Old school Communism, Socialism, Captialism

[Matthew9969]

I didn't want to hijack another thread that was already going way off the topic so I'll start this one. 

In Jesus time, what was the political environment at the time? The Romans socialist, jews capitalist?

[Space Merchant]

Some would believe that the Romans founded Capitalism, however, this was not he case. Although their system mirrors that, they were not entirely Capitalist.

In ancient Rome, as is, other ancient cultures, they did have many of the features associated with Capitalism, if not as formal, but rather, legal institutions in the strictest sense. This also goes hand in hand with customs and traditions (pre-industrial societies), which is tough due to it being intertwined by law(s) in Roman culture.

Some examples would be rights to private property, 3rd party contracts, Market prices, and support from the governments. The Roman Empire had these features at least partially. Some will attest that one of the most important features of Capitalism is private property as a tool to gain large quantities of wealth and to use such capital for rents, whether as land use, currency or equipment used in production. In addition, some also attest that Rome to be essentially Capitalist. Granted how much power the Romans had, this seems to be the case with what took place in Jesus' time, however, there was no shred of Marxism or anything equal to that back then. In regards to Isabella's thread, the level of Communism appears to be around the 1940-1950s. Moreover, Christians who are heavily attuned with government and socialism will often attempt to justify some of this to push the narrative, well in modern day, an agenda.

That being said, today's Capitalism is vastly different compared to back then, I believe around the late 17th or 18th century and onward, things took a drastic change, mainly due to applied scientific natural law to economic behavior. As for Socialism, it is somewhat different, but not too far off the mark, granted, it is viable to the economic and political model.

Therefore, in regards to the other thread, which is related to Communism, it doesn't make sense for one to equate this with what was discussed there. Marxism would be understandable, but Capitalism.... Not so much.

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Romans socialist, jews capitalist?

The Romans were ruling over the whole territory of Palestine (they gave the entire territory its name).  When Jesus was born the senate and triumvirate structure had been replaced by Julius Caesar as first emperor.  His adopted son Octavian became Caesar Augustus (the exactor). He was supreme emperor - a god - and the senate appointed Kings who ruled certain areas.  Herod was very smart and went to Rome to humble himself to acquire the Kingship. 

Rome had much problems with the Jews because they did not assimilate due to their religion. Rome appointed kings in certain areas under Roman jurisdiction - which had to pay taxes to Ceasar........ which was basically a central dictatorship.  Rome was a 2 tier society - the rich - who did not work and the rest of society which comprised free men and slaves.  Only land owners had a say in the running of the country and had to go to war.  Palestine, during the Greek time fell under the Seleucids and later king Herod and his son were appointed over the territory of Israel.

So one cannot compare it to today - but let us say the rich were capitalistic and the poor were dependents upon the state.  This later developed into the feudal structures. (after Roman times).

The Jews who kept the law - looked after each other and in this way one can call the lower echelons of society a more socialist way of living but one cannot in any way compare it to modern socialism. 

Humans have really tried all kinds of societal structures. Soldiers really played a large role in the stability of previous empires...... because invasions and attacks could come from any source.  The public barely subsisted and were vulnerable.  The rich were oppressive and looked after their own.... and assassinations, robberies etc were rife for families to climb the social ladder.  Very few lower class people came up the ladder in Rome.  Although, a land owner, Emperor Vespasian was called the donkey breeder. He was at the right places at the right time. 

 

[Space Merchant]

@AraunaAs of recent in the modern era, what was in place in the past, is expanded upon drastically. US Billionaires (some of which are Christian Capitalists) are 62% richer during COVID-19 Endemic, having a worth near/up to $1.8 Trillion dollars, Largest Transfer of Wealth, something of which the Investor Community has been fighting against - The Establishment. Granted this benefited them, and for the Investor Community and anyone in the crosshairs are impacted negatively.

That being said, the US Federal Reserve also embolden such types of folks, effectively increasing Socialism for the Billionaire Class.

[Arauna]

27 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

some of which are Christian Capitalists)

Most of them are NOT Christians but are globalists with transhumanist aspirations.  Blackrock value is 9 trillion for example.  There are people who fly under the radar such as the old money  i.e. Dutch east India Company (dutch king which owns Shell etc); English east India company (British queen who owns British Petroleum). Vanguard, Buffet and people like Ted Turner and others who hold similar atheist convictions together with the top global corporations that have more money than most countries - all the stocks of these corporations owned by the same group of billionaires (which includes the CCP military wing). And add to that all AI companies together with the digital companies (who all do secret contracts for DARPA, CIA, NASA and the other secret organizations and spy on enemies and citizens.)

 

On 11/23/2021 at 5:27 PM, Space Merchant said:

Capitalism is vastly different compared to back then,

Capitalism took a turn when 'usury' became the way to make money but it also changed when gold or silver no longer backed the money system......... A central banking system, owned by a private cartel, can take control of all money.

[Matthew9969]

Thank you for your history lesson, I'd love to see the source material your knowledge is based upon. You two definatley have way more time on your hands than I do

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

you for your history lesson

There are many books about finances.  You can just about pick up any book about the history of money and you will get the same story...... 

[Pudgy]

6 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Thank you for your history lesson, I'd love to see the source material your knowledge is based upon. You two definatley have way more time on your hands than I do

Actually, everyone has the same amount of time .... some start earlier ... some die earlier.

But barring that, other things being equal, we all choose how to, and how not to ... spend our time.

[Pudgy]

Quote

 

.... I am a big fan of eating, and naps.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:27 AM, Space Merchant said:

That being said, today's Capitalism is vastly different compared to back then, I believe around the late 17th or 18th century and onward, things took a drastic change, mainly due to applied scientific natural law to economic behavior.

Without peaking, didn’t capitalism get underway when people began pooling investments? With regard to European exploration of North America, expeditions were financed from pooled investors. They were not self-financed. 

On 11/23/2021 at 11:27 AM, Space Merchant said:

In regards to Isabella's thread,

Queen Isabella of Spain is the one to watch in this instance. Expeditions to South America were not investor financed. They could not be, because Spain (and Italy) were solidly Catholic. Catholics considered any kind of investor finance was usury prohibited by scripture. The only one who with deep enough pockets to self-finance a voyage to South. America was the crown. That is why South America was exploited to a much greater degree than North. ‘Grab the gold and go’ was the motto of Catholic Spain and Italy. But investors from England and the Netherlands were not thwarted by usury scriptures that ruled out investing. They had no need for their stake to be paid back instantly.

Does the legacy even remain to this day?

 

[Space Merchant]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:52 PM, Matthew9969 said:

Thank you for your history lesson, I'd love to see the source material your knowledge is based upon. You two definatley have way more time on your hands than I do

It varies for me, majority of the information is from the community I am part of, anything Biblically is anything that I know/or from experience via debates, culture, etc. or of the CSE community which consist of many Christians.

On 11/25/2021 at 7:25 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Without peaking, didn’t capitalism get underway when people began pooling investments? With regard to European exploration of North America, expeditions were financed from pooled investors. They were not self-financed. 

Does the legacy even remain to this day?

Possibly, the way I see it is once the system is in place, there are those who found some exploits to increase wealth and assets; personal gain.

Also, there are various countries that are being siphoned by such persons, they even target poor or not so wealthy countries as well. So much so they don't even bat an eye to the problems that follow soon after because they know it will not effect them, mainly due to the fact that such persons are somehow increasing in revenue while others, common folk are suffering and or becoming poorer, the constant printing of money also increases problems for such people to the point that they'll eventually kick into survival mode, to survive even if it means hurting someone else, which is a strong possibility in the coming months.

[Arauna]

41 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

efinatley have way more time on your hands than I do

I am am almost 69 - and I have been interested in many of these things throughout my life.  That is why I do not remember all the names but my understanding of how it works is still intact

Old money goes back a long way.  The money of the catholic church goes back to the time of the crusades.  Money in Venice, money from the colonies and the beginning of the modern day banking system which is based on usury and lending of money to governments for war.