They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, xero said:

I usually just double the allocation.

Xero, the Data Science Guy.

[JW Insider]

35 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

INSIDER! Does not speak for the Watchtower.

True. I've made that very clear many times. I think of this site as a place to discuss various opinions and concerns about various Watchtower doctrines. After much prayer and study and meditation, I even find myself in disagreement with almost all of our chronology-related doctrines. Of course, at last count, I also find myself completely agreeing with about 95% of the Watchtower's other doctrines. (It's closer to 98.6% when using the list of all the different baptismal questions that have been used since 1967, when I was baptized.) So I have no problem discussing the 5% that I question.

35 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I demonstrated earlier his ignorance about Russell

What happened to your three posts about Russell? It looks like you deleted those posts and a couple of others under this topic that other persons here had already answered. For a minute there, I assumed you actually went back and looked up some of those Russell quotes and realized that you needed to remove your own posts. But that didn't sound very much like you at all! LOL!

[Anna]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is there a possibility that, the number, 144000 should not be taken literally?

Yes, of course. There are very few numbers in Revelation that are taken literally. Even the number 144,000 is made up of a non-literal number of tribes (12) each made up of a non-literal number of persons from each one of them (12,000).

I have wondered about that too, for the same reason. If the number was not literal, it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year. I would not be surprise if it was dropped one day....

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

If the number was not literal, it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year.

It would also resolve the issue of there having been more than a million partakers who faced death for their Christian faith rather than give a pinch of incense to the Roman emperor, or contaminate their conscience with other forms of idolatry or blood. It's either that or explicitly allow for the idea that an earthly hope had been opened up generally to Christians before 1935.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year.

:))) ....there isn't really a problem with that aspect. If the number changes, it's because some anointed ones drop out, some replace them, and some dropouts come back again ... somewhere, or at least in WTJWorg.

Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))

[xero]

Could it be that only mentally unbalanced or competitive people find themselves obsessed with who is or isn't anointed? The recent video made it clear that this is an internal decision by an individual and that there's no objective way for anyone to know if someone is or isn't anointed. The minimal behavioral conduct required to be considered "Christian" is clear from scripture and we can all look at someone and see if the behavior we can observe is in line w/scripture. On the other hand we don't have body cams and recordings from a persons mind or anything like this so we can know 24x7 whether they're OK.

It seems all the worrying of this bone is about organization. Does Jehovah use this organization known as JW's?

You decide as an individual. If Jehovah chooses to NOT use it, you'll know. No one needs a bunch of whiners to look for unscriptural lint left in the washing machine to know whether the clothes cleaner still has cleaned the clothes to a usable degree.

Ok. You can go back to nit picking.

[Anna]

37 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))

I know you are being sarcastic, but if anything changed, then it wouldn't be for the first time, you know that. And really, it is not a fundamental problem whether the number is literal or not, (even though I said it could solve the problem of increasing partakers, as you say, it could be because some have dropped out etc.. ) Ultimately God knows the correct interpretation, we can only do our best to understand it, and we can be wrong, as so many others in Bible times were. I am not worrying about it.

[Witness]

On 3/19/2021 at 9:39 AM, Anna said:

It is a difficult doctrine for me to accept, yes, however, I am not saying it can't be true. The organization is obviously convinced it is true. If one day there is sufficient evidence for them to stop being so dogmatic about it, they may change their opinion. They have done it before with other things. If that happens, then it won't change my opinion about Jws. It will remain the same as it is today because I do not hang my faith on the 1914 doctrine.

Okay, but I ask, where is love for neighbor with this doctrine, a doctrine that for those who may not be like you, but totally embrace this timetable? Where is your love for your neighboring JWs?   This date is at the root of the organization’s teachings, and is a source of disfellowshipping for many who reject it.  Perhaps that is why you may be keeping your opinion to yourself? (Prov 29:25; Mark 10:29,30)

I just heard a video clip that stated a document was prepared by the Chairman’s Committee of the GB, to change the date of 1914 to 1957.  Ray Franz comments on this document he was holding in the video:

"Now, in this document, they suggest and advances an idea, that uh, the generation that would see the time of the end of all things should not be counted from 1914.  They fix on Jesus’ statement that there would be signs in the heavens, and so they suggest here that the date should be moved up to 1957, when the Sputnik was sent into space by the Russians, and they say, now this is the celestial phenomena that would indicate the generation that would see the final” (I didn’t catch the last word).

It seems that this “Sputnik” idea was even brought out on this forum since I've been a member.  Someone can correct me on that.

So, there you go.  If the doctrine of 1914 was correct, well established by the “slave” under the guidance of Jesus Christ, there would be no reason to consider moving the date.  There would be no need for David Splane to twist and turn the dates of Fred Franz’s birth and baptism…to make a new understanding of a date...they are too cowardly to admit is a lie. 

And yet, it is a tool used to kick people to the curb, and why?  To save the face of men who have no pity for the damage they have done, to the lives of millions over the years. 

Differing weights and varying measures—
both are detestable to the Lord.  Prov 20:10

Their hypocrisy should be detestable to us also.

Have they proven to be “faithful and discreet”?  The word translated as “discreet”, actually has, as its definition…“wise”.  Matt 24:48-51

There is no love for neighbor, no truth, no wisdom, no insight in the doctrine of 1914. 

Yet, this date characterizes the organization that you belong to.

"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. " Rom 16:17,18

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, xero said:

Could it be that only mentally unbalanced or competitive people find themselves obsessed with who is or isn't anointed?

@xero is back to his/her jealousy of the True Anointed ones. He/she is also back to the GB's idea of mentally unbalanced. We all know the scripture at Zechariah 8 : 23

This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue will tightly grasp the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ ”

People of spiritual thinking will know that the JEW in this scripture refers to the True Anointed remnant. Therefore it is important to know who are the True Anointed, otherwise people could follow the wrong 'Jew'. Unfortunately over 8 million people are following the wrong 'Jew' of the Watchtower/JW org right now. 

 

[ComfortMyPeople]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yes, of course. There are very few numbers in Revelation that are taken literally. Even the number 144,000 is made up of a non-literal number of tribes (12) each made up of a non-literal number of persons from each one of them (12,000).

The rationale for taking this one literally is that it is compared with an uncountable number of gentiles who come out of the great tribulation. We don't teach that these are literal gentiles either.

Just to introduce another item into this consideration. It seems that the number 12 or its multiples in the Bible always appears as literal, never symbolic.

• Jacob's 12 sons (males) were exactly 12
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• The 12 tribes of Israel were actually 12, not 13
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• The Levitical priesthood was organized in a multiple of 12, namely 24 divisions (1Chr 24: 1-19)
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• The recruitment of assistants and officers who served David were organized in groups of 24,000 per month, from the 12 tribes, giving a total of 288,000 soldiers. All multiples of 12, and all exact numbers, real and non-symbolic.
•  
• Also, Jesus literally chooses 12 apostles, as we know. Literally.
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• The following is very interesting, in my opinion. When there were only 11 faithful apostles alive, just before Pentecost, they prayed intensely to Jehovah for guidance during those days (Acts 1:14), as a result of which, it was for divine guidance that they chose a twelfth apostle again, thus when Spiritual Israel began at Pentecost there were literally 12 foundations.
•  
• And, precisely at Pentecost, how many were gathered when the nucleus of the anointed ones who would go to heaven was formed? 120. Another multiple of 12 (Acts 1:15)

It is true that in Revelation numbers like 3, 4, 6, 7, 10 are symbolic. But I have my reservations for 12 or 144,000 as symbolics.

Indeed, if 144,000 is symbolic, many things are fixed, as has already been said: the large number of Christians during the past 20 centuries who will easily have exceeded that number. The problem of replacement anointed ones, and I suppose others that now escape me.

The best answer I can give is: I'm not sure, I don't know.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, xero said:

Could it be that only mentally unbalanced or competitive people find themselves obsessed with who is or isn't anointed?

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I know you are being sarcastic, but if anything changed, then it wouldn't be for the first time, you know that. And really, it is not a fundamental problem whether the number is literal or not, (even though I said it could solve the problem of increasing partakers, as you say, it could be because some have dropped out etc.. ) Ultimately God knows the correct interpretation, we can only do our best to understand it, and we can be wrong, as so many others in Bible times were. I am not worrying about it.

Another Bible quote came to mind; My Father’s house has many rooms - John 14
So there’s something being said here about the idea that some will go to heaven. What does a lot of rooms (mansions, dweling places, abodes) mean? How many rooms and apartments are there? How many beds per room? If it really mattered or determined, I guess Jesus would have mentioned that thing. Or maybe not. But even this paragraph does not speak in favor of a fixed number of 144,000.