Furuli's new book: Is any of it right? Useful? Like Franz?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Billy the Kid = CC goes on and on like a parrot saying the same things over and over, trying to convince himself that he is right.  And he drags it back a hundred years into the Bible Student era, which @Arauna is opposed to.  But then @Arauna  drags it back even further to the Sanhedrin.......... To prove what ?

With all your burblings and pretence of a governing body in the first century, the truth is that it was the Apostle Paul that took the 'word' to the nations, AND it was the Apostle Paul that wrote the Letters to the Congregations. And he didn't go up to Jerusalem for the first THREE years of his ministry. So he was not influenced by any human 'governing body' at all. Paul received his direction directly from the resurrected Jesus Christ. 

True servants of God do not want independence from God, they want to serve God through Christ. 

So this stupid idea of 'you have to be a JW to serve God' is hogwash at the moment. Maybe in the future when that organisation is cleaned out then God through Christ may use it, but not right now. Maybe the GB are being examined by Christ, as Christ has the authority to judge them. Maybe Christ will replace the GB and clean the org' to make it clean and usable. 

Arauna and others seems to think that the CCJW / GB / Watchtower 'created' the core scriptures and beliefs. Please don't be so puffed up, those scriptures were written long before the Org ever existed AND others believed those scriptures before. And even now others outside of the CCJW believe such things. I think @Space Merchant is proof of this point. So please don't pretend that only JWs have these beliefs.

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 6/7/2020 at 12:03 PM, JW Insider said:

Naturally there is often a reason for these [historical] disparities, and the reason is of interest to me.

I think it is a combination of several reasons. de Vienne offers one when she speculates that they are “incurious as to their own history.” They are doers more than contemplators of the past. They lead with the heart more than the head. There is a plank devoted to such things, but it is not a rudder that steers the ship.

@Arauna advances another reason—it must be in the other thread—that to a certain degree, history is unknowable, written by the victors, modified over the years by those of myriad agendas, and much of the original data is lost forever. Thus, because they are doers more than thinkers, they research the past, come up with what seems tight enough, and say (as one local sportscaster used to say) “that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.” To do otherwise is to yield to thinkers who frequently not engage in doing if you light a stick of dynamite under them. “God gives his holy spirit to those doing his will,” they say, not those writing about it. 

It is a scholar-light approach that infuriates scholars too caught up in the suppose ascendancy of their own discipline—scholars who simply assume takeover rights. They get them in many venues—and the greater world offers testimony has to what happens when the world’s scholarship runs the show—you would think Srecko would reflect upon that before he carries on about how essential higher education is—but they do not get them in Jehovah’s organization. Once in awhile they get sent to the doghouse, but only when they howl too much. 

I say, I have no problem with this,” once I get over the problem I have with it—for I come from a world of readers and books. Still, I notice that they don’t add up to much when they are poured into the world vat, and may collectively even bring that world to its knees. I yield to Someone whose ways just might be higher than mine. He gives his spirit to those obeying him as leader.

In general, when I hear any viewpoint of challenge, I look for deeds at least as much as ideas. Frequently, there are none, and the remarks can largely be dismissed on that account. That is my take on what Paul says on the prospect of confronting the self-styled superfine apostles of his day—‘when I see them, I will get to know not just their words—anyone has them and many have them in great abundance—but I want to get to know their power—their deeds. 

That’s why when Matthew4 5784 or someone, oozing malice, launches a new topic entitled: “Honestly—No Malice Here—But Let us Speak Earnestly About the Wrong-doing of the Witness Leaders,” I say, “Have you actually done anything besides quit? Do you have anything to show for yourself besides grumbling? ” Just any malcontent is going to throw a tirade about something I hold dear and expect me to engage in earnest debate with them? I don’t think so. I wait for JWI to do it on the basis of addressing the points, not the person—and Cesar with a flamethrower to do it on another basis—and then several pages in, after the original malice has been obscured, I override my better judgement and jump into the fray.

The saying goes that ‘if you can do something, you do it. If you can’t, you critique it.‘ Absent someone’s “power”—their good deeds, their honest track record—I do not take them too seriously. They are critiquing—and the reason just may be that they ar capable of nothing else. At least Rolf has a track record—how hot it is and what has been allowed to go stone cold was my first initial question about his book. 

The saying is often escalated to a usually (though not always) unnecessarily cynical, “and if you REALLY can’t do it, you teach it.” Here we come to Dr. Gene Huang, who did not fit the pattern. He taught at Cornell, and was for years, among the most published authorities on statistics. His work provides mathematical support for scientists who study gene function. He became a Witness in the late 1990’s.

I speculate in Tom Irregardless and Me that after a dozen years or so, when he has proved himself stable, he or someone like him is invited to look over our science offerings and contribute an update if they see fit. Many brothers seem to think that at Bethel, they assign such material to the Witness who did really well in high-school science, straight A’s!—he or she holed up for a few weeks, and “out came this book” on creation blowing the cover off evolution. 

No. Plainly it will be someone like Brother Huang “bringing his gift to the altar” upon invitation. However, will his work silence the critics? You know it won’t. The writings of evolutionists and those who favor “intelligent design” would fill a library so large that even @The Librarian (that old hen) would throw in the towel. So they take Gene Hwang’s book at Bethel—he is a heavy-hitter—and say: “That’s our story and we’re sticking to it,”—same as they do with history. Do other “scholars” debate their own competing version? “Yeah—well—we’ll see,” they say, as they envision a headline in the paper that they have seen so many times before: “Everything You Thought You Knew About Such-and-Such is Wrong!”

 

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I think @Space Merchant is proof of this point.

Pardon, I do not understand what you are conveying in this regard. My only issue is I do not like misconception and falsehood of any subject, this includes faith communities. You can agree/disagree with someone of that community, but to speak of something that is misleading and or off the rails, that demands a refute. Outside of that my biggest focus and concern is mainstream Christendom, and the ill use of their own exegesis when it comes to Scripture. Also I am a truther, so I take misinformation very seriously too.

That being said, the fact you mentioned Bill The Kid and referring to him as a parrot.... Relation to John Butler? He refereed to me as a parrot several times when I corrected him on history, race, child abuse statistics by race/sex to which he deemed me racist when I simply use facts straight from the F.B.I. (Federal Bureau of Investigation) itself, and Strong's and Tradition vs. Bible Teachings.

Mr. Butler's engine runs on emotion to the point he evades facts, and the last time I responded to him was concerning an issue, to which he has never updated anyone of of us on regarding a CoCA, something, as I mentioned in my solutions, which is quite difficult to combat even by means of the Law of the Land in the UK (even in the US).

 

[Space Merchant]

@César Chávez Pretty much, a Christian congregation itself is the church. The church is the people, and the head of the church is the Christ.

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

those scriptures were written long before the Org ever existed AND others believed those scriptures before.

As  you know full well but your dishonesty will not allow you to ACKNOWLEDGE it --- all other Christian religions  read the bible and yet did not fathom out that the soul is not immortal....... and hence they do not understand the ransom sacrifice.

No wonder Jehovah did not use them to preach the message in the last days to the entire world Math 24:14

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The Watchtower GB do not consider themselves above the brethren, they preach and teach alongside the brethren. They understand their place, and glorify God for sending his son to be our savior. This is why, they understand they will be held more accountable if they lead God's sheep astray. They honor that responsibility, they don't run away from it. They will not deny Jesus 3 times just because of internal pressure or outside influence. They are God's servants to the end.

They will not deny Jesus 3 times ...

But they will deny, renounce OWN Theology,  more than 3 times for the same doctrine.

And at the same time they will claim that their theology has always been the theology of Jesus ....each time, at each change. :))

[Witness]

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They will not deny Jesus 3 times just because of internal pressure or outside influence. They are God's servants to the end.

They already have denied Jesus "three times", since they deny the anointed members of his Body.  If the members are silenced, so is the Head.  A working body requires the mobility of all of its members.  Jesus expects his members to work in the capacity God gave them.  (1 Cor chapter 12)  He expects them to listen to him and not men who appear to be equal, but are in fact, proving their hate for those in Christ; thus showing no respect for their head, Jesus Christ. 

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.  For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,  not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.  1 John 3:10,11

Murder these days, is called disfellowshipping; a hypocritical act of "love".  Rev 13:11,12,15  The GB has created a guillotine machine of rules where any who reject them are easily "killed" by their army of henchmen.  

Nowhere in Jesus' words, does it say that one member of his body has the ability to cut off the other from his own body.  

That would be God's job.

With the power bestowed on them by the GB, their henchman fully apply their power to "kill" God's priesthood/"living stones.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17

“Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.  Dan 8:25

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

@Witness That statement does not make anyone correlation to any sense. To deny Jesus is to deviate from what he teaches, to what his God said unto him, unto the people [you]. As pointed out before the notion of Excommunication has indeed started with the Christ, this was not engineered by any man, as the Bible shows.

Also you are missing verses again, just wanted to point that out, for possible the 33rd time it seems.

[Witness]

4 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

To deny Jesus is to deviate from what he teaches, to what his God said unto him, unto the people

Exactly.

A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.  Luke 22:24-27

This is the pattern the Watchtower GB and elders, follow.  They have ignored, denied the words of Christ.

 

[Witness]

8 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

@Witness That statement does not make anyone correlation to any sense. To deny Jesus is to deviate from what he teaches, to what his God said unto him, unto the people [you]. As pointed out before the notion of Excommunication has indeed started with the Christ, this was not engineered by any man, as the Bible shows.

Also you are missing verses again, just wanted to point that out, for possible the 33rd time it seems.

So glad you keep tabs on me.  I didn't realize it has been 33 times!  Who keeps tabs on you?    

[Space Merchant]

22 minutes ago, Witness said:

So glad you keep tabs on me.  I didn't realize it has been 33 times!  Who keeps tabs on you?    

I always keep tabs it just comes from memory. Even on myself in order to recall something, hence my memory is as thick as the skin of a rhino. Others have done the same, in my regard. Anyways, But you have to convey the statement correctly otherwise there will be confusion. You should know this because the both of us stated the same thing in the past, but now here it is different. So in regards to the latter, the claim of denying of which you provided is in err.

28 minutes ago, Witness said:

A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.  Luke 22:24-27

I believe I lectured you in the past of what a Benefactor is. A Benefactor (Biblical term, not the modern English term, yet somewhat similar), well the word used in that verse comes from the word (Ancient Greek: Εὐεργέτης, Euergétēs), which means that an individual who is doing good to and or for others. The term is associated with honorable titles for important people, for instance, a Prince, for these people are recognized for their contributions and the like. These Benefactors are the types to take a lead among the people, however, it should not be confused those among the Christ, to mimic as if they are and or align themselves with world rulers. Faithful servants of the Lord are the opposite. They do not partake to be like rulers of the world, but rather, they focus on what it means to be a Christian, a follower of the Christ and lead by example and lesson, as the marginal references in the verses you provided provides context.

In terms of ministering and serving, this citation from verse 26 gives the answer. Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24, which describes the work of those holding religious office within the Christian Church Congregation. We had this conversation parallel conversation on this before, to which you accused me of being misogynistic for agreeing with Scripture.

That being said, to deem them as benefactors in this regard when they are not is a misapplication of the verse, therefore, your mixing of verses to fit your own exegesis, as I have and the other alleged chosen one this forum call you out on. This is especially the fact you are dealing with modern day Restorationist, for regardless if they are striving to be of the early church and or lacking, Restorationist will never be caught dead granted of what you claim. It is in-bedded in their Christology after all.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Nowhere in Jesus' words, does it say that one member of his body has the ability to cut off the other from his own body.  

Clearly, but this is not the case, and you make this claim when the latter is the opposite, hence why I pointed out it does not make any sense. This goes back to our early discussion about the Spiritual Stones of the Spiritual House, which what you said there contradicts present day regarding the matter. I do not see as to how and why you fancy misapplication.

That being said, my question to you is what if you were in the had said something that had denied even what the Christ as taught, should we look at you as the same, that is, using your claim? Because anything can easily be linked should you say what is not true in regards to question.

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 (Ancient Greek: Εὐεργέτης, Euergétēs), which means that an individual who is doing good to and or for others. The term is associated with honorable titles for important people, for instance, a Prince, for these people are recognized for their contributions and the like. These Benefactors are the types to take a lead among the people, however, it should not be confused those among the Christ, to mimic as if they are and or align themselves with world rulers. Faithful servants of the Lord are the opposite. They do not partake to be like rulers of the world, but rather, they focus on what it means to be a Christian, a follower of the Christ and lead by example and lesson, as the marginal references in the verses you provided provides context.

Thank you. 

"honorable titles for important people" - the meaning of "faithful and discreet slave" has become very important to JWs.  Without them, who would supply them, "food at the proper time"?

"recognized for their contributions and the like." - "We also need to appreciate Jehovah’s provision of “the faithful and discreet slave,” the body of spirit-anointed Christians through whom he provides spiritual food for the household of faith. (Matt. 24:45)"  be study 22 pp. 153-156 -

"These Benefactors are the types to take a lead among the people" - "They recognize, however, that Christ is using a small group of anointed Christian men as a Governing Body to lead and direct his disciples on earth."w10 9/15 pp. 25-29 -

"it should not be confused those among the Christ, to mimic as if they are and or align themselves with world rulers."   The GB are entrenched in politics, they practice the opposite of  Jesus taught.  He never said to his followers to use the system to gain selfish advantage to promote their empire. No, these men are not "among the Christ".  I'm sorry to say, that these blind men would not consider you as such, as well.

The scripture is a perfect application of the dual rulership in the WT.