Regarding Some Common Questions About the Ransom

[John 12.24to28]

5 minutes ago, boyle said:

Where do you think the wicked stand before god?

 

He hasn't judged them yet.

 

5 minutes ago, boyle said:

18 minutes ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

When it says "judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds" it's not talking about some new books of the Bible.

Has anyone suggested that to you that makes you think that way? What does unrighteous really mean to you?

 

Unrighteous just means not doing things the right way. Some unrighteous ones are not wicked.

 

The "new scrolls" teaching of the FDS doesn't fit with the rest of the Bible. There is no where else in the Bible that mentions additional Biblical scrolls in the future. The Bible says not to add to the scrolls. Jehovah won't need new scrolls anyway, because Jesus will be here and he'll just say what needs to be said.

 

5 minutes ago, boyle said:

Does that also mean those that refused to repent?

 

Korah didn't repent before he died. Neither did Solomon, but he was is said to be in Sheol awaiting resurrection.

[John 12.24to28]

Just now, boyle said:

Just making sure. Enjoy your rest! 

 

Thank you! Good night.😌

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

7 hours ago, boyle said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

The "new scrolls" teaching of the FDS doesn't fit with the rest of the Bible. There is no where else in the Bible that mentions additional Biblical scrolls in the future. The Bible says not to add to the scrolls. Jehovah won't need new scrolls anyway, because Jesus will be here and he'll just say what needs to be said.

New Light! Hmm! Do tell. Where are these new scrolls you are talking about?

 

Fake light that has been taught for a long time...

 

"New directions were needed by the nation of Israel under Moses and later by the Christian congregation under “the law of the Christ.” Likewise, the Bible informs us that scrolls will be opened to give us directions in new world living. (Read Revelation 20:12.) These scrolls will most likely set forth Jehovah’s requirements for mankind at that time. By studying these, all people, including resurrected ones, will be able to know God’s will for them. These scrolls will surely give us further insight into Jehovah’s mind. Guided by an ever-increasing understanding of God’s inspired Word along with what will be revealed in the new scrolls..." (wt March 2016 page 22)

 

Revelation 20 is not talking about some kind of new scriptures from God in the future. In the Bible, the word "scrolls" doesn't just mean Bible books. Scrolls were used to document and record non-Biblical things too. The secular records of kings were recorded in scrolls. Messages were sent on scrolls. In visions there were "flying scrolls"... It's the context that shows what kind of scroll is being talked about. Here is that verse in context:

 

"And I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.  And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.  And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.  Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."

 

"Scrolls were opened." It means the records books were opened. It's talking about judgment in context, so these are record scrolls. 

 

"But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life." This is another record scroll or book. It is a record of who will keep living. 

 

"The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." In other words, for a time during the 1,000 years, people will have the chance to show if they want to obey God. They will have some time to repent. If they build up a record of not wanting to change and obey, that is their "things written in in the scrolls according to their deeds." That is their record of their deeds. 

 

The FDS teaches that the "scrolls" mean some person is going to be writing down new books of the Bible that will be used in the 1,000 year reign, but that's not in harmony with the rest of the scriptures. 

[John 12.24to28]

7 hours ago, boyle said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

He hasn't judged them yet.

So, God didn't judge the Israelites?

God didn't judge the Jews?

 

The final judgment hasn't happened yet.

 

Those Israelites and Jews will be resurrected and under better circumstances be given an opportunity to listen and obey God's simple and refreshing ways. 

 

"And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.  And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."

[John 12.24to28]

8 hours ago, boyle said:

Where do you think the wicked stand before god?

 

It depends which god they worship. Some of the wicked stand in a shrine. Some of the wicked stand in a church. Some of the wicked stand in a casino. Some of the wicked stand in a KH. All the gods of that are not Jehovah are unrealities. "Look! All of them are a delusion. Their works are nothing. Their metal images are wind and unreality." Jehovah is the only True God, and He knows those who belong to Him, wherever they are.

 

"Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand."

 

8 hours ago, boyle said:

Sorry, my bad. I thought you understood what translated means in bible terms. It means being removed without experiencing death.

 

Okay, I know it as the word "transferred" but I see what you are saying. Enoch died. The English word "transferred" is just showing the same idea as what God did to Moses and Aaron when they died. When Hebrews says "so as not to see death" it just means the throes of death. Illustratively it might be likened to when a vet puts an animal to sleep. Jehovah caused Adam to go to sleep when he did "surgery" and removed his rib to make Eve. (Kind of like what a geneticist might do today for some kind of cloning thing.) Jehovah caused the soldiers to fall into a sleeplike state when Peter escaped from prison. God caused the men of Saul's army to sleep an extra sleepy sleep when David and Abishai went in to get the spear and water jug. 

 

The Elijah instance is a totally different thing. He just went to another physical location, but he was still alive on earth.

 

8 hours ago, boyle said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

"We"? (All three of you?) How old are you three anyway? I guess I'm still just a "kid".

More wordplay, it's okay. I'm used to twisting and turning objectives. WE, those of us that are dedicated in Christ, and Jehovah's witnesses, should have been explained that from the get go.

 

No, early in this thread I asked how many people @boyle counts as and you said "3"!

 

8 hours ago, boyle said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

I've never been a Bethelite, so I don't really know what you mean.

No worries. If you were around in my time, it would have been better not to have been one. Too many apostate bethelites for my standard of God's justice.

 

What do you really believe about everything, @boyle?

[John 12.24to28]

11 hours ago, boyle said:

Glad to see "witness" is active again, but then again she never stopped. lol! 😂

According to the Audrey persona, Jesus and Satans battle will go down like this.

 

Brutal cat fight.mp4 3.34 MB · 0 downloads

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haha...actually first Jesus has to throw all the trash out of heaven (Satan hasn't been cast down here yet.) "Trash out of heaven" makes me think of this song...

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

16 hours ago, boyle said:

Are you asking God through his earthly organization to forgive those that refuse to repent? How does that work? REPENT, is the key word and excerise. 

 

The blood of the Christ is superior to the decrees of any organization on earth.

 

The Father does not want to destroy His own kids. He will protect His children, and if some of the kids decide they will not turn around in actions that will harm themselves and others, well then, yes, God will remove those ones - but it's not His first option as if on some checklist or flowchart. He is a Real Father. To understand "repentance" means thinking about it the way a father would, not the way a business manager would.

 

The illustration about the prodigal son shows the father ran to embrace his son while the son was a long way off before the son had a chance to "show repentance". The son didn't have to sit silently for a year and have nobody talk to him. The son didn't even say "I'm sorry" yet when the father ran to embrace him.

 

Jesus was explaining what Jehovah is like. Jehovah is not like the way the FDS treats people.

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

the way the FDS treats people

 

Jesus illustrated it in the gospels...

RPReplay_Final1682433091.mov RPReplay_Final1682433374.mov

[John 12.24to28]

12 hours ago, boyle said:

12 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

No, I think they were asleep.

So, the thunder, lighting and the roaring rain didn't wake anyone? Doesn't sound like commonsense to me.

 

I wasn't there when the Flood happened. Were you there?

 

Jehovah could have put the people to sleep in death first and then swept them away. (Dead people sleep soundly during thunderstorms.)

 

Also, at different times Jehovah has "closed up the womb" of women. Like when "Jehovah had made all the women of the house of A·bimʹe·lech barren because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife." The Bible record shows that Noah and his wife didn't have more kids right away after Shem Ham and Japheth. It also shows that Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives didn't have kids right away either, even though people were quite prolific in those days. Jehovah knew the date He scheduled for the Flood. Is it possible there were no little kids or babies around when the Flood came, because Jehovah had closed up the wombs of all the women those fifty years they were building the ark? We don't know. We weren't there, but we do know Jehovah.

 

"Then Abraham approached and said: “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked?  Suppose there are 50 righteous men within the city. Will you, then, sweep them away and not pardon the place for the sake of the 50 righteous who are inside it?  It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?”  

 

"Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.”"

 

""Say to them, ‘“As surely as I live,” declares Jehovah, “I will do to you just what I have heard you speak!  In this wilderness your corpses will fall, yes, the whole number of you from 20 years old and up who were registered, all of you who have murmured against me.  None of you will enter into the land that I swore to have you reside in except Caʹleb the son of Je·phunʹneh and Joshua the son of Nun. And I will bring in your children, who you said would become plunder, and they will get to know the land that you have rejected.""

 

"But Jehovah said: “You felt sorry for the bottle-gourd plant, which you did not work for, nor did you make it grow; it grew in one night and perished in one night.  Should I not also feel sorry for Ninʹe·veh the great city, in which there are more than 120,000 men who do not even know right from wrong, as well as their many animals?"

 

"For I will declare the name of Jehovah. 

Tell about the greatness of our God! 

The Rock, perfect is his activity, 

For all his ways are justice.  

A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; 

Righteous and upright is he."

[John 12.24to28]

Since Proverbs 21:18 says "The wicked one is a ransom for the righteous one" how can it be said Jesus, a righteous one, is a ransom for the wicked?

 

Wicked ones harass the righteous.

When Jehovah steps in and annihilates the wicked ones, then the righteous ones can have peace.

Pharoah is a case in point. When Pharoah was removed, the Israelites had some peace.

When Haman was removed, Mordecai and Esther had some peace.

When the Nephilim were removed, Noah and his family had some peace.

 

When Jehovah stepped in to annihilate those wicked ones, then the righteous had peace - they weren't being harassed anymore.

 

Also the scales of justice demand "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth". In mathematics, you have to balance the equation. If you multiply one side by 1/4th, you have to multiply the other side by 1/4th. You can't just do one side. It is a universal principle.

 

There is an interesting function in mathematics known as taking the "absolute value" of an expression or number. If you take the absolute value of a negative number, it cancels out the negative. The ransom of Jesus does for us what the absolute value function does for a negative number. It turns it into a positive.

 

Anyone who murders, kills, hates, sins against God and their fellow man, would normally deserve the same treatment according to the universal principle of balance and justice. However, because of God's love and wisdom, he used the ransom of His Son to provide a judicial means to cancel out the negative while still adhering to the universal principles of balance, like applying the "absolute value" function.

 

Jesus was beat. He was tortured. He was harassed by demons. He was reproached by people. He was treated horribly even though he didn't deserve it. He was killed while labeled as a criminal. He was hung up on a stake. He took the punishment for the wicked as if he was the wicked one. He paid the ransom of the wicked for the wicked, so that anyone who wants to accept it doesn't have to pay the price demanded by the universal principles of justice and balance. They can benefit from the absolute value of the ransom.

 

“He himself took our sicknesses and carried our diseases.”

 

"Truly he himself carried our sicknesses, 

And he bore our pains.  

But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. 

But he was pierced for our transgression; 

He was crushed for our errors.  

He bore the punishment for our peace, 

And because of his wounds we were healed."

 

"For he was cut off from the land of the living; 

Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke."

 

"But it was Jehovah’s will to crush him, and he let him become sick. 

If you will present his life as a guilt offering, 

He will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, 

And through him the delight of Jehovah will have success.  

Because of his anguish, he will see and be satisfied. 

By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, 

Will bring a righteous standing to many people, 

And their errors he will bear.  

For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, 

And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, 

Because he poured out his life even to death 

And was counted among the transgressors; 

He carried the sin of many people, 

And he interceded for the transgressors."

 

Any wicked who want to can benefit. Jesus said they could. He has the authority to pour out the application of his blood, its absolute value. He has the authority to forgive sins. The wicked who want to benefit just have to try to stop hurting themselves and others. They have to try to be sorry about the bad things. They just have to do their best to keep following Jesus. (He isn't healing anybody at present, but that part will come soon.) He will help them. He loves them.

 

He didn't go through all that suffering for perfect people. He did it because he loves the ones that didn't turn around yet. He did it before they repented. There is still time for them to turn around. But at a certain point during Armageddon, it will be too late. We're not at that time yet. There is still time right now.

 

"Love hopes all things."

[John 12.24to28]

2 minutes ago, boyle said:

5 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

The FDS teaches that the "scrolls" mean some person is going to be writing down new books of the Bible that will be used in the 1,000 year reign, but that's not in harmony with the rest of the scriptures.

Incorrect. That is your personal fable, lie and assumption.

 

No it's not, sunshine. It's right in the Watchtower what they said.

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

17 minutes ago, boyle said:

I keep forgetting I'm working with people that haven't gone beyond a master's degree. Like I said, my bad.

 

I don't have a master's degree. I only have a "BA". (Although in retrospect, I think any degree that includes evolutionary theory should be called a "BS".)

 

17 minutes ago, boyle said:

I believe in not giving former Jehovah's witnesses a false voice.

 

There are some people who have really nice false voices (aka falsettos). I think that many former Jehovah's witnesses have found a way to stay alive while separated from the organization at present. Jehovah has cared for them, even if they are unaware of it. Jehovah will gather all his little sheep at the appointed time. 

 

 

"Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah:  

 

‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “because my sheep have become prey, food for every wild beast of the field, for there was no shepherd, and my shepherds did not search for my sheep; rather, they kept feeding themselves and did not feed my sheep,”’ therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah.  This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘I am against the shepherds, and I will demand an accounting of them for my sheep, and I will dismiss them from feeding my sheep, and the shepherds will no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouth, and they will no longer be food for them.’” 

 

“‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am, and I myself will search for my sheep, and I will care for them.  I will care for my sheep like a shepherd who has found his scattered sheep and is feeding them. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered in the day of clouds and thick gloom.   I will bring them out from the peoples and collect them together from the lands and bring them into their land and feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams and by all the dwelling places of the land.   In a good pasture I will feed them, and the land where they graze will be on Israel’s high mountains. They will lie down there in a good grazing land, and they will feed on choice pastures on the mountains of Israel.” 

 

“‘“I myself will feed my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.   “The lost one I will search for, the stray I will bring back, the injured I will bandage, and the weak I will strengthen; but the fat one and the strong one I will annihilate. I will feed that one with judgment.”