Conscience individual and collective

[Pudgy]

13 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

JTR has demonstrated the opposite, since I've known him.

????????

[Srecko Sostar]

15 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I advocate, this OPEN FORUM portion be "relabeled" with a warning.

It’s a job for WTJWorg lawyers. No one can forbid the gathering of people on forums that deal, among other things, with JW’s beliefs. What is the difference between an Open and a Closed Club? According to GB, everything is ...  both are .... "illegal". :))

[Witness]

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It’s a job for WTJWorg lawyers. No one can forbid the gathering of people on forums that deal, among other things, with JW’s beliefs. What is the difference between an Open and a Closed Club? According to GB, everything is ...  both are .... "illegal". :))

The GB would not bother giving the warning, or forbidding JWs to "go there",  if they didn't have their sharks hunting the waters for them, who then report to the wolves.   Or, maybe in their spare time, in the privacy of their own room, the wolves also visit the forums, and listen to videos.  So, the sharks and the GB are immune to what happens on the forums.  They can thwart any demonic persuasion that they may read, while the rank and file are too ignorant to protect themselves?  

"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. ³⁰ Men will rise up even from your own number and distort the truth to lure the disciples into following them. ³¹ Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for three years I never stopped warning each one of you with tears."

“lure the disciples into following them”. 

These wolves will not tolerate competition.  They are fierce competitors, disguised as sheep who offer "fruit", that has distorted the truth in Jesus Christ.  Matt 7:15-19 

 

 

[Thinking]

19 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Sorry to say, thinking. I have dealt with apostasy since Raymond Franz. I know exactly the "conduct" of people. JTR's humor has a "realism" in him that comes from the heart. This behavior is not unusual. Most of the time, people tend to find the autonomous, the internet really gives to an individual to express they're true nature. For a "witness" that has doubts will be the first to expose their discontent. That in itself, is putting their personal interest ahead of their true mission of putting the kingdom interest first, that Jesus spoke of. The Kingdom message by and large is unity. Just like in the Body of Christ. There needs to be unity in order to function as one. Christ church is built upon that foundation of unity. That is for the rest of us. Those two objectives form one union. Therefore, the Spirit of God is always present. 

That’s why scripture defines, different gifts. Those gifts are intertwined. That is something JOHN and WITNESS have a hard time accepting.

I once said, I do not hate anyone, nor would I. Whatever a person feels in their heart, ultimately, they have to justify themselves to God. 

The fact you refuse to see JTR as an apostate is an inner feeling for acknowledging his mistakes. In other words, you feel sorry for him. That's fine. However, under Bible consideration, there needs to be "repentance". JTR has demonstrated the opposite, since I've known him. That's a long time, that he hasn't shown "real" repentance. Neither has TTH, JWI, Anna, and a host of others.

For that reason, I advocate, this OPEN FORUM portion be "relabeled" with a warning. The Banner and heading itself is "deceptive". There is no spiritual brotherhood here, that can't be placed in the same category, regardless of anyone’s intentions. 

However, this is something that needs to happen, toward the end. Remember Jude 1:8-10 and Revelation 12:10. Even though, the accusation of the Watchtower slowly started with Pastor Russell, it became very apparent after 1914.

Thank you for the invitation to join the closed club. My presence is needed here, not there. We all have a mission in life. My calling was made clear decades ago. As a servant, I obey faithfully.

Example:

 

 

Unfortunately these sites and others such as e watchman...e JW ..and beroeans pickets...of which at some stages and many years I was a member of ...and of which I usually got disfellowshipped or banned from.

All start out ..promoting Jehovah’s people as Gods true people but in serious error...hence their web sites...and they also go on to promote their own understandings on certain issues..

The serious matter that happens with such places is that they are refusing and lacking trust in Jehovah to be able to correct, allow..and rule his people as he sees fit.

Thus they act in a presumptions manner trying to do what he has not done ( in their minds) and eventually they go on to claim JWs were never a people he used anyway etc etc.

yet many have had doubtful thoughts answered in a proper scriptural manner..thus they become trusting...and primed for future deceiving.

Jehovah is allowing these places to exist...as a winnowing...many have come to understand this...some unfortunately get caught up and deceived by these ones who themselves are deceived...they are not evil...but like Eve ....thoroughly deceived.

I also have read ray Franz...but it strengthened my faith that Jehovah does indeed use a faulty people...I read his second book and binned it half way thru as I could see what he was doing....much like in time such web sites you have named and I have been on do.

They promote their own understandings..(all seem to become anointed...).most feel they are needed to do this I guess..because they truly LACK TRUST that Jehovah does not see the errors and will fix them when he is ready.

The thing is...most of these are lovely people..nicer..kinder ...better in personality ..and deeds ..than myself....but this too is a trap in itself..

He USES faulty sinful men..men who make serious errors...such as Moses Jonah..King David..and yes even and more so theGB...to get his job done but to teach us and them...it is HE...and only HE..who achieves his desired plans...regardless of who he uses.

On line has always been a playground for the demons ...they are very very active on all sites...they are enticing To hurt and stumbling ones....but they will devour them off course...but not all are deceived..not all fall prey to them....

This has serious consequences as all witnesses need to learn...Moses did not make it into the promised land for a number of reason...Firstly he railed at the people for the being rebellious...of which he had no right to do nor was he commanded to say that...He forgot..THEY WERE JEHOVAHS PEOPLE...not his.......and then he hit the rock twice..in anger...expressing a leaning on his own understanding and a feeling and lack of trust in Jehovah that it needed it...( there is more to that hitting the rock twice which is very serious but I won’t enter into here ) Also he promoted himself and Aaron here in a presumptuous manner.

This is what happens on line ...ones who suddenly claim to be anointed ..and feel directed by this anointing  to correct or safely guide JWs to a real place of spiritual  security...thus a lack of faith that their God of Who they claim to worship can not do this .

Jehovah’s Witnesses get more hate and abuse on line than the Natzis ...some of it earned..some of it not..a lot of it directly from demons using certain types of personalities.......and unless you are prepared to understand how Jehovah deals with his people down thru time...and WHY...it will definitely stumble some....

You are right..this is not a Jehovah’s Witness site....and I’m giving you your just due in saying that....and there should be a warning as such for ones who come here...

Having said all of that...many go to such sites because of huge errors and pain they experience in certain congregations..

This must be acknowledged..and recognized ..some things that have been allowed is nothing short of ruthless and cruel.....but this has always been amongst his people..when certain kings ruled ruthlessly over his people...he allowed it...I now  view it as a testing for me ..

I also have seen great love and genuine care...of which tips the scales to the better degree.

Being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses means their really is a world bond like no Other  I can think of....if you travel overseas and bump into a brother or sister and it becomes known to both parties...their is a great exuberance of fellow feeling and love to a stranger...even for that short moment of pleasantry exchanges..there is a bond...and it’s undeniable..

One could physically feel it at our last assembly when all the songs were played at the end of the convention....at that time...all the errors and pain become a thing of the past...and we were just a motley lot of people try to bend our knees to Our Great Creator....and it was a glimpse of what it will be like in the New World ...

Lastly I would like to say...I do not believe that a real anointed one would ever go on line and sow seeds of doubt..and put any brothers and sisters life in danger  so as they may risk a spiritual death....nor would they be discreet in claiming to be one....

I have no issues with a chatty forum amongst brothers and sister and discussing subjects not openly discussed amongst us for whatever reasons....I think some...were once like that..and I enjoyed them ....but .then they seem to slowly morph into a hatred of anything to do with the watchtowers or JWs...or even using Jehovah’s name.

I don’t always agree with you Billy...but I do back you with renaming this site with a warning...because there are obvious apostates on here...but my view of apostasy is different to yours I think...but I know we would agree with the ones I’m thinking off....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I just need you to understand a few things. First, your correct, the Watchtower is not going to bother with ex-witnesses and opposers. Second, they don't need to ask anyone. Any person can initiate an investigation. Third, the Watchtower nor its lawyers need to file a complaint, unless its for copyright violations and or a threat to the safety of its members.

Forth, Your ignorant presumption that free speech shields you. No one is immune!

Fifth, I would research the words, "solicitation" and "provocation", when it comes to hate speech.

I'll give you an example:

"But the most important limit on the reach of the First Amendment in terms of hate speech is that solicitation of, and participation in, criminal activity is not protected. Thus, even though expressed in spoken words, the offer of money for a gangland hit is punishable."

Now, this is just an example. Don't read too much into it, to make a false claim and misrepresentation. Hate groups and terrorist can be and in my opinion, ex-witnesses should be included with such groups.

You misunderstood me.  I was only replying to Srecko's comment, in particular.. 

22 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

. No one can forbid the gathering of people on forums that deal, among other things, with JW’s beliefs. What is the difference between an Open and a Closed Club? According to GB, everything is ...  both are .... "illegal". :))

 

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

the Watchtower is not going to bother with ex-witnesses and opposers

Contrary to what you think, the WT is very much bothered by exjws and "opposers".  That's why they send out their sharks, to report back to the wolves about what's happening out there, with both exjws AND JWs.  

If they weren't "bothered", they wouldn't be up in arms about "despicable apostates".  They wouldn't attempt to shut down exjw youtube channels.  

You're really into the lawyer stuff and how necessary it is to guard your "watchtower".   Jesus condemned the lawyers in his day, because of their slanderous misuse and disregard for God's word, which is repeating itself in the organization.  Matt 23:13,15,23

The Wt's "kingdom" is in the world, fighting its worldly battles. 

Jesus' kingdom, is not.  John 18:36

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

They promote their own understandings..(all seem to become anointed...).most feel they are needed to do this I guess..because they truly LACK TRUST that Jehovah does not see the errors and will fix them when he is ready

Each anointed one in the organization should stand up for Jesus Christ and speak truth when they see errors made in teachings, and cruel acts committed.  This is what is called following in Christ's footsteps.  God expects that of them.  God is not going to expect people to sit on their haunches until He fixes the errors. The apostles took Jesus' lead and "fixed" the errors.   Our hearts are judged by our stand for righteousness, or unrighteousness. If we "shrink back" out of fear, where do we stand before God? 

Does God LACK TRUST in JWs?  Are they defending Him, His Truth and His Son?  Or, are they kowtowing to men?  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, César Chávez said:

So, this open forum is just an "excuse" for "disgruntled" witnesses

Yes, and ...?? What do you have with that "disgruntled" witnesses ? They have their reasons for be such. And we will not argue their reasons, but we can about yours, if you agree.  

Perhaps some Betel elders have "task" to collect information about participants on this forum club and then give report to BOE. I know they doing that, because elders from Zagreb Betel (also elders in ex congregation) followed my Google+ in 2015, looking for "incriminate material". :))

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, César Chávez said:

freedom of speech is actually hate speech.

JW TV have just enough "fine" examples of hate speech by "top" elders of Organization.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

The serious matter that happens with such places is that they are refusing and lacking trust in Jehovah to be able to correct, allow..and rule his people as he sees fit.

He USES faulty sinful men..men who make serious errors...such as Moses Jonah..King David..and yes even and more so theGB...to get his job done but to teach us and them...it is HE...and only HE..who achieves his desired plans...regardless of who he uses.

He USES faulty sinful men..men who make serious errors. ......there are no different people (in any sphere of life) on Earth than the ones you described. By this, He can use not only faulty sinful JW but also faulty sinful Catholic, Mormons, Adventist, politician, etc

In second part of your thought, are you suggesting that everything that is wrong in the Organization is actually inseparable part of God’s Plan ? Or, that because of the constant appearance of all that is wrong in the Organization, God's plan must be changed and adjusted over and over again?

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

Jehovah is allowing these places to exist...as a winnowing...

Well, by that we could also say that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in Eden was a kind of sifting. However, there this tree was not only grew by accident, but was placed with the intent rather than by mere "allowing". 

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

This must be acknowledged..and recognized ..some things that have been allowed is nothing short of ruthless and cruel.....but this has always been amongst his people..when certain kings ruled ruthlessly over his people...he allowed it...I now  view it as a testing for me ..

With this thoughts, we can be closer to idea how JHVH participating in "guiding apostates sites" to "correct"  WTJWorg ? :))

 

[xero]

Musing...In view of the history of the bible, the false worship of the northern 10 tribes, their motivations for going where they went all through this to the defective Sanhedrin of the 1st century and the temple, the idea of complete perfection or even partial on the part of the earthly attempts of people to properly worship Jehovah seems misguided.

Anything thought of as "branching off" can never succeed.

Christians didn't think of themselves as "branching off", but as the main trunk.

Later Catholics may likewise have thought of their organization as corrupt and yet the one used by God.

Protestants formed any number of groups, trying various manners of propagations succeeding variously. Why? Because when these formed these formed around emotionally evocative differences which were thought to be critical to true worship. These usually began w/following men and usually ended because of following men - usually and more importantly particular men.

A field which is uncultivated and w/o cultivators ultimately ceases to be a field which produces fruit.

Increasingly Christendom fails to tend to the necessary business of weeding and identifying as weeds both beliefs and practices.

Is survival as a group an identifying mark of having God's favor? Not necessarily, but it is necessary to survive. Not surviving does indicate that the group splitting off was not following the right trail.

In the 1st century Jesus said to those hanging on his words of the scribes and pharisees whom he referred to as "hypocrites and offspring of vipers", that "all the things they say do and observe".

One might have thought that strange unless one understood that being used didn't equate to individual favor on the part of those being used.

So it's important to be able to distinguish if Jehovah is using any organization (I believe that he always has) (or organizations, if he is using more than one) we as individuals have to choose.

Which group is doing the best job in your view?

If so, then why not do your all to support it? In so doing there is no need to compromise your principles,or  your individual conscience if you understand properly how you must necessarily tolerate the idiosyncracies and readily perceptible deficiencies of the organization and those "taking the lead".

***Thinking aloud some more here

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 3/31/2021 at 7:43 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

It will show through when I begin offering True Anointed sweatshirts on my website.

It is a phrase completely of your own devising. Even your fellow yo-yos have not used it. The more you repeat it, with your expectations of how it comes along just in the nick of time to save the day, the more ridiculous it sounds. 

Don’t get me going on this. Already I can picture a fellow lounging on the beach, relaxing, enjoying himself through and through, not doing a thing, with the logo: “Chill, man, I’m waiting for the True Anointed.”

I have never heard anyone use the expression but you.

I use it to differentiate those who are Truly Anointed, from those that your GB say have 'mental illness' or those that maybe once were Anointed but have turned away from their calling ( including the GB).  

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 3/31/2021 at 11:32 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

At least with him, I can see many decades of full-time service,

Full time service to other GB members and to a couple of Orgs W/t & JW.