Christian Denominations Chart - Starting w/ the Commentary on JW's

[John 12.24to28]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Support for polygamy, slavery, wars, conquest of other people's property in wars, class differences, patriarchy that does not recognize that women are as valuable as men..., are some of the things that began to change with the advent of Christianity. But even today, some topics are still subject to discussion.

 

It is interesting how some people "throw away the Bible" as a source of wisdom because of these older accounts; whereas others try to make rules for modern society based on these older accounts - when in truth they are there as a historical record for us. 

 

For example, the Watchtower says that having Bethel is like having the temple organization of old with singers and workers and leaders and so on, and they look at the two witness rule and try to make it fit for today. They try to say shunning is like the old stoning. But in all actuality, none of those things are for today. Jesus did not set up a commune arrangement with singers and tithes and Levites. Jesus did not say to stone anybody figuratively. (If he wanted to he could have, but he didn't say anything remotely like that.) That was the old way. 

 

"Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse.  Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." (Matthew 9:16,17)

 

People don't like change. They get comfortable with the old way. It seems easier to have rules than to think for ourselves. Jesus said that's how people are.

 

"No one after drinking old wine wants new, for he says, ‘The old is nice.’” (Luke 5:39)

 

But we all have to grow up sometime.

 

"But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ." (Ephesians 4:15)

 

The old way with the rules on polygamy and regulating slavery and so on was appropriate at the time, because the cultures the people lived among did all those things. They were a stiff-necked people and they weren't ready for the "new wine". In many ways, the people today are stiff-necked too. But the new wine is coming anyway. It is the appointed time. The training wheels are about to be removed, and the Way of the Christ will shine brightly.

 

"I pray that he may grant you through the abundance of his glory to be made mighty in the man you are inside, with power through his spirit,  and that through your faith you may have the Christ dwell in your hearts with love. May you be rooted and established on the foundation,  in order that with all the holy ones you may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth,  and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness that God gives." (Ephesians 3:16-19)

[Srecko Sostar]

48 minutes ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia

An interesting read. One has to ask oneself some questions. GB often repeats the mantra that Jesus did not promise "perfect spiritual food", so the interpretation of WTJWorg has sometimes been wrong, and will continue to be, it seems.

The main point of WTJWorg is that spiritual food comes from the Source aka Jesus and travels through the "Only Channel" to the believers.
What kind of "error" is it about? Random mistake in communication between Jesus and GB? Or is it about flaws of character in Jesus or in GB?

[Pudgy]

There is at least one other choice that I can think of immediately:

1.) sometimes they guess, and guess wrong and when they do they never apologize…… Never ever…… And so they have to cover it up.

[Pudgy]

You completely misunderstood what SS was saying. Read it again.

[John 12.24to28]

4 hours ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

How do former members miss the mark?

 

3 hours ago, Fausto Hoover said:

Can apostates and former members refute the claim? Do they have authority or Dominion over the faithful by God?

 

3 hours ago, Fausto Hoover said:

Who holds the moral compass in the eyes of God?

 

😆 people looking to "Greek philosophy" instead of Jesus for the answers...lol hahaha...

 

[John 12.24to28]

2 hours ago, Pudgy said:

There is at least one other choice that I can think of immediately:

1.) sometimes they guess, and guess wrong and when they do they never apologize…… Never ever…… And so they have to cover it up.

 

Jehovah's going to expose it soon!😃

 

"The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,

And the waters will flood out the hiding place."

 

(Isaiah 28:17)

 

(The plagues of Revelation will expose the lies. That's what the hail is really about. During the great tribulation, all the false teachings will be completely exposed. The foundation will be laid bare.)

[John 12.24to28]

Jehovah hasn't changed. The Mosaic Law was perfect for its day. It was specific to the Israelites. They had lived in a nation, Egypt, with many graven images and spiritistic practices and slavery. They were moving to a place where there was polygamy and child sacrifice and immorality of all kinds. People killed each other with swords. War was all over the place. Jehovah regulated what they knew. Jehovah was patient with them. Jehovah hasn't changed.

 

Jehovah didn't agree with violent warfare, but He knew those people. They like to fight. Look at Levi and Simeon back in Shechem. They killed all the males and the animals. Later those sons of Israel wanted to murder their own brother. Jehovah regulated warfare so that those guys wouldn't be even more bloodthirsty.

 

Jehovah didn't approve of polygamy, but He knew those people could hardly handle not fornicating, so He was patient with them and regulated polygamy until Jesus got here. He forbade bestiality and other stuff. He knew they viewed women as possessions. That wasn't Jehovah's way, but He knew those people wouldn't listen if He made all the changes at once. Jehovah was patient with them.

 

When Jesus came, he told them some more things to work on, but he still didn't give them everything to change at once.

 

"“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.  However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come." (John 16:12,13)

 

The people were used to worshipping at a temple, but that isn't necessary. The people were physical minded. It's the same today. People want a physical leader. They want a place. They want a KH instead of a house to worship at. They want a governing body class to tell them what to do, just like the Israelites of old wanted a human king to lead them. It's the imperfect human inclination.

 

Jehovah knew this would happen with the congregations. Jesus foretold it would happen, people rising up and lording it over the flock, false teachings creeping in. But he also foretold it would end. It will be cleared up when Jesus gets here. In the meantime, we have to hold on to the truth we have.

 

"‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut. And I know that you have a little power, and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name. Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying—look! I will make them come and bow before your feet and make them know that I have loved you.  Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.  I am coming quickly. Keep holding fast to what you have..." (Revelation 3:8-10)

 

The Christian congregation was commanded to abstain from blood. We are not under the Mosaic Law, but we are still under the command to abstain from immorality and blood. When Jesus gets here, he will make more refinements, but until then we are wise to cling to the truth we have.

 

 

[Pudgy]

I presume the best motives to most people as a default option, so I would assume that everybody is doing the best they can as far as scriptural accuracy  and knowledge and obedience.

I am heavily inclined to cut most people a lot of slack and in doing things wrong, not aware of what they are doing.

Remember, Jesus forgave the soldiers that were torturing him to death, while they were doing it, because they knew not what they were doing.   Killing people as ordered was the only thing they knew.

Just as Jehovah completely changed his mind about the destruction of Nineveh, seeing the limited progress that mankind is made, he may change his mind about all of this. 

If he does, I suspect for awhile we’re going to be just like Jonah, super ticked off because we did all that work, apparently for nothing.

And I am specifically talking only about the Governing Body.

And besides, they don’t answer to me … they answer to Jehovah God.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Fausto Hoover said:

Isaiah 44:18 New International Version

18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.

Mark 10:34 King James Version

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 King James Version

WTJWorg is considered themselves as "God's Chosen People". The words of Isaiah were addressed to the Jews who were in BCE because of the Covenant. Analogous to your theology, these words are for every JW in the organization, not for those individuals or people outside the JW Church.

[John 12.24to28]

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I presume the best motives to most people as a default option, so I would assume that everybody is doing the best they can as far as scriptural accuracy  and knowledge and obedience.

 

That is because you are a sweetheart and a gentleman.☺️

 

I am a brat. (I do not do all the things described in the lyrics to this song, but the basic overall bratness level is the same...)

 

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I am heavily inclined to cut most people a lot of slack and in doing things wrong, not aware of what they are doing.

 

That is always wise.🙂 I know you are wise, that is one of the reasons why I like you. I consider you to be my older brother, and I value your opinions and advice.

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Remember, Jesus forgave the soldiers that were torturing him to death, while they were doing it, because they knew not what they were doing.   Killing people as ordered was the only thing they knew.

 

The GB is not beholden to me, so I don't really have anything to "forgive"...I have been hurt by some of the doctrines they teach, but as far as personal grudges or something, they're all good with me as far as that's concerned.

 

When Jeremiah preached about the destruction of Jerusalem, he didn't have a personal vendetta against any of those guys, even though they locked him up and hurt him at times, threatened him, tried to make his life miserable. Jeremiah was just doing his assignment. Plus Jeremiah knew ahead of time about the destruction coming. It was for real. It wasn't a "maybe this might happen." He knew for sure. He could see it in his mind's eye. He knew Jehovah's word would come true. That motivated him.

 

I know all these things are coming too. I know Jehovah is going to remove them, the whole "FDS" thing and the Bethel thing - they're going to be completely gone. It's as if it's already done, Jehovah's Word is a sure thing.

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Just as Jehovah completely changed his mind about the destruction of Nineveh, seeing the limited progress that mankind is made, he may change his mind about all of this. 

 

Jehovah's Word will come true, all of it, which includes removing all the weeds. 

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

If he does, I suspect for awhile we’re going to be just like Jonah, super ticked off because we did all that work, apparently for nothing.

 

It's never a waste to warn people. I don't want to look back and wish I had warned them at Bethel more. I am 100% confident all the false doctrines will be removed at Jehovah's appointed time. When that appointed time comes, anybody who clings to those doctrines will be removed too, if they refuse to repent.

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

And I am specifically talking only about the Governing Body.

 

Yeah, I know. 😌

 

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

And besides, they don’t answer to me … they answer to Jehovah God.

 

Yes, we all answer to Him..."to the one more is given, more is expected". If we know there is a storm coming and Jehovah asks us to warn people, we just have to do it. I KNOW Bethel is going to be the first place attacked by the UN at the beginning of the great tribulation. Jehovah has let me know by means of His Word and His holy spirit. I am just a nobody, but I have to tell them. It's not a waste. Jehovah wants me to tell them. He's the One who let me have all their emails. He's the One that had me meet up with Robert Hendriks last weekend. He is the One that sends any of His witnesses for any of the assignments they have, that Jehovah may get the praise when His Word comes true.

 

The plagues of Revelation are figurative. The hail, the destruction, a lot of it is talking about the religious institutions being removed. That the governing body as individuals will possibly survive the destruction of the Bethels is implied by Jesus' words here:

 

"The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,  and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.  At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen." (Matthew 13:39-43)

 

"...the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know,  "and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be." (Matthew 24:50,51)

 

"...whereas the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be." (Matthew 8:12)

 

In order to be "weeping" and "gnashing teeth" a person still has to be alive. The "fiery furnace" is figurative in those illustrations. It's symbolic of the great tribulation, and the false teachings and hypocrites in the organization being removed. The angels haven't removed them yet. It's not until the great tribulation starts that these illustrations take place. 

 

Additionally, the plagues in Revelation show that the word "killed" is figurative. Some people become dead to their former way of life after they see the destruction of false religion. It's a figurative "killing". 

 

When the GB loses their "kingdom" (the fake one they've got an empire over at present) then hopefully they repent. They like to preach that Jehovah's already got everything all decided by the start of the tribulation, but they're wrong.

 

@Pudgy, that "anointed" business isn't fake. There are people who are really anointed. They're not perfect people, but it's kind of like if you knew Latin and then you hear somebody speaking Pig Latin, and you're like, "uh, yeah, that's not Latin - that's Pig Latin." 

 

Are the governing body members really anointed? I don't know. I haven't talked to any of them personally. All I know is that when it says in one of John's letters "the anointing is teaching you" it's true. So either they're (the GB) really mentally slow, or they're really grieving the holy spirit by means of embracing some dark stuff. Hopefully you're right and they''ll all repent. Thankfully we don't have to judge that. Jesus will make it clear in time.

[John 12.24to28]

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

At the same time the Org.  does not allow an individual member of his Church to be like Jesus, who as a Jew realized his own autonomy in the projection and interpretation of the Law. Of course, he paid for it with his own head in the end, but he remained independent and unsubordinate to the Church Clergy of his time.

 

I am not sure, @Srecko Sostar, if this is how you meant that word: "Unsubordinate: Not subordinate; not of inferior rank, dignity, class, or order."

 

Jesus was truly superior to everyone on earth, since he was the only perfect person and he was God's firstborn son, in that way he was "unsubordinate". While he could be considered "independent" from sin, he lowered himself to become a slave and was willing to lower himself to obey the direction of the imperfect organization of his time, even though that organization was extremely corrupt.

 

He told us to imitate his example, to follow his way. Jesus submitted himself to the authority of the organization bearing Jehovah's name at that time, but Jesus did not compromise his integrity. Today, we can submit to the direction of those in authority (whether it be the authorities in a congregation or the authorities in the local governments). But if those authorities (any of them) ask us to do something that would lead to a compromise of our integrity, then we resolutely "obey God as ruler rather than men."

 

Jesus was willing to obey the secular authorities as they put him through a kangaroo court trial with false charges and no justice. Jesus was willing to submit to a course of abuse that was designed to humiliate him (although he despised shame and the real humiliation was on his persecutors) and then he submitted to death on a torture stake. 

 

Sometimes it is possible to remain in a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and keep integrity. A lot of people feel "cognitive dissonance" but are able to continue in the congregation, knowing that in time Jehovah will clear things up. Some people are not able to conscientiously remain in the organization at this time and disassociate themselves with it because of conscience. Others are willing to remain but are kicked out. Many people in the congregations are just ignorant of the false doctrines at present and go on their merry way in a temporary peace. 

 

Jehovah knows the heart. To the degree possible, we strive to imitate the Christ. As far as autonomy, or self-government, we exercise our free will to submit to Jehovah's will for us, even though sometimes it's distasteful at present. It was distasteful at first for Jesus to go through what he did, but it worked out for a blessing.

 

"And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 26:39)

 

Jesus self-governed himself in a way that showed immense strength. He did not take up a sword or a gun. He did not fear death or torture or what people thought. He knew what he was going to face, he trusted God's projection and interpretation, or will, for him, and he went through with it.

[John 12.24to28]

16 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who gave the Law at the time of Moses? YHVH. Who abolished the law in 29 BCE? YHVH. The Law changed because God himself changed in his treatment of man.

 

Jehovah hasn't changed. He has always been patient. Sometimes when you are growing an unstable young tree you stake it. When the tree gets stable enough, there is no need for the stakes anymore.

 

Jehovah is like a gardener or arborist. His goal in protecting and training us hasn't changed. The Mosaic Law was not a permanent feature; it was a temporary structure that has served its purpose.

 

16 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The law through Moses is still alive and there are people who obey it. Therefore, the Law remained unchanged. But at the same time it was changed because there are more people who don't follow it. Thus the very purpose of the Law changed, because it became dead. Especially if we look at it theologically as something that was interrupted by the act of Jesus' sacrifice by which it fulfilled, terminated and ceased to exist as an eternal decree for Jewish generations. It seems confusing.

 

The Word of God is alive in that it is powerful to help us, but the culture and communities the Mosaic Law was designed for is dead. We can still learn things from studying that law, but we are not under it. Some people might try to follow that Mosaic Law, but that's kind of silly and unnecessary. Jesus' sacrifice didn't "interrupt" the Law - the whole point of the Law was to lead to Christ.

 

It's kind of like how the body of a pregnant woman forms a whole new organ, the placenta, during her pregnancy. The purpose of the placenta is to feed and protect the developing child. The placenta is a large organ that plays the role of several different body systems at once, including respiratory, endocrine, renal, immunological, and digestive systems. Once the baby comes out, there is no need for that organ anymore, so it comes out too. The placenta didn't grow to be part of the body forever; it has a temporary function, an amazing one, but it's just temporary. The main important thing is the child. 

 

Jesus was the purpose of having the Law, just like the child is the purpose of having the placenta. Jehovah's purpose didn't change. It has an amazing process. But at some point, it's time to "cut the cord" to the Mosaic Law.🙂