The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great

[JW Insider]

On 3/21/2020 at 1:28 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

I say in the third person of myself.

God knows if he is a trinity or not.

(John 10:34) . . .Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?

I hope you didn't get confused by that scripture. 😉

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

(John 10:34) . . .Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?

I hope you didn't get confused by that scripture. 😉

 

Can one really say something about the Trinity in the third person and expect to be taken seriously? I am still trying to punch my way out of that paper bag.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

To make visualization of that easier ... Imagine yourself sitting on a front porch, and you notice a lost earthworm wiggling it's way across the concrete (or wood, as the case may be ...).

Now .... imagine  taking the edge of a tin can lid, and cutting it into three equal parts, so it may have friends.

See?

[Witness]

Because I believe in Christ’s words and his thousand year reign beginning in the first century, I believe the “144,000” are not awaiting a resurrection, but reign with Christ now .

John 5:24 -  Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Mark 8:35 - "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of me and the gospel will save it.”

“Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”   Rev 20:4

After the thousand years have ended, the remaining anointed are tested; (Rev 16:13,14;20:7-9) with some receiving life, others not.  (Foolish and wise virgins)  Rev 12:4; Mat 25:1,2

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.” Rev 20:5

(Does the Wt teach that there is another resurrection AFTER a literal thousand years have passed in the Kingdom?  Isn’t the whole idea of the “thousand years” teaching, is to have everyone resurrected, reach perfection and then tested by Satan? )

So, why are the remnant of anointed in the last days, considered dead? 

“And you, although you were dead in your trespasses and sins, ² in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, ³ among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as also the rest of them were.

⁴ But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, ⁵ and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), ⁶ and raised us together and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus  Eph 2:1-6

As long as one follows men, who act upon their will of the flesh and mind, by leading one into false teachings (absolutely not sourced with Christ), we cannot receive eternal life.

Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.    For if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.  Rom 5:12,17

“Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.  John 5:24”

 

Jesus told his disciples,

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28

The twelve tribes of Israel are the members of the 144,000/Temple of God.  Rev 7:4; 21:12  There will be no judging of Christs’s kings after Armageddon, since this completed Bride will be united with Jesus by then.  Rev 3:12; 21:2  This judging has occurred to each individual anointed one over the 2,000 year period since Jesus sat on his thrown next to God.  Ps 110:1,2

 

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

“For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he was raised up on the third day according to the Scriptures;  and that he appeared to Ceʹphas, and then to the Twelve.  After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death.  After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.  But last of all he appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely.”

 

Paul was “late to the party” so-to-speak. But better late than never in his case!

 

I seem to be quite late to this thread, and I only have two cents, but Jesus says it’s enough…

 

So true that the scriptures show the resurrection of the anointed hasn’t happened yet. They will all go to the marriage together during the great tribulation at the appointed time. The dead anointed will be resurrected and just like Jesus was seen on earth after his resurrection before his ascension, so the same with the anointed who are resurrected.

 

On 3/19/2020 at 9:37 AM, JW Insider said:

The WTS teaches that Jesus became king over a kingdom made up of the "congregation" in 33 CE, and King of God's Kingdom in 1914. I believe it was 33 CE on both counts. The WTS teaches that the horses began riding in 1914. I believe it was 33 CE.

 

Regarding “the kingdom of his beloved son…”

 

The “kingdom of the son of his love” is just another way of saying “God’s Kingdom” or “the kingdom of the heavens” and it didn’t start in 33 CE or in 1914 because we don’t know the day or the hour Jesus takes the throne. We will know the kingdom is place once the Devil is cast out of heaven and we see the great tribulation begin on earth. 

 

The context in Colossians chapter one shows that as regards “the kingdom of God’s beloved son” Paul was talking about a future time: “We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love you have for all the holy ones because of the hope that is being reserved for you in the heavens. You previously heard about this hope…” 

 

It was “hope” because it hadn’t happened yet. (“…while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.  For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it?  But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.”)

 

In Colossians chapter one Paul goes on to say…”and may you be strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may endure fully with patience and joy, as you thank the Father, who made you qualify to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light.”

 

Being qualified to share in the inheritance is not the same as actually having received that inheritance yet. (Elsewhere Paul says, “have you already begun ruling as kings?” They had not.)

 

Then in Colossians 1:13 Paul says: “He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son…”

 

Paul was not saying that at present the anointed were in a “love” kingdom. He was not saying that some mini-kingdom began at 33 CE. Paul was saying that in the future, it was as good as done, the Kingdom with the 144,000 faithful anointed and Jesus, it was a sure thing.

 

“If, however, you were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God.  Keep your minds fixed on the things above, not on the things on the earth.  For you died, and your life has been hidden with the Christ in union with God.  When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.”

 

The transfiguration provided a glimpse, a foregleam, of Jesus’ glory in the future kingdom, and the anointed ones will join him in glory but not while they are on earth as imperfect humans. The anointed ares not in the kingdom arrangement ruling as kings until the marriage of the Lamb has taken place. 

 

“Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and choosing sure for yourselves, for if you keep on doing these things, you will by no means ever fail.  In fact, in this way you will be richly granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

[John 12.24to28]

On 3/18/2020 at 7:03 PM, Kosonen said:

Yes first before the destruction of the wicked the two prophets will witness for 1260 days. After that they ascend to heaven.

Then in Daniel 8:14 it says: So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

What this means I am not sure about. Could it be that from the begining of the two witnesses witnessing until the destruction of the wkcked it will take 2300 day? 

In that case it would take 2+ years from the destruction of Babylon the Great to the destruction of the final wicked.

Daniel 7:11 gives an interesting detail about the time from when the beast with the arrogant horn is killed to when the rest of the kingdoms are destroyed, a time and a season. Does that some how happen within the 2300 days? I don't understand yet.

 

The UN is an extension of the horn, from Greece to US/UK to UN. It is the UN during the great tribulation who will harass the anointed.

 

While @Kosonen seems to have gotten stumbled by embracing some astrology stuff, he was right about the timing of certain events being related to the 2,300 mornings and evenings, only the 2,300 mornings and evenings are actually 1,150 days (since a day equals 1/2 day plus 1/2 day…or a day equals one morning plus one evening). That fits into the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation timeline.

 

On 3/18/2020 at 7:03 PM, Kosonen said:

That will be interesting to see, when the two witnesses begin their witnessing with powerful works, like prophets in the Old Testament.

 

Regarding the two witnesses…

 

The “two witnesses” of Revelation are illustrative of the anointed remnant during the time of the great tribulation when they do a specific preaching work.

 

Jesus’ transfiguration pictures him with “Elijah and Moses”, the figurative two witnesses, after Jesus takes the throne.

 

Zechariah’s vision of the two olive trees and the two lampstands also illustrates the job of the two witnesses.

 

Jesus told his disciples that John the Baptist was an “Elijah”, however Revelation was written after John the Baptist, which shows the “two witnesses” are not two literal people, it is figurative.

 

The timeframe of the fulfillment regarding the two witnesses is shown by these verses: “But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.  I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”  These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.”

 

The “two witnesses” of Revelation 11 do not appear until the great tribulation begins. They are identifiable by means of their actions during the great tribulation.

 

Plagues in Egypt showed the false gods to be false. Moses was used as God’s representative for calling out those plagues.

 

Elijah called down plagues also to prove the false gods to be false, fire from heaven or shutting up the rain. Elijah was God’s representative for calling out those plagues.

 

Other parts of Revelation detail different aspects of the plagues that will take place during the great tribulation. The rulers of this system will be seen to be false gods. The leaders of religious institutions will be seen to be false gods. They will not shed their light. Their “life-giving waters” and works will be exposed as bloodguilty. 

 

The two witnesses work with the myriads of angels in this plaguing as is seen in the following verses from Revelation chapter 9: ““Untie the four angels who are bound at the great river Eu·phraʹtes.”  And the four angels who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year were untied to kill a third of the people. The number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads; I heard the number of them.  And this is how I saw the horses in the vision and those seated on them: They had fire-red and hyacinth-blue and sulfur-yellow breastplates, and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths.  A third of the people were killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the sulfur that came out of their mouths. For the authority of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with these they inflict harm. But the rest of the people who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands; they did not stop worshipping the demons and the idols of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. And they did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their sexual immorality nor of their thefts.”

 

Those plagued are not literally “killed” but rather some become dead to their false worship, just as the plagues by Moses and Elijah helped some people to stop worshipping false gods in the past.

 

“So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts.  For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation.  For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit…”

[John 12.24to28]

On 3/19/2020 at 4:34 AM, Kosonen said:

@JW Insider It is great that you have come to the same conclusion based on those scriptures. In deed it is not so difficult to understand that the heavenly resurrection has not yet occured. But will occure quite near the beginning of the 1000 year reign.

But do you really think the vision of the four horsemen refers to all the time from the first century?

I think the vision of the four horsemen begins when Michel, Jesus Christ has completely cleared Satan and his demons from heaven

 

Regarding the four horsemen of Revelation chapter 6…

 

@Kosonen was right about the horsemen not riding until after Jesus takes the throne, but part of the ride of the first horseman also includes Michael tossing Satan out of heaven. The four horsemen do not represent literal earthly war or literal earthly famine or literal earthly pestilence. The context shows they don’t start their ride until the great tribulation begins.

 

Chapter 7 says: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 

 

Chapter 5 depicts the anointed as being sealed in vision since the 24 elders are there in the vision, all 24 means it is complete, all the anointed having been born and sealed in that part of the vision when Jesus as the Lamb receives the scroll with the seven seals.

 

In chapter 6, the horses are similar to Zechariah’s vision with the four chariots. They are spirit creatures in theocratic warfare. They do not represent literal famine or literal war. There has always been literal famine and literal war. Jesus is the first rider because the context is once he takes the throne as king (which wasn’t in 33 CE and it wasn’t in 1914). Jesus said his way would bring a figurative sword, dividing father against son and mother against daughter in law, because some take a stand for the truth and some oppose truth. The Bible at times also talks about a famine for hearing the words of Jehovah, and spiritual pestilence, figurative gangrene. The other chapters of Revelation that describe the plagues are referring to people who are “killed” as to false worship, some wake up and give praise to Jehovah.

 

As soon as Jesus takes the throne, he wages war on the falsehoods in this system of things, the false gods, the false leaders, the false institutions, the false lights of the world.

 

“And I heard the voice out of heaven speaking again with me and saying: “Go, take the opened scroll that is in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the earth.” I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll. He said to me: “Take it and eat it up, and it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet like honey.”  I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet like honey, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter.  And they said to me: “You must prophesy again about peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.”

[John 12.24to28]

There is still a lot of work to do once the great tribulation begins. When Babylon the Great is destroyed, all the false doctrines in Jehovah’s organization will also be removed. The 1914 doctrine will be gone. The way the disfellowshipping doctrine is improperly taught will be done away with. The “Faithful and Discreet Slave” teaching will be removed. The light will be bright and Jesus and the angels will be at the forefront of the work. A great crowd from the nations will join us during the great tribulation after the plagues when they see how Jehovah is the true God. There is still a ton of preaching to do, even after the Bethels are attacked by the UN. (Moses and Elijah didn’t have a Bethel or special publications to be able to preach. Jehovah was with them. He will be with us in the work too.)

 

It will be 3 1/2 years that the UN rules and the great tribulation lasts. (Also known as 42 months or the appointed times or a time times and half a time.)

 

At certain foretold points from when that tribulation begins, (five months, 1,150 days, 1,260 days, 1,290 days, 1,335 days) there will be specific events as foretold, such as the cutting short of the attack on religion, the refinement of the organization complete, the resurrection of the anointed, the marriage of the Lamb, and the final battle of Armageddon.

 

Praise Jehovah, the One who tells the finale from the beginning.

[Pudgy]

Some things are very reasonable, and some things are very Biblical.

Hopefully they are the same things, but so far, human interpretation has left a lot to be desired. 

For the past 2,000 plus years EVERYBODY. who has tried it has been wrong.

Since I have ABSOLUTELY no power to change ANYTHING, or avoid all that is coming, I will be content to watch it …. Whatever it is …. As it unfolds before my eyes.

I have a window on my doghouse, with a 360 degree view!

[John 12.24to28]

The Window Test - Practical wisdom! ☺️

 

"For Jehovah himself gives wisdom;

From his mouth come knowledge and discernment.  

He treasures up practical wisdom for the upright;

He is a shield for those walking in integrity."

 

On 2/15/2023 at 1:42 PM, Pudgy said:

I use the “Window Test” for such things as invisible heavenly wars...

 

On 2/15/2023 at 4:38 PM, Guest said:

Noah walked with God. Noah was a man of practical wisdom. He also did a window test.

 

"So at the end of 40 days, Noah opened the window that he had made in the ark and sent out a raven; it continued flying outside and returning, until the waters dried off the earth."

 

Noah knew what time it was by looking out the window...

 

 

"But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near."

 

We'll keep "looking out the window" until he gets here! 😊

 

“The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”

[Pudgy]

It’s “not the hill I want to die on”. … and not even the hill I want to pick a fight on. 

In fact, since my concept of “Heaven” is on the other side of the Big Bang … where there is true eternity, and Jehovah can understandably be “from everlasting to everlasting”, truly eternal because there is no arrow of time like here in OUR Univetse … a war in heaven that is completely invisible, based on dates that are ambiguous, and math that has NOT predicted the future, so far ….. no longer attracts my attention.

Remember, this Universe is ONLY 13.8 billion years old, and Jehovah has ALWAYS existed … because in his Universe time happens all at once, and “elapsed time” does not exist.

It’s my best, educated guess, anyway ….

If I am right or wrong, absolutely NOTHING CHANGES.

[John 12.24to28]

"“If a person develops a boil on his skin and it heals, but in the place of the boil a white swelling or a reddish-white blotch has developed, he must then show himself to the priest.  The priest will examine it, and if it appears to be deeper than the skin and its hair has turned white, the priest will then declare him unclean. It is the disease of leprosy that has broken out in the boil.  But if the priest examines it and sees that there is no white hair in it and it is not deeper than the skin and appears faded, the priest will then quarantine him for seven days. And if it has clearly spread on the skin, the priest will then declare him unclean. It is a disease. But if the blotch stays in one place and has not spread, it is only the inflammation from the boil, and the priest will declare him clean."

 

Some boils are clean and some boils are unclean. Some have Legions of boils.

 

(Hello, @Boyle. Have we met before?  Something about you is familiar. Hmm...)

 

I hate to burst your bubble @Boyle - so I won't. Too messy. 

 

Jehovah will fix everything eventually.

 

"“Come, and let us return to Jehovah, 

For he has torn us to pieces, but he will heal us.  

He struck us, but he will bind our wounds."

 

Praise Jehovah.