Christian Denominations Chart - Starting w/ the Commentary on JW's

[Space Merchant]

54 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Can the biblical text be completely trusted?

The first Bible was created by the Catholic Church.

Then the Protestants made their own Bible.

Afterwards, WTJWorg intervened and made their own Bible/s (few versions).

And to make everything more interesting, theological minds of different religions have created intricate interpretations and are harassing lost human souls with them day and night. Other souls who are not considered lost, but have found meaning for themselves in one of the interpretations will not fare any better than other people..., For time and chance happen to all.

The most simple answer is, anyone who is following the earliest manuscripts vs anyone who follows the later ones, as to what is known, JWs do not use later manuscripts, this is the case with anyone who revises to reflect the earliest sources possible, this is something often times I mention time and time again on this forum. This is also why you have KJV-Onlyist who constantly go after anyone who isn't using solely the KJV, hence, in this regard, Jehovah's Witnesses, then they go for Non-Trinitarians.

That being said, if there has not been any revisions, you'd probably believe God made unicorns, as @Cos believed.

[John 12.24to28]

2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

So the question is, if excommunication was an issue, why did Jesus establish it and why did Paul actually remove wrongdoers from the congregation if, in your words, it is a wrong practice? And secondly, you never explained how anyone, and or any Jehovah’s Witnesses should deal with a wrongdoer, knowing unrepentant sins can ruin a congregation community.

Paul excommunicated Christian who were unrepentant and continued to practice sexual immorality. Paul also excommunicated Hymenaeus and Alexander. Was Paul in the wrong?

 

@Equivocation, Jesus did not establish the practice of shunning as it is done today. Jesus ate with sinners. Jesus talked with and ate with Zacchaeus before Zacchaeus repented. The Pharisees were the ones who shunned people, and after the apostles died many old Pharisaical traditions crept into the organization. Ostracism was practiced in Greek culture. The Pharisees loved adopting pagan practices.

 

The context of Paul's words helps us to understand them better.

 

"This instruction I entrust to you, my child Timothy, in harmony with the prophecies that were made about you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare,  holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith.  Hy·me·naeʹus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme."

 

(1 Timothy 1:18-20)

 

In context, Paul's first letter to Timothy included counsel to reject those who teach false stories. "Reject" doesn't mean treat a person like the way the Greeks ostracized people. Paul's second letter explained more about Hymenaeus...

 

"But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them.  These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some."

 

(2 Timothy 2:16-18)

 

It was the teachings that were to be rejected. Jesus said to love our enemies, to feed our enemies when they are hungry. That would imply talking to them and even eating with them at times.

 

Paul's words were not some kind of cut-and-paste method of "excommunication technique". The men mentioned in First and Second Timothy were not being disciplined for being adulterers, drunkards, homosexuals. They were being disciplined for being false teachers. Paul was telling Timothy not to let such men take the lead in teaching in the congregation.

 

Paul's counsel to the wrongdoer in Corinth was a different situation. That man was living immorally. Everybody in the congregation knew but was still eating the Memorial with him. The counsel to not eat the Memorial meal with the man is totally different than the counsel given here about Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander. 

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Can the biblical text be completely trusted?

The first Bible was created by the Catholic Church.

Then the Protestants made their own Bible.

Afterwards, WTJWorg intervened and made their own Bible/s (few versions).

And to make everything more interesting, theological minds of different religions have created intricate interpretations and are harassing lost human souls with them day and night. Other souls who are not considered lost, but have found meaning for themselves in one of the interpretations will not fare any better than other people..., For time and chance happen to all.

 

I have a car. It's not perfect, but it gets me where I need to go. Even though it's got issues, I don't throw it out, because it's all I've got to go in, unless I want to walk everywhere.

 

Until we can read Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek and find the original manuscripts (which are no longer in existence) we're going to have to do the best we can with what we've got - imperfectly copied and translated manuscripts and translations. We do have Jehovah's holy spirit to help us apply the Bible counsel; His holy spirit which doesn't corrode or get lost. When we prayerfully follow the Bible direction to the best of our abilities in harmony with holy spirit, we will get through better than if we didn't have Bible principles. 

 

When Jesus gets here, he will tell us directly what to do. He's not here yet. The Bible is the temporary means to get through this mess of a world. It's the best book we've got to direct us. Some people want to throw it out, but I don't recommend it. I've tried three different ways: (1) No Bible direction (2) Bible direction mixed with poisoned publications (3) Bible direction. It's no contest - hands down in my experience following God's Word is the only way to fly.

[John 12.24to28]

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

I don't see how Christian Values and Bible study amongst family members is false.

 

I agree with you - Christian values and Bible study amongst family members isn't false, but it is a disfellowshipping offense according to the organization.

 

(That's what I got "disfellowshipped" for. When, motivated by Christian values, I protected my family by reporting abuse, and when I shared the scriptural reasons for doing so with my spiritual family, I was falsely labeled a reviler causing divisions and "disfellowshipped".)

 

Here are screenshots of some of the emails with the local elders. The branch was also sent copies of the information, as well as the GB, the legal department and the service department. They did not follow Bible principles. They protected the abusers and used the disfellowshipping doctrine to remove one of the victims in hopes that their racket of lording it over the flock wouldn't be disturbed.

 

I wrote and wrote to GB to help because they always say "we love you very much." They don't love us. They didn't reply until after my disfellowshipping was announced locally. One of the elders here has a son at Bethel, Jeffrey Fletcher, who is one of Mark Sanderson's secretaries. Interestingly, after my disfellowshipping was announced, my letters from Mark Sanderson came back with a big red "REJECTED" stamped on them.

 

[Space Merchant]

@AudreyAnnaNana Unfortunately, the college student is correct. I spoke with you before regarding Excommunication, even pointed out factual and Biblical notions concerning the practice, which was given to the church. Although it is a practice, I argued that some people can abuse the power of church discipline. When church discipline is not used, it creates problems, even Satanic ones, and over the years I mentioned these threats, some of which both @Srecko Sostar and @Witness defended, even going as far as to water down Jesus' Kingship. Although Excommunication cut ties with the church, it does not cut ties with the family, which is often said here, and even recently, and Expelling, before Christianity and during the existence of it, as been something that existed. So it was not created by JWs, the practice predates them. The Bible describes the process of church discipline in several passages. The final step of church discipline is excommunication—a removal from the church. Matthew 18:15–17, seeing that it was already mentioned, Jesus teaches His disciples about excommunication. The Lord details a multi-step approach for responding to sinful offenses in the church community, as for its establishment, we can look to the references, such as Matthew 16 concerning binding and loosening the church.

 

@Equivocation Who said this? Restorationist Religious leaders do not and or don't ponder on the notion of being like God, equal to him, but yes, it would be a contradiction, a big one. If that was even a true statement, Jehovah's Witnesses would easily be put in the same category as New Aged Christians.

In one of my debates on here, I brought up marks of True Christians also, as is, of false Christians. Perhaps I should salvage this and make it a thread. In addition to that, The teaching of Christian values and studying the Bible, with oneself and or others, even family members, is core teachings, in fact, this is how I was brought up, learned a lot regarding God and Christ early on.

 

That being said, bottomline, Excommunication is Biblical, and it has it's origins rooted in the Bible, to state otherwise seems more out of emotion and opinion, so much so, to ignore some notions in the Bible, simply put, it is used to remove wrongdoers.

The below is just surface level examples of what happens when you do NOT remove wrongdoers from a church, mind you, some of these folks are noted as allies to a few disgruntled EXJWs...

 

NOTE: There is another where a pastor convinced women to de-robe themselves so he can bathe them, that would be a bit too graphic to even post here, concerning the fact, said video got people censored, but the iceberg goes deeper than that.

When those who teach bad as good, do not be surprise of what they do to a community, who, had already given themselves up to Babylon, and soon, will be your enemy in the near future.

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

 

If you don’t mind hanging some innocent people rough justice is very efficient way of keeping a town orderly.

AND consolidating and entrenching the authority and power of the Sheriff’s department.

It’s not the fact that people are being hung, it is that they’re being hung Not in accordance with the law, due process, common sense, and a deep sense of justice. 

Even Jesus said to the whore … “Go your way and sin no more”, which if memory serves, the Society removed those scriptures from the NWT.

It’s in all the other Bibles I checked.

John 8:1-11 IS MISSING!

 

Because those verses are fake. a False narrative. You are free to use it as an example, as you wish, but not the best of ideas to consider it canon because then it opens the door to notions of Trinitarianism, i.e. what you see for 1 John 5:7 in the NWT, ESV or NIV vs the KJV. But the reality is, there are some people out there who will call out non Bible canons, granted, JWs already run into these types. I see people get called out even in debates regarding it.

[Space Merchant]

I see the word "worship" being thrown around here. What people tend to forget is worship has literally several meanings, when it comes to religious serving God as well as showing honor. worship does not always mean religious worship, thus making the same mistakes @Srecko Sostar @Cos and @Witness have made in the past.

In short, showing honor to someone does not result religious worship in the same sense of God, so I do not see where these notions that religious leader of said faith community said themselves of taking that spot, that isn't only New Ageism, but it goes around what the Restorationist roots are. Me showing some honor to Servant of El Shaddai, Brown, Kel, and or Soldier of God does not make I see them as above God, I honor them for what they contribute to combat Mainstream Christianity.

  That being said, there is one too many of these discussion regarding this since 2017 and onward, gets a bit silly to resurrect these same discussions, likewise, with some church practices, core teachings, etc.

Biblical Facts, as is factual information, and so forth always outweighs unverified opinions, or anything of the mainstream.

On 3/8/2018 at 5:16 PM, Space Merchant said:

On the contrary they have, if you even took into account of what I just explained previously. proskuneo also means worship (http://biblehub.com/greek/4352.htm), as well as obeisance, honor, reverence, homage, bow to/down to, etc. The very word that Cos, an Anti-JW around here, didn't get through his head, hence the heavy refuting to each of  his response drove him away from this section of the forums, in addition to hims caught lying, for him using John 8:44 backfired on him.

1 Corinthians 15 verses 27 and 28 does not imply of which you said in regards to the following: worship to Jesus is perfectly acceptable to God.

You must remember as to why God subjected all things to him, and also strongly remember of what God had said in regards to religiously worship and servitude him, don't add to God's word, friend for the very account those verses are under is in regards to The Resurrection of the Dead (Risen Christ).

Yes, we are to honor the Son, in turn honoring the Father, but as I told Cos before, taking away religious worship of the Father and doing such to the Son and he alone will only spell a not so pleasant response from God, for Jesus himself, he even taught it is God the Father we must worship, remember when you quoted the account of the Samaritan woman, same thing.

You really need to be careful.

In addition to that, verses 27 and 28 have several other verses that they connect to, which further disproves your claim.

For Jesus' response to Satan was clear as the blue sky and the sea: ‘You shall worship the Lord [YHWH] your God and him only shall you serve. - Matthew 4:10 (see Deuteronomy 5:9, 6:13, 10:20 and Luke 4:8).

That being said, when one considers "religious worship" be sure to know to whom you are showing this "religious worship" to. For the idea or practice of "religious worship" to God's Son, Jesus calls in the category of Arianism, which is still a belief that is practiced today.

You really have to be careful and not take the word proskuneo with a grain of salt, for better understanding of what that word means will make you very well aware of the word and how it is used in scripture and where it is used, for many translations tend to just throw the word "worship" everywhere proskuneo is even found. For such a word have several meanings, one of which includes the word worship.

 

On 11/7/2018 at 5:33 PM, Space Merchant said:

Proskuneo can man many things but Jesus was never religious worshiped. If we are to say he was worshiped, what of Lot tot he Angels? Abraham to the Hittites, surely the latter isn't God yet worship and homage was done - it does not equate to religious worship. That being said an act of worship and or homage does not make that God, and those who religious worship and give self sacrifice to God know of whom they truly render worship and servitude to.

[John 12.24to28]

8 hours ago, Equivocation said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

@Equivocation, I just got back from the 2023 Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses. Some people who have known me and claimed to be my friends for two decades were willing to treat me as if I am invisible for no reason at all except that they follow the commands of men ahead of the command of God.

Well that is unfortunate, but from the looks of it, maybe you were excommunicated? That disciplinary action made by elders results in congregation ties being cut, but it doesn't stop you from attending meetings or listening to talks. That action wasn't made by man, but if you really look into where it came from, it came from Jesus and later applied by the early Christians, for instance, Paul who instructed the Corinthians. Even if someone is excommunicated, elders can make the attempt to meet with and talk to the person to see what's up.

 

Dear brother, @Equivocation, I know in "theory" they tell everybody "it doesn't stop you from attending meetings or listening to talks, but that's not the reality, just like it's not the reality that "it came from Jesus". Jesus would not approve of what goes on in these disfellowshippings. Let me show you what I mean.

 

Here are some communications with the elders in congregation before they disfellowshipped me. They were mad because I obeyed Jesus' words and Bible principles. I wouldn't say Amen to hypocritical prayers so when I turned off my audio/video during Zoom meetings they took away that "privilege". Then when meetings resumed in person they revoked my "privilege" to attend on the basis that I had sent emails to the friends asking for help and warning about abuse in the congregation.

 

Then they lied to the local police department in order to get a trespassing ban against me. After that, they set up a judicial hearing at the KH so I couldn't attend, but when I told the friends in the congregation about the bogus charges the elder went back to the police department and said he didn't mean it about the "harassment" charges so they were dropped (he had actually been emailing me on a regular basis to do work for him on the territories right up until the judicial hearing scheduling). The elders got the trespassing ban removed but they didn't tell me, they just said it was removed for the day of the judicial hearing, so I attended and then appealed. They set up the appeal at a different KH and never told me the ban was removed until this year when I went to request to go to the Memorial. When I wrote to the KH post office box or emailed them they do not respond.

 

@EquivocationI sent all this info also to Bethel. They don't care. They are wolves, not shepherds. They don't care about the sheep. It's fake. It's about the money and the prominence. If they cared, they would talk to the sheep who ask for help. Many of the friends are just going along with all the disfellowshipping doctrine stuff because they are indoctrinated and think that's how to obey Jehovah, but Jehovah hates it. They are following commands of men as doctrines. It doesn't please Jehovah at all.

[John 12.24to28]

57 minutes ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

The following is a timeline tracing the history of Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christianity

 

 

That timeline is interesting, however it does incorrectly place the writing of the Didache to 80 CE (+/-20) as if it was written timewise along with the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Scholars disagree as to the actual date the Didache was written. Here is what another Wikipedia article on the Didache says about the date:

 

 

The reason we know the date is incorrect is because of the contents of the Didache. The Didache apostatizes from what the apostles taught in several areas. Jesus, Paul, and John foretold that would happen after the apostles died. Since John wrote Revelation around 96 CE, the Didache would not have been in circulation yet by that time of 80 CE.

 

Many of the traditions described in the Didache appear to have been reintroduced old Pharisaical traditions, such as special days for fasting, specific directions on the temperature of the baptismal water as well as an alternative form of baptism by sprinkling water on the head instead of full immersion, and specifically worded prayers to be recited three times a day. The modern disfellowshipping tradition of not talking to someone being shunned (like what the Pharisees did in kicking people out of the synagogue) is also described in the Didache:

 

From Chapter 15 of the Didache "But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents."

 

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

[John 12.24to28]

8 hours ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

OTHERS WHO MERIT HONOR
13 Those related to us in the faith certainly merit honor and respect. This is especially true of the elders who are taking the lead. (Read 1 Timothy 5:17.) We honor these brothers regardless of their nationality, education, social standing, or financial status. The Bible refers to them as “gifts in men,” and they are a key part of God’s arrangement to care for the needs of his people. (Eph. 4:8) Think of congregation elders, circuit overseers, Branch Committee members, and the members of the Governing Body. Our brothers and sisters in the first century had high regard for those appointed to take the lead, and we feel similarly today. We do not idolize well-known representatives of the Christian congregation or react in their presence as if angels were standing nearby. Still, we do respect and honor such brothers for their hard work and humility.—Read 2 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 19:10.
 

 

Showing honor to someone doesn't mean building them a castle complex by the lake because you hope they'll remember you and "pay you back when they're kings in heaven."

 

Showing honor to someone doesn't mean paying them to preach for you (or paying them to publish magazines and videos so you don't have to talk or think when you preach).

 

Showing honor to someone doesn't mean you enable them in a way that tempts them to disobey God's commands about working for their own living.

 

Showing honor to someone means treating them respectfully and caring about their welfare, both at present and everlasting welfare.

 

Showing honor to someone means being willing to tell them truth even when they don't want to hear it.

 

Showing honor to someone means protecting them from harm or warning them when they are in harms way.

[John 12.24to28]

That was the second century version of the elder book/OD book...already adding rules to the rules and mixing good scriptural counsel in with secular theory and Pharisaical traditions. Wheat and weeds growing together, leaven just starting to ferment the dough so it could spread together until the time of the end.

 

14 minutes ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

Chapter 2 contains the commandments against murder, adultery, corrupting boys, sexual promiscuity, theft, magic, sorcery, abortion, infanticide, coveting, perjury, false testimony, speaking evil, holding grudges, being double-minded, not acting as one speaks, greed, avarice, hypocrisy, maliciousness, arrogance, plotting evil against neighbors, hate, narcissism and expansions on these generally, with references to the words of Jesus. Chapter 3 attempts to explain how one vice leads to another: anger to murder, concupiscence to adultery, and so forth.

 

When Jesus comes, he'll remove the weeds.

 

@Space Merchant as regards those yucky videos (I didn't even want to watch them, the titles and picture was bad enough!😝) obviously Jesus would not want us to go and attempt to worship God with people dressed in drag taking the lead in worship. The Bible's counsel is clear about those who have a form of godly devotion but prove false to its power: "from these turn away." There is no need to make extra rules about secret judicial hearings. "From these turn away." Everybody can see that the person is in drag. There's no need for a committee meeting.🙂

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Jesus' illustration about a faithful slave was part of a set of illustrations talking about keeping on the watch. All Christians are commanded to keep on the watch. Jesus was NOT using that expression as a title or a label or a prophecy about a certain group of leaders. Jesus said "all you are brothers" and "call no one Rabbi or Leader for One is your Leader, God". When someone called Jesus "Good Teacher" he did not accept such a label. Why would Jesus have given such a title as "His Eminence, Most Holy Pope" or "Benevolent Leader" or "Faithful and Discreet Slave" to a man or a group of imperfect men who he told to stamp themselves down and behave as lowly ones? Here's the answer: Jesus didn't give them that title. They took it upon themselves. Shame on them. And shame on them for poisoning the publications with that teaching mixed in with God's Word.

One representative of WTJWorg, I think it was for the needs of a court case, openly admitted that the JW Corporation is structured the same as the Catholic Church, that is Hierarchical.

9 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Jesus didn't set up special schools. The Pharisees had special schools. Jesus didn't set up special publications. The Pharisees had special publications. The arrangement for a commune funded by "voluntary" donations is not scripturally based. The first century Christians were commanded to work for what they ate and not to live off of others. "If he doesn't work, let him not eat." Those who disobeyed such direction were to be marked and avoided. According to Paul's counsel, the Bethelites and the GB and the COs should all be marked and avoided. Certainly most of them are just ignorant to what the Bible teaches, but if they were to reread that chapter where Paul is talking about marking in context they would see it is completely misapplied by the organization. It is their behavior that should be shunned and avoided.

Agree! Collecting money is acceptable to help the poor and the afflicted, not for the needs of the Administration.

Tons and tons of paper, and now digital content of questionable value. Well, WTJWorg himself is destroying his old spiritual food and rejecting their value. Can we trust the current instructions that will end up in the spiritual graveyard in the future.

Additionally, I read that someone removed the pyramid from Russell's cemetery. WTJWorg owns Russell's grave right? Why was it important to do this? Because it reveals their spiritual origin.