WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"

[xero]

41 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

 

HF aka Holly Folk from Cesnur (strange organization indeed) speaking about "family abuse" inside JW organization/congregations as something that is real problem in WTJWorg. She explained/stated how cases of CSA in WTJWorg are not "institutional". Let see. 

How many parents / guardians have committed CSA to their children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard.
How many JW members regardless of status (rank and file, MS, elders) have committed CSA over other people's children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard.

In both cases, the WTJWorg institution became involved in "family" relations or "private" relations between members and decided that such a case was within the jurisdiction of WTJWorg, a "religious-business institution". Moreover, WTJWorg has over time established a “procedure” or “policy” on how such matters should be dealt WITHOUT involving “secular institutions”.
So please, who wants to tell stories here and blur the eyes of others? HF and Cesnur for sure. Who else?

On the other hand, if WTJWorg has had a problem with “domestic violence and family abuse” to such an extent throughout all these decades, than we need to seriously ask - where has the “WTJWorg institution” failed?

Where has this been eliminated? I have yet to read of an organization anywhere where this has been eliminated.

All these things are red-herrings. These are important issues, but after years of deliberation I've considered that the hoping and waiting on Jehovah can create in some people so much stress and so much dissonance that they'd rather stop hoping and waiting. Hoping becomes for them another promise which they feel after years will ultimately fail.

Believe me, I understand the feeling. But the organization isn't the issue, which after a time we realize from viewing many who leave for one reason stay away from God altogether (if they don't narrowly reinterpret things into yet another private expectation).

We're all of us waiting on Jehovah and I'm as impatient as the next. (But who wasn't feeling all these things over the centuries?). I suspect this is why so many flock to organizations which promise a direct contact with the divine. You see this in charismatic churches, in people who dabble in the occult, people who look to new age religions, Ancient Aliens, anything which can provide them with that direct contact with the divine (even if that 'divine' turns out to be demonic).

I understand all that. Quite frankly, I'd get myself nailed up to a cross myself if I thought I could get five minutes verification of what's going on.

I don't do that, but I will go for a ten mile run and a dip in the ocean.

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How many JW members regardless of status (rank and file, MS, elders) have committed CSA over other people's children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard.

How many? No more than anywhere in the overall population, and probably much less. It is almost always rank and file, in contrast to all other institutions on the hot seat whose leaders themselves were the abusers, and no mechanism even exists for tracking the rank and file.

What I much appreciate is HF’s righteous indignation that this vendetta from exJW’s redirects rage from child sexual abuse towards what is essentially a non-factor, or even a mitigating one, just to satisfy their hate. Thus, those exJWs serve to short-circuit legitimate efforts to curtail it, diverting resources. In pursuit of their greater goal, they actually show themselves friends of CSA.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, xero said:

Believe me, I understand the feeling. But the organization isn't the issue, which after a time we realize from viewing many who leave for one reason stay away from God altogether

Lets examine this :

Believe me, I understand the feeling.   Do you ? What feeling do you understand ?  Being abused as a child ? Being called a liar by the Elders of a congragation ?  Being D/fed for complaining about yourself or your child being sexually abused ? So which of those things do you understand ? 

But the organization isn't the issue That is your own opinon. My opinion and the opinion of many other people is that the Org Leaders over many years are to blame.

which after a time we realize from viewing many who leave for one reason stay away from God altogether

I would suggest that JWs do not have any idea what 'many who leave' do after they have left.  As the ones that leave are totally shunned then how do JWs know what they are doing. Do you go around spying on ex-JWs ? Do you know if ex-JWs pray or study the Bible in their homes, in private ?

TTH uses this idea lot, but does he go spying on ex-JWS, I doubt it.  This stupid brainwashing from the ORG, that people who leave the Org turn against God. And JWs fall for this brainwashing. Oh dear. 

10 hours ago, xero said:

We're all of us waiting on Jehovah and I'm as impatient as the next

Are you impatient ? I'm not. The longer it goes on, maybe the better.  It gives more time for God, through Christ, to sort out a clean organsation to serve Him.  It also gives more people time to serve God properly. And, if conditons get much worse it may help other people to see the contrast between good and evil. So, more time can be a good thing. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is almost always rank and file, in contrast to all other institutions on the hot seat whose leaders themselves were the abusers,

It has been proven many times that Elders and Ministerial Servants have sexually abused young children in the congregatoins. But TTH is in denial. However TTH points at other religions and blames them, BUT TTH also has said that other religions don't have any records of such things ??????????  So, there are no records but TTH 'knows' that the leaders of other religions are to blame.  Whereas there ARE records in each country, of the JW sexual abuse. Oh dear, where are the GB and their Lawyers hiding that 25 year Pedophile database ??? And why are they hiding it ? 

 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What I much appreciate is HF’s righteous indignation that this vendetta from exJW’s redirects rage from child sexual abuse towards what is essentially a non-factor just to satisfy their hate. 

I've no idea who this HF is. But, TTH seems to like them. 

Vendetta. Um, is that what Jesus had against the Pharisees ?   I think not.

I do worry, seriously, about how JWs have had their 'natural affection' switched off by the GB and it's Org. How JWs can treat victims of CSA as just being collateral damage. All the 'dirt' swept under the carpet just to keep the Watchtower / Org 'alive'. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 Thus, those exJWs serve to short-circuit legitimate efforts to curtail it, diverting resources.

Really ??? I think not. I think it's ex-JWs that have brought it out into the open. They have helped to get it into the courtrooms. Ex JWs have been the reason that the Shepherding book has been revised, though of course you won't admit to that. Ex-JWs opened up the biggest 'can of worms' possible in the JW  Org. And that is why people like TTH and others hate ex JWs. 

[xero]

26 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Lets examine this :

Believe me, I understand the feeling.   Do you ? What feeling do you understand ?  Being abused as a child ? Being called a liar by the Elders of a congragation ?  Being D/fed for complaining about yourself or your child being sexually abused ? So which of those things do you understand ? 

But the organization isn't the issue That is your own opinon. My opinion and the opinion of many other people is that the Org Leaders over many years areto blame.

which after a time we realize from viewing many who leave for one reason stay away from God altogether

I would suggest that JWs do not have any idea what 'many who leave' do after they have left.  As the ones that leave are totally shunned then how do JWs know what they are doing. Do you go around spying on ex-JWs ? Do you know if ex-JWs pray or study the Bible in their homes, in private ?

TTH uses this idea lot, but does he go spying on ex-JWS, I doubt it.  This stupid brainwashing from the ORG, that people who leave the Org turn against God. And JWs fall for this brainwashing. Oh dear. 

Are you impatient ? I'm not. The longer it goes on, maybe the better.  It gives more time for God, through Christ, to sort out a clean organsation to serve Him.  It also gives more people time to serve God properly. And, if conditons get much worse it may help other people to see the contrast between good and evil. So, more time can be a good thing. 

It has been proven many times that Elders and Ministerial Servants have sexually abused young children in the congregatoins. But TTH is in denial. However TTH points at other religions and blames them, BUT TTH also has said that other religions don't have any records of such things ??????????  So, there are no records but TTH 'knows' that the leaders of other religions are to blame.  Whereas there ARE records in each country, of the JW sexual abuse. Oh dear, where are the GB and their Lawyers hiding that 25 year Pedophile database ??? And why are they hiding it ? 

 

I've no idea who this HF is. But, TTH seems to like them. 

Vendetta. Um, is that what Jesus had against the Pharisees ?   I think not.

I do worry, seriously, about how JWs have had their 'natural affection' switched off by the GB and it's Org. How JWs can treat victims of CSA as just being collateral damage. All the 'dirt' swept under the carpet just to keep the Watchtower / Org 'alive'. 

Really ??? I think not. I think it's ex-JWs that have brought it out into the open. They have helped to get it into the courtrooms. Ex JWs have been the reason that the Shepherding book has been revised, though of course you won't admit to that. Ex-JWs opened up the biggest 'can of worms' possible in the JW  Org. And that is why people like TTH and others hate ex JWs. 

This is a lot of energy. It doesn't not seem like what it appears to be - a lot of pain being expressed. Others have said and will likely say again that any trust in humans is misplaced trust, but none of it is convincing that it's the same sort of thing for which institutions have been convicted.

I asked whether there was any group untouched by this sort of thing, and the absence of a response means you understand that there isn't.

Others have pointed out how imagining that the organization is untouched by human imperfection is imagining an impossibility, and that idolizing it is a mistake. I've seen it done for years, but usually from those who wish to lord their relative positions over others.

As a christian, you have no authority other than that of a fellow brother or sister and no further responsibility either. You have to adhere to your conscience and if you don't or haven't that's on you. If an elder or even a body of elders has done something of this sort, that's on them.

I have and others who likewise consider themselves to be faithful test every expression ostensibly inspired or otherwise to see if it washes with scripture - if it does, fine, if it doesn't then you can't go along with it.

Lumping all JW's together as if they had a collective responsibility over actions others have taken or haven't taken flies in the face of individual responsibility. It does accord, however with the zeitgest of marxist-post-modernism whereby there is no truth, only power and the idea of collective guilt and collective responsibility. Marx failed to enthuse the workers to revolt, but the post-modernist-marxists at every turn seek to organize society into a myriad competing, yet miserable factions all of which are seeking the status of the penultimate victim.

I see a Satanic hand in all this as the nullification of the individual and individual responsibility and the denial of free will and truth.  Some might argue that being in an organization is equivalent to worshiping the organization. I don't. Paul made use of his status as a Roman citizen without being guilty of the abuses of the Roman state. Christians today could be in congregations which have strayed - that's on them to address. Are these addressing group sins, or those of individuals? If you have an issue w/an individual, you have recourse. Has a congregation gone wholly awry? If that's true, I haven't seen it yet, but if that time comes, it would be on me to deal with it. As an individual. And by scriptural means.

Oh and at the risk of being taken seriously.

 

[Thinking]

8 hours ago, xero said:

I do think Tom's reference to the outside source which distinguishes between institutional abuse and abuse in familial non-institutional settings is important. The source noted 1-2% of any given population having issues in this regard. This same percentage appears to be present among those identifying as JW's. These are humans w/the same failings. What's at issue is what it is that's suggested - conflating institutional abuse, Sunday Schools, Camps and the like w/paid clergy/laity vs abuse which happens in a home and later reported on.

I also read of a ex JW who stated he went to the Bible students ( Russell’s followers) and some other groups of which I cannot remember and he noted that all the problems he/she saw with In The org...was also present within those said groups..it’s everywhere...even Franz who wrote his famous book said he did not see that this was a issue any worse than any other faith...

 

[Thinking]

8 hours ago, xero said:

I do think Tom's reference to the outside source which distinguishes between institutional abuse and abuse in familial non-institutional settings is important. The source noted 1-2% of any given population having issues in this regard. This same percentage appears to be present among those identifying as JW's. These are humans w/the same failings. What's at issue is what it is that's suggested - conflating institutional abuse, Sunday Schools, Camps and the like w/paid clergy/laity vs abuse which happens in a home and later reported on.

Bad men,,and women will always infiltrate the congregation..we have so many scriptural facts on that...I think where the society had to readjust and were forced to readjust was on our policies...we need to admit that...and we now have policies that allowed in house and even strongly encouraged in house handling ..removed..due to those policies being changed...certain things will no longer be handled or tolerated as they were once.

It would have been best if the brothers had done this by themselves instead of the ARC forcing them too...BUT...they have changed..been corrected....we are being refined..wether we like it or not...wether  it hurts or not...we are still his imperfect people...wether chastised by the world or not...

[Srecko Sostar]

14 hours ago, xero said:

Where has this been eliminated? I have yet to read of an organization anywhere where this has been eliminated.

 

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How many? No more than anywhere in the overall population, and probably much less.

 

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

I also read of a ex JW who stated he went to the Bible students ( Russell’s followers) and some other groups of which I cannot remember and he noted that all the problems he/she saw with In The org...was also present within those said groups..it’s everywhere...even Franz who wrote his famous book said he did not see that this was a issue any worse than any other faith...

 

From this it could justifiably be concluded that all organizations are similar and that none meet the “divine” criteria.

Differences in theology become irrelevant if members cannot curb their negative urges/impulses and if cultivate prejudices toward members of other religions and toward former members. Out of a desire to please God, Cain and Abel forgot that they should love one another first, and only then love God.

[TrueTomHarley]

11 hours ago, Thinking said:

It would have been best if the brothers had done this by themselves instead of the ARC forcing them too...BUT...they have changed..been corrected....we are being refined.

In writing about the May 2019 Watchtower, I mentioned how opposers would say, “It only happened because of our prodding.” They would claim “credit” for the “clarification.”

So? Give it to them, so far as I am concerned. Everything in life is action/reaction. “Out of sight/out of mind” is the universal human tendency that operates towards any who have gone out of sight, and in the case of former JWs who have suffered abuse from which they have not recovered, these opposers did not permit it to happen. I have no problem acknowledging their role.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/02/the-reproach-of-child-sexual-abuse-falls-on-the-abu.html

Even if you have to call them out on their excessive vendetta you can still recognize they have spurred on valuable change.

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From this it could justifiably be concluded that all organizations are similar and that none meet the “divine” criteria.

So what are we to make of this comment from Srecko? He yields on his ridiculous comparison of institutional abuse in various religions to abuse in families that happen to be religious. He yields on it because it is ridiculous and he can no longer support it.

So what does he do? He takes a “heads I win/tails you lose “ new argument. “Well, since other organizations have people who sin, and you do too, there is no reason to say you are any different.”

Will he say it of the hospital? “Well, since there are plenty of sick people in the world and also plenty in the hospital, there is no reason to go there.”

[xero]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

 

From this it could justifiably be concluded that all organizations are similar and that none meet the “divine” criteria.

Differences in theology become irrelevant if members cannot curb their negative urges/impulses and if cultivate prejudices toward members of other religions and toward former members. Out of a desire to please God, Cain and Abel forgot that they should love one another first, and only then love God.

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree as to differences in theology as being irrelevant. Take the Declaration of Independence, where it says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." At the time this was written slavery existed in the colonies and wasn't wiped out at that time. It did, however establish a vector w/in the text as to the ideal. Theologies likewise carry within them a vector w/in, a text as to the ideal. I hold these things to not be irrelevant even if we are unable to fully realize them at present. There is value in intolerance, even beauty. The issue is one of hating sin, while not at the same time hating the sinner. For example homosexuality is practically embraced by so many so-called Christians today, because not embracing this behavior is seen as loathsome hatred of the being of another, a denial of these people and their existence. It isn't. People can and do change. Having unwholesome predilections can be curbed. But we need to make it clear that it isn't just these sins which are at issue, but we often can give this impression. The Bible is full of descriptions of sin and if we're honest we're all guilty. Legalism can be and is an issue w/many as these seek to avoid all condemnation in their own eyes. But we have to be honest, we're not better than anyone, but to the extent that we submit to God's direction (don't equate this w/fidelity to organizations) we can find ourselves moving in the right direction. Provided our theology is providing the right (or best) roadmap.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

22 hours ago, xero said:

a lot of pain being expressed

No, it's Empathy 

22 hours ago, xero said:

I asked whether there was any group untouched by this sort of thing, and the absence of a response means you understand that there isn't.

I've answered this many times but you and others don't like my answer.  The Watchtower / JW Org is not supposed to be like any other group. It is suposed to be 'God's chosen Org'.  It would be like me, if I wanted to compare myself, to make myself feel good. I'd compare myself to a drug addict, an alcoholic or a murderer. I could then say, Well I'm better than them. You and other JWs are doing just that with the Org. You are comparing it to things that you know are worse. Of course the JW Org is better than a whorehouse. now try comparing the JW Org to God's standards. You will find it fails miserably. 

23 hours ago, xero said:

I have and others who likewise consider themselves to be faithful test every expression ostensibly inspired or otherwise to see if it washes with scripture - if it does, fine, if it doesn't then you can't go along with it.

Physically in - spiritually out.   BUT that creates a problem. What will you preach or teach to others ? Will you teach GB speak, or will you teach truth ?  That was one of the problems i faced because the GB / Watchtower goes beyond the things written. 

23 hours ago, xero said:

Lumping all JW's together as if they had a collective responsibility over actions others have taken or haven't taken flies in the face of individual responsibility. It does accord, however with the zeitgest of marxist-post-modernism

This breaks down into a couple of things. Firstly I have NO interest in politics and NO interest in this idea of pigeonholing  / name calling. "zeitgest of marxist-post-modernism"

Secondly. Lumping all JW's together as if they had a collective responsibility over actions others have taken (etc)

All JWs do have the responsibility because they follow the insrtutions of the GB, through the Watchtower and through the Elders.  They are taught to no longer BE individuals. As an example, when I've asked an Elder about a certain point in scripture, he has said to me, I'll have to look at how the organisation sees this. He would not give me HIS individual opinion. And when there is action to be taken it is done inline with GB / Watchtower insructions.  Everything preached is by order of the GB / Watchtower.  There is not supposed to be any individuals in the JW org. There are only sheep. The problem is that their shepherds are not serving God.

23 hours ago, xero said:

I see a Satanic hand in all this as the nullification of the individual and individual responsibility and the denial of free will and truth.  Some might argue that being in an organization is equivalent to worshiping the organization. I don't. Paul made use of his status as a Roman citizen without being guilty of the abuses of the Roman state.

You try to be clever and to mix so much up in one ortwo sentances. You fail. 

Lets start here.  quote :

" I see a Satanic hand in all this as the nullification of the individual and individual responsibility and the denial of free will and truth. "

Same answer as above.  JWs are not suppoaed to have free will. They are supposed to do exactly as they are told.  The misuse of scripture such as 'Be obedient to those taking the lead anomg you'. Hebrews 13 :17

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989685

Quote "Paul made use of his status as a Roman citizen without being guilty of the abuses of the Roman state."

Are you suggesting that a JW could make use of their JW 'citizenship' whilst acting, teaching and preaching, something completely different ?  Instant d/fed I would think.  

23 hours ago, xero said:

Christians today could be in congregations which have strayed - that's on them to address.

Not so easy is it ?  Congregation run by Elders, Elders in subjection to Circuit Overseer, in subjection to and in subjection to, right up to their HQ Bethel, then up to GB.  The ordinary congregant has two chioce, as i found. Stay in and put up with it, or, leave. 

As for you, you are one Elder, so I wish you well in sorting out your own congregation. But you'll probs not be looking to see where the problems are, as you say you just let things go by. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Even if you have to call them out on their excessive vendetta you can still recognize they have spurred on valuable change.

vendetta

a blood feud in which the family of a murdered person seeks vengeance on the murderer or the murderer's family.

1. • a prolonged bitter quarrel with or campaign against someone.

      

     TTH cannot back down on HIS own vendetta against ex-JWs.  Even though he pretends to give a little praise.