the heavenly resurrection has not yet occured. But will occure quite near the beginning of the 1000 year reign.

But do you really think the vision of the four horsemen refers to all the time from the first century?

I think the vision of the four horsemen begins when Michel, Jesus Christ has completely cleared Satan and his demons from heaven.

Yes, I believe the war in heaven has recently been going on. I believe it begun soon after September 23rd, 2017. Based on the vision in Revelation 12:1,2 which corresponds to the celestial alignment that occured on that date.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  Please can you answer a few questions VERY simply for me.

1. Does the GB / CCJW teach that the apostles and early anointed ones are in heaven NOW reigning with Christ ?

 Are you saying that You believe that the apostles and early anointed ones are still 'in the grave' awaiting their resurrection ?

2. Does the GB / CCJW teach that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in 1914 ? Or maybe another year ?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ became King in 33 C. E. ? 

3. When do the GB / CCJW teach that the '4 horsemen'  start or started riding ? Was it 1914 ?

When do you believe the 4 horsemen started riding ? Are you saying they started riding in 33 C. E. ?

I only want very simple answers and no need to back it up with scripture. 

@Kosonen If you want to answer these same questions from your own viewpoint then please do. But please keep it simple. 

Having just read the last five comments, a couple of which were big and deep (well for my simple brain anyway) I get very confused. 

@TrueTomHarley and @Anna  Your input would also be welcome. But as above please keep it simple for me. 

I need to know from a JW standpoint what is really being taught right now and what JWs believe from their own viewpoint. 

[JW Insider]

I'll give the simple answers, but I will also add the scriptures below:

The WTS teaches that the apostles and other anointed ones are most likely in heaven, but not yet reigning. I believe they are most likely still waiting in the grave. The WTS teaches that Jesus became king over a kingdom made up of the "congregation" in 33 CE, and King of God's Kingdom in 1914. I believe it was 33 CE on both counts. The WTS teaches that the horses began riding in 1914. I believe it was 33 CE.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

1. Does the GB / CCJW teach that the apostles and early anointed ones are in heaven NOW reigning with Christ ?

Yes and No. And not absolutely. The GB/CCJW do not teach that they are now reigning with Christ, even if they are already in heaven. Originally, they were considered to have been resurrected ("first resurrection") in 1878, and this was moved to 1918. Then, around the year 2000, the WTS began dropping 1918 from almost all Biblical fulfillments.

The current thinking is that the "first resurrection" was most likely prior to 1935, but COULD potentially be as late as the "Great Tribulation," just before Armageddon. 1918 is now only considered "an interesting possibility."

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible

The WTS, in the same article, has indicated that it could happen as late as Armageddon:

*** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
As this journal has often shown, that battle began in 1914. Notice, though, that none of Christ’s anointed followers are said to be with Jesus in that heavenly war. Now look at chapter 17 of Revelation. We read there that after the destruction of “Babylon the Great,” the Lamb will conquer the nations. Then it adds: “Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.” (Revelation 17:5, 14) “Called and chosen and faithful” ones must already have been resurrected if they are to be with Jesus for the final defeat of Satan’s world. Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

 Are you saying that You believe that the apostles and early anointed ones are still 'in the grave' awaiting their resurrection ?

Yes. Paul made a few statements about how others would not already start ruling without them all ruling together. He also made statements about how those resurrected would be called at the last trumpet to be taken to heaven at the same time as those who would survive to the end. Also, note that Paul spoke out against those who were claiming that the resurrection had already occurred. You probably know the scriptures.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Does the GB / CCJW teach that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in 1914 ? Or maybe another year ?

They teach that Jesus became king of a "kingdom" with a small "k" in 33, but King of a "Kingdom" with a capital "K" in 1914. The only time God's Kingdom by Christ is ever spelled with a small "k" is in Colossians:

(Colossians 1:13) . . .He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son. . .

That's the only exception. All other mentions of God's Kingdom by Christ Jesus are spelled with a capital "K" in the NWT.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ became King in 33 C. E. ? 

Yes. The book of Hebrews is very clear that we already have a priest who is of the order of Melchizedek, who was both King and Priest simultaneously. Besides the fact that the Bible calls Jesus "King of Kings," Lord, Messiah, king, and the fact that Paul says that sitting at God's right hand (the right hand of the throne of Majesty) is the equivalent of "ruling as king."

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

When do the GB / CCJW teach that the '4 horsemen'  start or started riding ? Was it 1914 ?

They were definitely still running at full pace in 1914, but Jesus said that they would be running in the first century, too. Starting in the generation prior to Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies:

(Luke 21:9-20) . . .Furthermore, when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified. For these things must take place first, but the end will not occur immediately.” ¹⁰ Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. ¹¹ There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs. ...¹⁹ By your endurance you will preserve your lives. ²⁰ “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.

 

 

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But do you really think the vision of the four horsemen refers to all the time from the first century?

Yes, of course.

(Matthew 11:11-15) . . .Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is ‘E·liʹjah who is to come.’ 15 Let the one who has ears listen.

(Hebrews 1:1-8) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now [in the last days] he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 ... 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

(Galatians 4:4) . . .But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son. . .

6 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I think the vision of the four horsemen begins when Michel, Jesus Christ has completely cleared Satan and his demons from heaven.

So do I.

(Hebrews 2:14) . . .through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,

(Luke 10:18) 18 At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.

(1 John 3:8) . . .For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

(John 16:33) . . .In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.”

(1 John 5:4) . . .because everyone who has been born from God conquers the world. And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith.

Having been cleared from heaven, Satan's focus is on his struggle against Christians:

(Ephesians 6:11, 12) 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.

(1 Timothy 3:6, 7) . . .and fall into the judgment passed on the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from outsiders so that he does not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.

(1 Peter 5:8, 9) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world.

(Revelation 12:12) . . .Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I believe it begun soon after September 23rd, 2017. Based on the vision in Revelation 12:1,2 which corresponds to the celestial alignment that occured on that date.

What alignment was that?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  Thank you for giving your time to answering my questions. 

I would like to understand you more as a person and how you relate to the CCJW. But many things are of course not my business. 

I do note that you have differing opinions to the GB and CCJW on some matters here. 

In your answers to Kosonen 

But do you really think the vision of the four horsemen refers to all the time from the first century?

Yes, of course.

I think the vision of the four horsemen begins when Michel, Jesus Christ has completely cleared Satan and his demons from heaven.

So do I.

I'm getting the feeling here that you are saying that Jesus cleaned Satan and the demons out of heaven in 33 C. E. 

Whereas the CCJW teach it was in 1914. Am I correct in my thinking here ? 

Now I know that it will look as if I'm just finding fault with the GB and the Org, but I'm not. In honesty my heart is passed all that. My heart is heavy with pain and misery because i do not know truth nor do I expect to find truth.  Everyone is allowed their own opinion and on here there are many different opinions. Although I pray to God for help and guidance, it does not happen. Reading God's word does not give me understanding or wisdom. 

But if your understanding of scripture is right and it is in disagreement with the GB, and the CCJW as a whole, then which of you is receiving the guidance of holy spirit ?

Neither God nor Christ would work against themselves or against each other. So I cannot understand it when many people that 'seem' to be sincere and seem to be looking for truth arrive at opposing results. 

If a person is to preach and teach, firstly they have to know truth themselves. Therefore I could not preach and teach, because i do not know truth from misunderstandings.